Age :38
Group: Member
Location: Czech Republic
Did spend a lot of time playing QW and developing ezQuake back in the day.
Maps  /  20 Dec 2009, 16:42
Why QW needs five 4on4 maps
I am going to explain why I think that QuakeWorld needs 5 maps in standard 4on4 map pool.
The skill of a clan is given by individual skill of the players and the level of team-play or cooperation they can put together. The cooperation can be also divided into routine cooperation and adaptive cooperation.

Routine cooperation is something that a clan learns during the practicing and uses without any change during the game. Known approaches are used in known conditions.

Adaptive cooperation is the ability of a clan to react on a new, unprecedented condition in the game with the most appropriate action quickly and efficiently. The players don't have any established routine on the current situation, but are able to quickly adapt cooperatively - mostly by a quick and efficient communication, combined with common sense.

The most interesting games are those where all the three factors of the clan skill come in play and depend on it. That is when the game isn't dominated solely by the individual skills of the players, perfected routine cooperation cannot replace the lack of ability to adapt and vice-versa - a clan which doesn't have any routine knowledge about the map should be affected by it.

If the performance of a clan doesn't depend on some of the three clan skills, that particular skill becomes irrelevant in the game and the game gets less exciting - both for the players and the audience.

Small map pools
Very small map pools (for example 1 map only) extinguish the need for both adaptive cooperation and routine cooperation. With the map getting played long enough, a clan gets something close to "absolute knowledge" of the map - that is they know what to do in every possible scenario - ability to adapt to something new becomes irrelevant as there never (or very rarely) is something new to react to.

Also with high enough amount of practice games the number of clans that reach the "absolute knowledge" increases.
Then the only thing that differences top clans is the remaining factor - individual skill of the players.

Large map pools
Too large (infinite) map pools emphasize the routine cooperation too much. A clan needs only a small amount of time to get "at least some" knowledge of a map totally unknown for the opponent to gain domination on that map. The other two skills become very insignificant, or at least players spent most of the time getting trivial knowledge of many maps - something that is not very interesting in a tournament environment.

Adaptive cooperation comes in play only when clans are not able to surprise their opponents with unknown maps and it's not possible for too many clans to get something close to "absolute knowledge" of majority of the maps. That is - when map pool is both not too small and not too large.

Most of the opposers of the "TB5" map pool don't want the adaptive cooperation to be a significant skill of a clan. In their opinion the game should be decided only by the knowledge of the map (= known team-play situations) + individual skills.

I think that is the keystone in the current "TB3 vs TB5" debate. There are many other aspects for and against certain maps or for or against TB3, but the core of the argument I think always will be in the three skills.
The knowledge of the TB3 maps nowadays got very high and is removing the adaptive cooperation skill significance.

In duels in QuakeWorld the trend is to emphasize individual skills together with routine knowledge of a map (by a single player). The adaptive skill was more or less removed from the "standard tournaments" and appears nowadays in the "Kenya" tournaments, where only new maps are played - players don't have enough time to get superior knowledge of the map, as the map name gets announced only a few days before the tournament. What mostly decides the game there is the ability to adapt. (That's why I recommend KTK to everyone - it's a great new experience.)

In my opinion for 4on4 the course in QuakeWorld should be different. Games should not depend only on individual skills and routine cooperation, but the adaptive cooperation factor should matter too. It's the core of the "team-play" - the ability to cooperate in many ways - both by known routines and in an adaptive (dynamic) fashion. It should be made sure that getting near to absolute knowledge of majority of maps (2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, ...) becomes an unreachable goal.


Note: The procedure to select these maps should be to let the players vote for top 5 popular maps. That is because everyone should have a fair chance to assume which maps have a potential to be played in (future) tournaments and have a chance to practice most or all of them in advance. Such selection also brings the most "fun factor" as most of the players are playing their most popular maps.

Therefore it is not important if it's gonna be TB3+cmt1b+cmt3 or any other combination of maps. What is the "most popular five" is always good.

P.S.: When increasing standard map pool size (like now in EQL10 from 3 to 5 maps), typically two problems occur:
1) some clans don't practice new maps at all
2) the level of the game-play on the added maps is significantly lower.

