Sorry about carrying such a negative tone in this blog, but I have to get this out of my system. Why aren't CRC checksums of alternative models, textures and maps being added to ezQuake? We can make QuakeWorld look good during tournaments right now. We can make QuakeWorld completely free (multiplayer wise) right now. We have the means to do this, but for some reason, nothing is being done.
PrimeviL has been working on making alternative textures for the original Quake models. These textures are very faithful, and holds very high quality. The g_models and v_models (world weapon models and first person weapon models respectively) have been debugged (how come nobody has done this until now?). To put it short, we have pretty much everything we need concerning alternative textures and models except for a certain player model which is cursed and will never be finished by anybody anyway.
These things need to be validated, their CRC checksums need to be included in ezQuake. People have been screaming for alternative models/textures to be accepted in the big clients (before ezQuake it was FuhQuake) for years. Yet nobody is doing anything about it. Nobody is listening to the outcry of the community. We don't want to be limited to having nice graphics only on certain models, we want consistency. We want QuakeWorld to evolve.
Then we have the pak1 maps, recently released under the GPL. Here we have all the possibilities of making Quake free yet nobody is doing anything about it. We have the textures required to replace at least the most played pak1 maps (which is a great start), so why don't we? Compile new maps, rename them, and throw in some nasty hacks to make playing on new as well as old servers possible with these open source maps.
Here are some suggestions / thoughts: * Make ezQuake detect the GPL maps and emulate the original ones (i.e. send the CRC checksum of the original dm6.bsp eventhough you only have dm6_gpl.bsp). * Make ezQuake detect the GPL map textures and "translate" them so the GPL maps will use the same 24-bit textures as the original maps. This will remove the need of having double 24-bit textures, or having two different texture packs available for download. * Make MVDSV accept the dm6_gpl.bsp CRC checksum, so clients other than ezQuake can play with the free maps at least on new servers.
Perhaps these suggestions are not possible to realize. However, my point is simple: the ezQuake security module either needs to be updated with new CRC checksums, or removed altogether. It's keeping QuakeWorld from evolving - which paradoxically is ezQuake's main goal.
Make a pack with the models, give me agreement of EQL and NQR people or at least a page where I can see many ppl validated it and it's included. Instead of writing this post you could have created a pack, post it on forums, let anyone say "yes" or "no".
The thing with maps is possible. However I haven't seen any gpl-ed dmX map yet.
You've reminded me that in current ezQuake there is a feature that gives you team overlay table (location, health, armor, weapon status of your teammates constantly updated) that is allowed in all rulesets and we have to start some discussion about it. Can't wait for the angry flamewars!
who knows, and this really nice feature for mixes, actually its nice in allot of aspects, qwers must stop live in stone age. QW nowdays is a really strange mixture of mm2 mm3 and what ever, target of this feature minimize mm2 usage in 2007 year, actually we can't get rid of mm2 but at least minimize.
Team overlay sounds like a joke to me tbh. Teamplay is about supplying the necessary information, and using it in the correct way together. Why not allow that radar in game while you're at it too?
Don't get me wrong, i really like ezQuake, but not features that may have a huge impact on gameplay.
I think teamoverlay and report %l is very similiar.
i was thinking maybe team-radar would be even better.
One would be able to do some skill rocket spam without depending on all teammates always reporting their location. Also u would get rid of vent stuff like "im coming thru tunnel" on dm3. With team-radar+overlay, focus would be on enemy movement only.
Yeap this would change gameplay a bit, but not for the worse imo.
But as razor said, this is the automatic vs manual debate.
Willgurth (and others), being able to rocket spam and hitting enemies instead of teammates is what seperates a good team from a bad team imho. Also, i enjoy teammate-kills-friendly-ring and i would hate to see that go away.
Seriously though, this is a pretty game altering feature. DM3 in particular COULD be affected a lot, eg. spamming window passage/ya-high passage from quad would be a no brainer with this. This feature can't be compared with improved graphics, built in server browser etc and thus it should be carefully implemented, if it should be at all, since it would potentially alter gameplay as opposed to esthetics. It wasn't long ago we banned autoreporting, and this would seem like a step backwards in that direction. Making QW into another game will, IMHO, not attract as much newbies as it would repell those already playing.
I'm not totally against the idea of this, i'm just saying we shouldn't implement everything just because it's possible.
(this is not speaking on NQR's behalf, only my own)
Yes, the radar would propably affect gameplay to much.
However team overlay is basicly the same thing as "report %h %l %powerups" Quake shouldnt be "fastest first person reader".
As it is now, i have 15lines of teamsay-spam on my screen. in those lines i can usualy see reports from all 3 teammates. With my clan using the same teamsay-syntax and vent it is easy and fast to find out if they r the ones making bunny-noise.
However i think this is silly, as it could be shown in a nice teamoverlay. I wouldnt mind players having to press 'report' button to update their info in the overlay in a non-automatic way. If this would be implemented this way, it would only be a textfiltering feature and help a lot in mixgames, where people use all kinds of fkd up teamsays.
Now that's something to think about. If it was updated by the players it would be a different thing. If we still had the "chatsound" and some indication in this overlay who just updated i'd personally support it, because as you say, some teamsays are a bitch.
I suggest make it as an option in KTX and anyone can turn it on or off just like fraglimit, timelimit or fallbunny. League can add it in the rules separately for each division. Maybe it's already done like that in KTX, guess it's enabled by default now on the only server it's available on - speciell. djevusk: No, it's fully automatical. I don't see the point in manuall updating, you would just flood the button through out the whole match, that's a bit dull.
"djevusk: No, it's fully automatical. I don't see the point in manuall updating, you would just flood the button through out the whole match, that's a bit dull."
I love the overlay idea. for less-flamewar purposes, i would propose allowing it in higher divisions now, (i mean when the new EzQ version comes out) and then slowly implement it to div3 div2 and div1. (like in September for div3 and 2 and next year for div1 - something like that)
I think its better to start with higher divs - more open minded ppl
You don't think that introducing a thing like this would make it even more impossible to break SR's matlock on DM2? It virtually removes the possibility of communication mistakes in a team.
you people are too focused on the old farts of qw... i think this should perhaps be voted on division based, and allowed/disallowed from season to season, depending on votes. or something. newbies will benefit from this.
Well i guess i am an old fart then. You see, there is a reason that i'm playing Quakeworld and it obviously ain't because of its huge player base. Sure, i might be looking after my own interests, but sometimes i feel that the trade off is too big to get new players. Silly or not, it's my opinion.
Johnny, the point of updating manually is that it doesn't happen automatic. Duh. Seriously, if it's manually updated it's like a billboard. Forget to post something, and obviously no one is going notice you. And that's exactly the point. There should be some skills with tp (i'm not claiming pressing the report button is the tp, but this would be a step towards autoreports again), not just running around shooting and still knowing the whereabouts of your teammates. The current state of teamplay in qw is what i like about it, i hope "you" (ezQuake developers, since you have practically "banned" fuh with that colored teamsay feature) don't implement even more of these features just because you can do it.
I'd rather see this feature left out, but if it should be implemented i sure hope it's manually updated so we're not back to autoreporting. Let's say you forget to report your status, just as today, you can still get killed @ ra-tunnel if your last report was @ ya.
I never liked q3 (nor it's team overlay) anyway, that's why i still play qw.
I'm guessing it will be implemented though so making it KTX toggable as you suggest yourself sounds vital. Perhaps 0/1/2 where it would be off/manually/automatic.
One more from me: When i say "banned" fuhquake, i meant rendered it useless because teamsays and scoreboards are chaos nowadays. However, i don't want to hijack this thread into a fuh/ezq discussion so nevermind this.
djevusk: Then everybody would bind it to their movement keys. Again, what's the point? I see manual vs. automatic difference like 1%, while off vs. manual difference like 99% Not only ezQuake implemented colored text. And there is no way to implement colored text so that it's backward compatible with previous clients. I'm not happy about it, but that's all I can do.
Noone ever told me "you cannot add this feature because clienty XY does not have it". But adding a feature that makes playing with older clients more complicated is something completely different.
Well Johnny, i guess precautions could somehow be taken to prevent people from binding this kind of report update to their movement keys. I'm no coder, but i assume it can be done in some way.