The first problem is solely the individual problem of the given clan. Every clan has the same amount of time available to practice and get better. This approach is absolutely fair and the problem is in my opinion irrelevant for the debate.
Second problem is relevant and I think cannot be avoided anyhow. In the long term, however, clans get more and more time to practice and if the map pool is stable, the level of game-play can get very close to the "TB3".
2009-12-20, 17:38
While the theory in general may be correct in many ways, I think what you get wrong is what people generally find interesting. People want to see good players playing what they are good at. Playing soccer world cup finals in an ice hockey rink would certainly put the soccer players in an unprecedented situation and force them to adapt, but that is not what people want to see, nor what the players want to play.
2009-12-20, 18:12
bit of an extreme example, but if you're gonna go the sports route, federer should definitely complain for playing on that kenya clay surface ;[
2009-12-20, 20:33
I think they would all complain if they had to start playing tennis on ice or soft sand. Generally people are happy with the same old tennis court surfaces that have been around forever. No one is demanding new types of surfaces because the current selection is "blocking new players entering the game", or some other insane argument.
2009-12-20, 21:24
alright i guess your analogy wins, cmt maps are like playing football on ice, how slippery ;[
2009-12-20, 21:24
The reason they'd be unhappy with that is because the surfaces are unsuitable, and I know you don't think cmt1b is unsuitable for qw 4on4.
2009-12-20, 21:41
No one is demanding new, suitable surfaces either. Tennis players and spectators are generally happy with their age old tb4.
2009-12-20, 21:43
Gameplaywise football on ice would be higher level than qw on cmt1b.
2009-12-21, 07:52
Several good points here, but after watching some of the cmt1b matches this year, I'm not so sure anymore. Think it would be a good idea to determine pretty soon whetever upcoming EQL's are gonna be BO3 or BO5, and if BO5, which maps its gonna be and stick with that for quite some time.

Seems that the adaptive skill that you called it dissapeared quite fast when the top clans decided to tear the cmt1b map apart while most of the rest didn't bother to even prac it. Of course its those who didn't play it fault, but sure didn't result in many interesting games on that map.
2009-12-21, 10:59
Blah, in my opinion you will always need all those skills no matter how well you know a map. Even in dm3 there are unexpected situations all the time. The only talent you won't need is fast learning. That's important for those pro-players who always pick up the latest game for money tournaments. They have to learn fast, not to be great, just better than others at that point. Then they move on to the next game. But to apply that skill we would have to swap the whole map pool to completely new one a short time before the season every time and it's not a skill that I'm presonally interested in measuring.
2009-12-21, 17:07
It's all Links fault.
2009-12-21, 17:12
Rikoll, sure some of the teams didn't know CMT1b in its first season, but look how many close CMT3 games and upsets there were. Even the mighty USSR, whose players have it as their home map for years, were felled on it a number of times.

You can't expect intimate knowledge to appear instantly, and the next season will be better. CMT1b is already HUGELY popular compared to CMT3 last season. To throw it away now just seems impatient.
2009-12-21, 19:41
Before this season I said games in kenya are low quality and they were. Now I say that there wont be a big change for next season and I will be right again. cmt1b was popular because now was the time to take competitive edge with it, not because anyone thought it would create great games. cmt3 rounds might have been more tight, but not because the quality of gameplay was high, but because it's individual skills based ffa map.
2009-12-21, 19:48
Im up for blaming Link for everything bad in this world as well.
2009-12-21, 20:23
"Some teams picked it to get a competitive edge, but why didn't clans do that in previous seasons with other maps? It might seem like a small change, but it's progress!"

It used to happen all the time with CMT4 and to a lesser extent CMT3/E2M2TDM. My own clan played CMT4 in NQR5/6 because we knew we were pretty much guaranteed to take one round. In some of those NQR seasons you also had clans choosing exmy maps (e.g. SSC and FNU with E3M7) for the same reason.

Edited by gaz on 22 Dec 09 @ 16:15CET
2009-12-22, 00:00
blAze wrote: "..cmt1b was popular because now was the time to take competitive edge with it, not because anyone thought it would create great games."

Exactly god damn right. The games was pure shit, boring as hell to both play and watch. Just face it, there is not enough time or interest to bring ANY cmt-map up to a dm3/dm2 level of gameplay.