Empezar, adding exclusive features is one thing, making it incompatible with older clients is another. ezQuake adding independent physics, nicer graphics, serverbrowser etc didn't disturb any fuhquake users, where as colored teamsays (i guess it was a VERY important feature) fucked them royally. But smart move nonetheless since most fuhquake users are forced to make the switch, which i realize, in the long run is probably for the best.
if you play in a clan you can just have everybody use non-coloured teamsays. if playing mix i guess you're fucked. all id maps are GPL:ed. we just need someone to compile them with downscaled 24-bit textures so the ezQuake/MVDSV team have something to work on.
Empezar, if only it was just the teamsays. My scoreboards look like this: "&%#&¤W&¤%/¤"%"¤name. Perhaps limiting this feature to only teamsays ezQuake dev's? As my clan isn't using ezQuake we'd be happy to just continue playing with fuh and still being able to read our scoreboards.
Anyway, if all ID maps are GPL:ed, what's this talk about DM maps not being available?
i always hate when my teammates don't report. how can I play good tp if my teammates aren't? i know it's called "teamplay" and all but yelling at vent/ts/mm2 "report please" (or msg_triggers) is dull
fix and others, some extended explanation are welcome, why u dislike this feature.
Seems team messages not effective if even in div1 that bring so HUGE difference in gameplay? Logically this feature must affect low divs, but not high divs, no? :>
Talking about automatic vs manual, automatic reports always too spammy and annoying. I know only ONE auto message somehow useful, mega 20 seconds. Player death/respawn auto messages useless. Auto took? hm. back in time was some "smart" scripts but still too much drama about it.
QW changed nowdays, mm2 just a part or teamplay communication system, here used mm3 as well, not just mm3 or mm2, but mixture. Sure when I see mm2 only clan in div1 and this clan win mm2+mm3 I feel something like wow, respect, solid team work :> That why I enjoyed from fOm games in past :|
The extended explanation is that it makes it even harder to make mistakes within a team if you always know where your team mates are and what their status is. You probably won't ever kill team ring again as you could just look at the team overlay, zzz? The same goes for a lot of different occasions, like when coming from RA tunnel etc. Knowing what information to share with your mates at what time, and what to do when you get the information is a kind of definition of teamplay if you ask me (yes, i just made it up but wtf :p). With this thing, the first "criteria" is removed.
If you don't like the way your team (or any mix team) plays QW 4on4 atm, then don't change the game, change those players. :p
Can't accept such arguments, even div5 player spam comming ra-tunnel/lifts, for obvious reasons. I can agree about ring, but still that not cricial. Sure u can imagine additional examples, but that still QW with or without this feature.
Noone can change QW players and that not my'n point/busyness, and u knew this.
Noone actually can imagine really good example why its bad, ppl just lazy/get used to old good QW, any change treated as bad. That some psyhological issue, not even QW related, u does't want change something if u get used to it much.
I does't have energy/time to protect features, tho teamoverlay will be permanently ON in ezquake and optional and by default off in KTX, that mean if teamoverlay off in KTX it off in ezquake too, and vice versa.
qqshka, just because YOU don't find those arguments good doesn't mean they aren't good. Basically it's an auto-fucking-matic feature and automatic features is something we've been working on removing "lately". Sure a few people are positive in this thread (ezQuake developers + empezar and some more), but the majority have spoken out against it. Perhaps, if you can imagine that, it's because they believe in those arguments and not just say no because of "psychologial issues" so please, "accept" our arguments. What the hell is up with not "accepting such arguments" anyway?
There's no stopping ezQuake developers (which might be a good thing from time to time). And actually, i don't mind if you implement the whole of Q3 but i think it should be default off. Who knows, in time maybe the overlay will be accepted and so be it then. I'll be glad it it's KTX default off at least.
on in ezquake, off in ktx. if it's off in either -> it won't work. so having it turned off in ktx should suffice, no? this is something that some people might want to use, so even if you don't agree with it doesn't mean it should be removed. you can play with quake.exe with keyboard only and fov 90 if you want to, just don't force it onto everyone else. mmmmmmkay?
btw I get the count positive/negative (in this thread) to about 8-8 not that it matters though. you can't really take blog comments from random ppl as official votes from qw representatives and the people who are negative against this feature are more likely to comment here. wouldn't you say?