"Lets choose cmt1b cause we now clan X have played it 2 times total..".. Let's just say that if im gonna play next season I won't vote for other than TB3.
2009-12-22, 00:07
not to mention the level of gameplay on e1m2, it calls for pure skills!
2009-12-22, 00:27

There hasn't been a map as "new" in the league before. Now it was possible to play games against teams who had never played the map. cmt3 and cmt4 has been around throughout the history of EQL.

I too voted for kenya fog, but now I see that it was a mistake. For me it's a bit difficult because as a competitive player I knew we will be able to prac new maps and get advantage, so it's kind of my responsibility to vote to maximize our chances, even though personally I hate speccing that boring shit.
2009-12-22, 00:58
Which brings me to one more point that I've been thinking. Players' primary goal is to win games. Admins' primary goal is to create a great league. Sometimes these two goals collide. That's why even a fair vote does not necessarily bring the optimal result. Because when voting players' think "how can we win", not "what makes the league a success". So ideally admins simply realize the situation and make the next season more interesting and high quality.
2009-12-22, 01:28
Yes from an admins perspective there is certainly both positive and negative things with asking the teams about the map pool. The negative being that they don't care about whats best for the league but whats best for them and the positive being able to use the poll to support a decision.

It is because of this that a poll never should decide anything just help the admins decide.
2009-12-22, 03:39
It seems to me that the primary motivation for many people when it comes to rejecting new maps is fear of disadvantage or fear that they won't be competent on new maps while other more talented players overtake them, so "players' primary goal is to win games" applies to both sides of the argument.

In fact, before this year I was almost certain that insecurity and fear of the unknown were the only reasons anyone would reject new good maps. The ignorant calls of "LOLOL KENYASHITMAP" from people who had, at that time, never even seen it before served only to reinforce that. Now I think that to assign basely selfish motives to every single person in this debate is unreasonably cynical.

Reactionary, dismissive people like that are incredibly common, and deserve no consideration when the map pool is being selected, nor do the people who only want extra maps because they want some kind of advantage.

The map was new this season and some clans had never played it before. Now they have. With 6 bo5 games left to play in the playoffs, it has received 28 official plays so far (sure to exceed 5 times as many as cmt3 last season), and just today I was showing a hesitant clan a few of the more useful tricks and tactics, increasing their knowledge of the map so that they could compete at a higher level.

The problem is that you don't hear of a player's quiet acceptance of a map, because they just play. You only see the people like you and me who are adamantly opposed or for extra maps, spamming like madmen on this site trying to convince our invisible audience of the righteousness of our arguments.
2009-12-22, 12:59
As a player and audience member I must say most of my excitement comes from close matches. How we get there is less important. This is why we have division levels in tournaments now (it wasn't always so).

You can't do anything about people knowing tb3 inside-out. You can't do anything about some people never learning new maps or being slower to do so. It becomes a problem when you place both kind of players and maps in same tournament. The whole division skill level structure collapses.

Div3 bronze match last round was cmt1b in which ChoseN crushed 44, after three good fights on tb3. Did ChoseN dominate because we had practiced and deviced a strategy for this map? No, we had played it a couple of times before. And adaptive cooperation skill in ChoseN is close to zero I assure you. We won because we had two players who had played the map in mixgames. After a couple of minutes, one of them got quad-shaft and all of 44 was dead. What the other two players did was mostly irrelevant.

SR-FOM semi was somewhat similar.

Ok, let's assume the scene sticks to this tb5 pool for next five years. What have we gained? More variety in gameplay? Yes, but not a great deal, as cmt3 is a very simple map and while cmt1b is more creative, both are still close to dm3. And the adaptive skill-thing would be gone again? Skill gaps would be more consistent between maps, but still not as close as with tb3.

Please next tournament with tb5 and bo3 have it so that each clan tosses a map and then picks a map. Otherwise we will start to have clans with a clear home map. They will improve more on this map than others, and again we have more skillgaps...
2009-12-22, 14:12
Indeed, even if we would stick to this map pool for 5 years, at best we will get basically to where we are now with tb3. So, a lot of work, ruined seasons, bad games, just to get to where we already are. And when finally ppl know these two cmt maps like they know tb3, and we finally get some high quality games in them, what then? Start all over with new maps, because we need something new... This whole vicious circle seems so pointles, when all this time we could concentrate on playing top notch games instead of this mess about NEW maps.
2009-12-22, 14:21
Stev seems to think that simply the amount of played rounds in cmt1b is some kind of achievement, but have you looked at what kind of rounds these were? In div1 every cmt1b was one sided rape. Would be interesting to get a comparison of the amount of one sided rapes between these seasons, instead of how many times a map was played, which really isn't all that interesting when thinking about what actually makes a season successfull and interesting.
2009-12-22, 15:14
Kalma: you won cmt1b so much mostly because one or two M44 players basically stopped from playing and were almost completely idling.
blAze: What about dm3 as the only map in 1 map map pool for all tournaments? How would you defend it's a bad idea? I guess lack of variety? Then why does +dm2 and +e1m2 add just enough variety? Or some other argument?
2009-12-22, 15:57
I wouldn't, I like dm3. The good thing about dm2 and e1m2 though is that you can add variety without loosing quality of gameplay, because they are established maps. It's not so much about the right amount of variety, it's about the tradeoff between variety and quality of gameplay. Beyond tb3, you can't add variety without taking massive steps down in the quality of gameplay.
2009-12-22, 16:43
blAze 'Before this season I said games in kenya are low quality and they were. Now I say that there wont be a big change for next season and I will be right again.'

actually you said cmt1b is a crap map and it's badly designed or whatever. you were wrong btw.

cmt3 and cmt1 together were played twice as often as e1m2 this season. lots of nice upsets and close games that would have been boring and one-sided otherwise, mainly thanks to cmt3.
compared to last season that featured cmt3 the maps popularity has increased like tenfold (by times played).
new maps need some time to become accepted (something *i* said before last season btw) and once they are they become a new playing field where old and new players alike can have exciting and more even matches.

all expected whine and bellyaches from old players aside i consider this eql season with cmt maps a full success.
2009-12-22, 16:52
"actually you said cmt1b is a crap map and it's badly designed or whatever. you were wrong btw."

I guess the fact that you have to resort to such blatant lies tells about the strength of your arguments.
2009-12-22, 16:57
Stay with this mappol ffs. Now when we have played cmt1b for one season most of the ppl knows the map. And i gues its like some of u said, many clans dont choose cmt3 becaus they dont know if they are bether than the other clan. But its a good map.
2009-12-22, 17:49
#24 It makes no difference to my point if we win by 150 or 250 frags. It was a crushing with only two players having proper map knowledge.

Re: EQL map stats:
Clan TKs alone made 25% of cmt1b picks. At least ChoseN picked always the map we thought we had the biggest edge on, not what we liked.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think US scene had 1-map pool: 4on4: dm3 and 1on1: dm6. UK-scene had bigger pool with some custom maps included? Then those scenes all but died and the remnants copied Nordic system of tb3. Not to forget the times when you could pick any(?) exmx, which was obviously terrible.

I'm repeating myself but, more maps:
+ more variety
- more skill gaps
- more "home-mappiness"
- can't play all maps in one normal match. bo3 takes about one hour on average. (for duels and 2on2 bo5 is fine with the 10min rounds)
2009-12-22, 18:12
Some personal thoughts/experiences

I dont see any reasons for new maps, I rather just buy a completly new game and play new maps there instead. It doesnt matter that I nowdays "know" for exampel aerowalk and ztndm3, after five minutes of gametime I start to yawn and when the game is over, I need to go to bed and sleep just by plain booringness, no matter if I win or loose.

If you need tb5 for...well, I dont really know why, use existing ExMx maps.
TB3 or ID1TB5 for next season, otherwise you have definatly lost one player. But who knows, maybe you gained 5 new players with tmcb1 & mtc3. =)

And what blAze says is very much true, "People want to see good players playing what they are good at."
c u next season?
2009-12-22, 18:18
What about BO5 with 10 minutes per round?
I shouldn't have responded to ChoseN - M44 anyway, my blog talks about that case.
2009-12-22, 19:35
I proposed shorter rounds in a forum thread once, but it's too radical I guess. :/ Some sort of "frag difference/remaining time" equation would shorten the boring rounds.
2009-12-22, 21:08
#27 you said cmt1 is not a good 4on4 map. later you realized your error (kudos) and said that it's actually a decent map.