I'll quote myself for your sake Empezar: "I'm not totally against the idea of this, i'm just saying we shouldn't implement everything just because it's possible."
Which means i'm not against QW evolving, i'm just saying everything new isn't good just because it's fucking new, it MIGHT actually have a negative effect. Some consideration should, imho, be taken before implementing stuff as well as an discussion with the community. For the latter a comment thread on someone's blog might not be ideal (as maybe 5% of the community is aware of this blog).
And the whole "play with quake.exe and fov 90" argument is just fucking ridicilous (even more so than the aimbot analogy you complained about). Try to discuss this seriously or don't bother responding to my comments anymore.
team overlay is a great idea and should have been available for a long time now.
What is the idea behind to? To improve teamplay. You can see where your teammates go and what armor they have, easily in the one place. How is this different from flooding status messages that "move" in the upper corner of the screen? The only way it's different that it stays in the place, all the time.
Now, this is cheating, uh. Perhaps voice is cheating too, you can say too easily where the enemy is hiding "LOOK OUT, HE'S WITH RL BEHIND THAT WALL 1!!1", something what you can't do fast with normal point x messages (since it doesn't tell you the exact location). Team overlay doesn't even reveal any enemy statuses or powerups or their locations.
Pathetic.
I've played with voice for 2 or more years now. I don't even bother to watch team messages anymore, since it's way faster to just say "I can handle it, I'm loaded" or "coming from xxx" or "the enemy is weak". Sometimes I even might ask a teammate that "are you at xxx" to make sure I don't shoot him.
I must say I agree with qqshka on everything. Making qw to be even more teamplay friendly will make it a better game. If qw community isn't able to evolve, why should we continue to play the game anymore? Deathmatch is already dying away and more team-oriented gamemodes are taking it's place so I guess adding features that would improve the team aspect (not your ability to read 131287 messages in one second) wouldn't be that bad.
First, props to renzo for using a very provoking tone that will surely fuel the discussion
I've always had great respect for teams like fom and koff for their great communication. Saying that every team can spam their locations easily is true, but some teams handle it so much better than others that it makes a real difference.
Let's look at a few examples. On dm3, you are at ra-high and hear someone taking the nails or shells at the stairway. With the overlay in place, you can easily see if it's an enemy or a teammate. On dm2, you are waiting at quad-high (real high) and hear someone jumping down from up-tele. Without the team overlay you can't be so sure who it is, at least as quickly, so communication makes a difference again.
I guess it all comes down to one simple question: do we want to get rid of the differences that are caused by superior communication? Even though my team would benefit from this (as we don't communicate nearly as good as other div1-teams), I'm taking an opposing stance on this matter.
As for your examples, I guess the one who is coming deserves to be shot if he is not reporting himself. But still, you can report your position or "coming from" with one key or in the voice saying you're coming.
It's up to the player to report himself in such situations, so sure, it would be "easy" to see unreporting teammate doing his things. However, this does not affect only the other team since both teams can use the overlay. You would still have to report many things regarding the game, like powerups and rl-enemies.
Or are you "pro players" so hardcore that you wouldn't use the team overlay if it was there just to prove that you have "superior communication" with your team? If you really think that knowing better your teammates statuses affects qw so "badly" then why don't we just ban anything new or create "elite" tournaments and let the "shitty people who can't even play teamplay"" have their own leagues.
you all talk as if the team overlay window is linked to your brain. you actually have to read this text as well. and you will have to look at all the statuses, instead of the ones being flooded (i.e. are important). team overlay might make things harder for some people.
"As for your examples, I guess the one who is coming deserves to be shot if he is not reporting himself. But still, you can report your position or "coming from" with one key or in the voice saying you're coming."
True, but sometimes there is just so much action going on that some msgs get lost because two or three guys try to get their msg across by spamming it. Teams communicating well handle these situations better.
"Or are you "pro players" so hardcore that you wouldn't use the team overlay if it was there just to prove that you have "superior communication" with your team?"
Of course we (the pro players) would use it too. The margins between most teams within the same division are so small that it would be stupid to give unnecessary advantage just because our egos are inflated. It wasn't my intention to imply that the overlay would affect qw badly, I was just pointing out that it would smooth the differences in team-communication.