so yea, you didn't really predict the outcome of this season as perfectly as you'd like to make us believe. if it was for you and for the endless horde of 'lol kenya sucks'-callers we wouldn't play 'decent maps' as cmt1 in competetions.
2009-12-22, 21:20
Kalma: Yea, Baseball has such a mercy rule at least. ( A certain frag difference (200+?) with a min. playing time (10 mins?) maybe? I think this a worth considering.
2009-12-22, 22:00
dEus, where have I ever said that?
2009-12-22, 22:07
200+ within 10 min is such a rare thing that it's not worth it to have specific rules for such a situation. I think we have seen many dm2 where the fullstart team takes a 100-0 lead, but eventually there will be a comeback.

IMO 10 minutes is too short for a tdm game.
2009-12-22, 22:20
Ok I guess I said it didn't seem like a good 4on4 map when I first saw it. That doesn't change the fact that I was 100% right to predict the low quality of games played in it. Not one single interesting round was played in cmt1b in div1. Not one. For next season I'd predict there will be maybe one interesting round, because the map knowledge is a tiny bit higher now.
2009-12-22, 23:23
blAze: With "min. playing time" I meant at least 10 minutes of playing, i.e. a TL of 10 at least, not that a team has to achieve +200 frags in 10 minutes. Also, it is an arbitrarily chosen value and not set in stone. :p
2009-12-23, 00:21
Someone else suggested just plain 10min. Yeah your suggestion might work. In fact you could even ditch the whole 10 min and just say that which ever comes first, 200 frag diff or 20 minutes will end the round. But with tb3 and sensible divisions there shouldn't be that big rapes. Mercy rule might save some frustration, but there would still be something seriously wrong with the divs or map pool for such scores.
2009-12-23, 00:44
An extra TL might be not necessary at all, yea. What goes for the necessity of a mercy rule: I've been burned before. :p
2009-12-23, 10:01
This is how I interpret what is said (over and over). Obviously simplfied

1: (horatio) arguin that tb3 is good enough
2: (blAze) arguing that games should be played on known maps.
3: JohnnyCz saying that we need five maps.
4: (stev) Cmt1b is the shit
5: (willg) tb5 and cmt4 is the shit (but a consisten map-pool is more important than cmt4)
6: (inferno): tb3 or DmX+eXmX

#1-#3 all sounds reasonable. Maybe the compromise between 1-3 is tb4 or tb5, with a tb3 map as decider

To me #4 and #6 makes least sense to me. Adding cmt1b in it self doesnt achive anythin. Unless the community accpts a tb5 includin it. And why alternetve to quality maps like e1m, dm2 or dm3 should be a mix of the disaters that is most episode maps is beyond my understanding.
2009-12-23, 10:27
Bring back e3m7 and e2m2!
2009-12-23, 11:12
5 map pool of TB3 + e3m7 + e1m3 would be the perfect solution!
2009-12-23, 14:36
#39 blAze: you just degraded your opponent in the semi so how can you justify saying something like that.

I don't think you can blame the mappool or divisions for rape scores. In fact, I think TB3 would increase the number of such scores because you take away the opportunity of the lesser clans to pick a kenya map with a tighter game as result
2009-12-23, 18:56
Perhaps I haven't been clear in the past, but the most important thing to me is a consistent pool of 5 strong maps. The reason I push 1b is because I don't like the dynamics of cmt4, which emphasise individual skill far more than the others, and there don't seem to be many reasonable alternative maps.
2009-12-23, 21:33

Yeah we scored over 200 diff on one map there. Exception to the rule I guess. There were many tight rounds in tb3 though, but none in cmt1b. cmt1b was basically teams who had time and motivation to prac raping those who didn't, so your theory of lesser teams doesn't seem to apply for this season at least.