Also, I really enjoy the last part of your comment and hope that someone else will become agitated by it
I agree partly with marklar, but I couldnt disagree if div 4-6 players want to play with it to learn teamplay and have it easier to get into the world of 4on4.
If you have voice and team overlay, team messages become somewhat irrelevant. I noticed that I accidentally pushed report keys even if I didn't mean to. At first it was fairly difficult to use the overlay (actually I had to play few rounds with it at different locations before I found just the right place below normal message lines).
After all the testing I came to a conclusion that with voice I wouldn't use any other team messages if I had the team overlay. Also I found that reading team overlay in fast action is as hard as it is to read normal team messages... you can only see if your teammate is alive, if you have time to watch the overlay. It was easier to shoot at noises because I knew that my teammate was nowhere near the sounds were coming from... from time to time. There were still teamkills, because of the fast nature of the game, you don't always have the time to read any messages and you just shoot rocket or two to spawn when you hear someone die.
So my conclusion is that team overlay is a really good thing with voice considering the teamplay aspect. You can play much more efficiently against noises. Also you can see your teammates statuses all the time so you can react to situations more efficiently.
HOWEVER, there is one important thing: if one hasn't read the teammessages before, he won't be looking at the team overlay either. According to my experience it is really easy to lost focus on team overlay and just roam around. Also looking at it all the time will make you more vulnerable since you are not concentrating on the field and I found myself getting free damage from enemies since I wasn't quite aware at the time I was just watching the TO. This feature will benefit all the players, however I think it will benefit voice users even more.
I suggest that all the players (especially haters) test this feature a few rounds and see if it will be benefit them or not. My guess is that people who can actually read the chaotic team messages will benefit from this feature a lot more than lower level players that just check the damn thing occasionally (and lose their concentration at the same time ).
This is fucking ridiculous. Have you ever pondered who the fuck made that noise @ place x? Have you ever pondered things like could i go @ place y with my 5h rl? The change is too goddamn huge and i can't see why communication isn't part of teamplay. The tool is just too powerful elimanting many aspects of the current communication system. At least I enjoy the thrilling moments when im defending quad @ dm2 thinking who the fuck came through tele because the current communication system is pretty weak against predictions such as this(weak as in not nearly as powerful as a realtime overlay).
Renzos praising about this bullshit proves my point. "So my conclusion is that team overlay is a really good thing with voice considering the teamplay aspect. You can play much more efficiently against noises. Also you can see your teammates statuses all the time so you can react to situations more efficiently." No you don't do a goddamn thing the bullshit feature does this for you. It practically allows instant prediction from noise. Wuuhuu now that is great. The only good thing this bullshit has it could probably attract new players. But then again it would piss off a lot of people.
Ezquake devfucktards dont mess with my game. Long live fuhquake
To me seems like that many here dont consider the mm2+mm3/mm2/mm3 communication as a skill. I recall reading something "press report wow pro" bullshit here though can't be arsed to check it. No you fucktard its more like "know why&when to press it". Obviously you can't spam all the time reports but with this little baby it would be automatic. Long live automatic features.
The only argument you automatic feature lovers have is that it would contribute to other aspects in game but hey so do wh,aimbot,spiked models. Haha just had to say it.
" This is fucking ridiculous. Have you ever pondered who the fuck made that noise @ place x? Have you ever pondered things like could i go @ place y with my 5h rl? "
I can't but address your example. If you want to go to RA at dm3 with 5h and RL, would you go there if there weren't any teammates around (visible via TO, team messages or said in the voice?). Would you risk it? If the RA was empty, you'd get it, if not you'd surely be dead? TO does not tell you if there is an enemy. It tells if there is a teammate. Surely your teammate would use "safe RA" message from time to time to tell other teammates and RA is accessible and relatively safe? Of course it's easy just to check really fast if the RA is crowded by own people by TO but it is as easy to watch the safe line from normal teammessage (unless you have set the notify time low and text disappears fast). It is even easier to ask in the voice that "is it safe to go ra?", your teammates can respond to that telling no, I am here with full stuff but there is also two enemies around, something TO will NOT TELL YOU.
when considering TO you have to think about the things it tells you:
TO tells you: - where your teammate is - in what condition he is - what weapon he has
TO doesn't tell you: - how much ammo your teammate has - how many enemies are visible to your teammate - what is the condition of the enemy - what weapon your enemy has - are there even more enemies waiting behind the corner - when weapons/armor/ammo is accessible - where the enemies are going - what is the powerup respawn time - when armor/weapon/item is picked up - etc etc
Sure, it's easier to check in what condition your teammate is and where he is, but that is all the team overlay does. Does this decrease teamkills? Probably if you pay attention to TO. Does this increase your frags? Probably if you shoot at the noises. Now, if you knew some place wouldn't be safe, would you go there making noises? How is the enemy able to predict you are coming from somewhere if he didn't see or hear you coming?
There are lot's of things that needs to be considered here. The main point is IMO that how much information TO provides over existing mm2/mm3 and how much does that affect on situations.
Does this increase your frags? Probably if you shoot at the noises. Now, if you knew some place wouldn't be safe, would you go there making noises? How is the enemy able to predict you are coming from somewhere if he didn't see or hear you coming?
Of course there are situations where you will make the noise regardless you want or not, that's spawning or dropping from high enough. In this case you could know whether if it's the enemy or not. But what if there is already your teammate with sg only, enemy spawns near him and you don't check the death messages? You see one teammate with sg at the noise location on TO but not the enemy.
Use your brains and think about the possibilities.
Im kinda neutral about this team overlay thing. I don't think it would change the gameplay at all. At least not in the higher divs where teams already have good communication. You won't know all the locations all the time because you have to read the overlay just like normal messages.
I think that after you learn to read it often enough, the overlay just eliminates the effect of bad teammates who don't msg enough. Im sure it would smooth some of the differences in communication in lower divs, but i really think div1 games would stay pretty much the same. Of course allowing team overlay would make the game a bit easier for new players and help the low div teams to make their teamplay better. We all want more div1 teams right?
I don't really care if the overlay will be allowed or not, because i think it wouldn't change the game for me that much. Maybe the biggest difference for me would be in mixed 4on4 games.
I'll continue with the example hafog and renzo already talked about.
"TO does not tell you if there is an enemy. It tells if there is a teammate. Surely your teammate would use "safe RA" message from time to time to tell other teammates and RA is accessible and relatively safe?"
You can pretty much assume that there are no enemies if you know there is a teammate with 200/100/rl. And, as already mentioned, you get the information immediately without needing a response from your teammates. It let's them concentrate on what they were doing. I can only speak for myself but big part of the fun in 4on4 is trying to control a lot of things simultaneously.
Like gamer, I don't think team overlay is that big of a deal. I'd still vote against it though If the majority wants it, I have no problems playing along.
The feature will be left to players to decide if turn it on or off, same like with deathmatch 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 or fallbunny or any other mod settings. I don't really get the point of most of the posts here. Does the presence of the "deathmatch 6" mode dumb down the game? Only Renzo did contribute something usefull for me by really trying it and sharing his experience with us. Seriously, shut the fuck up oh, almost forget.. *JohnNy_cz kisses Hafog*
No it doesn't dumb down the game - unless DMM6 would become standard in all tournaments possible! I don't care what stuff you throw into the client to be honest, i care at what stuff actually gets used at tournaments. But even having those kind of things in the client would make it more probable that they become standard and would ruin the utopia called QW, ghaoihoiha!
ghaoihoiha! Ok, I get the point. But in the end, it can only be the majority of the players themselves who has the potential here to "dumb" down the game. And if they do it, maybe the game deserves it. But no, that's not the way I want to defend changes in QW.
We added it, because we developers really think that it's "good", not only because it is possible to implement it. We really do think deeply about everything we do. Time to write a post with the thoughts that just jumped in your mind is much smaller then the time a developer spends on thinking and implementing the feature. I wish some people here instead typing and typing rather thinked twice. First try the feature during the real game and then give us feedback.
Let's not flood Empezar's blog anymore and continue here - http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=19663
the biggest thing i noticed was that it's way easier to see if your team has a powerup or not, other than that i didn't really use the overlay window for anything, sometimes to check if an area was "safe"
yeah, it help with powerups, amount of team RLs (really help in mix i think), and safe areas, still better to spam comming ra-tunnel/lifts at least before u get used to TO :>
102
News