I have to disagree with Stev, cmt1b is probably the most individual skill based map after cmt3. In cmt4 you need some real co-operation for the pents. What I also like about cmt4 is that the map maker has not been confused whether he is making a trick map or a tdm map...
2009-12-23, 23:43
tb3 for lajf
2009-12-24, 04:18
The pents were always awesome about cmt4 (one of my favourite features on any map), but it was always far too easy for one single guy to turn the map over and rape absolutely everyone with the 57 available cells, relatively uncontrollable RA, lack of significant choke points, and quad.
2009-12-24, 07:39
The ways you have to CS vs an enemy quad differs. Some cmt4 "choke points": water, teleporters, ya-lift etc..
But if you dont like the CTF-ish style gameplay of cmt4, it's your loss .

The sad thing is that cmt1b and cmt4 would add more diversity to tb5 than cmt3+cmt4/cmt1b. Because cmt3 is just a dumbed down version of dm3
2009-12-24, 14:47
we need new large and diverse maps for 4on4. maps that provide some new and interesting gameplay, not more dm3's with pent/quad/shaft/rl.

distrans? #terrafusion? where to ask?
2009-12-24, 14:52
hopefully SATAN CLAUS reads this blog... merry christmas qw!
2009-12-24, 18:07
Satan claus! He's the evil twin brother?
2009-12-24, 20:57
nice article johnny_cz .. though I don't really agree with you (pro tb3 \o/), any article that generates such a discussion is good
2009-12-25, 00:06
Regarding #50: its fun its almost always ppl from the lower divs that knows best what the qw-scene needs.. Its like div5 football club telling zlatan how football should be played.. I say let the div1 veterans decide
2009-12-25, 10:42
#54 you mean Milton? or we should maybe let you decide (you are div 1 after all)?
2009-12-25, 12:52
let winner of eql decide!
2009-12-25, 13:03
Something tells me the winner of EQL will be as split about the issue as the whole QW scene is :E
2009-12-25, 13:56
then let the winners of eql10 decide in an internal duel tournament!
2009-12-25, 15:01
but only on dm2/dm6 and dm4 !!
2009-12-25, 17:23
#54 div4 actually played the least cmt1b and in div3 only one clan wanted to play it. There are veterans in all divs.
2009-12-26, 09:39
Uh, in div3 it was also played in games ChoseN vs Osams and Quinas vs Magnum 44.
2009-12-26, 13:50
Yea, but we (Osams) only chose it to piss Horatio off.
2009-12-27, 23:24
i wasnt pissed tho, we fucking owned them! (thats what new maps are all about!)
2009-12-28, 10:50
And in the bronze game vs m44 we had to play it (cmt1b) since we ran out of tb3s with the score 2-1 in a bo5 game!
2009-12-28, 13:32

i agree that it would be nice with a new map that didnt look or played like dm3. It does not have to be large tho.
2010-01-28, 14:38
To blazes arguments, I am surprised you seem to take some pride in "predicting" that the games of lower quality will be the ones of cmt1b. Duh? Of course it won't be as high quality, but it won't take the 5 years you suggest to get it to the level of dm3, closer to about 4-8months I would say - I am pretty certain that I can tell you the optimal strategy on cmt1b and I've been playing the game for 4 months - yes this is an arrogant claim whether true or not, but no more arrogant than the arguments coming from a lot of div1 players. Also this map has far more interesting dynamics than cmt4 as far as teamplay and strategy goes, as far as quakeworld goes.. quakeworld is an amazing game, if only there weren't this rabid hatred towards new maps, the gameplay could be explored and meta-game developed even further with the current skill level.

To fog saying div1 players should decide? Well, there's a few really great arguments why that's stupid in this context:

1. Div1 players are very elitist and it's always the case that the elite will just do whatever it takes to make sure they stay on top, this is a fact in -anything- (not all elite but the majority).

2. A large number of Div1 players now are very conservative, there are several reasons for this. Firstly, the majority of the super talents of division 1 are gone, what's left are players who are talented of course, but not on the level of the previous div1 legends. These players achieved div1 because they developed their entire game via practice and copying on the maps for xx years and would suck a penis before seeing that investment get destroyed - although they would be wrong there (despite this lower level of gameplay being a continuing argument).

In conclusion, quakeworld is actually the only deathmatch game that I've come across for 4on4 that seems very very mapping friendly due to its advanced mechanics, I stated, why would a mapper even bother to make a competitive 4on4 map in this community? Players spent 10years learning how to play on dm3 dm2 e1m2, if they gave it a chance, they would see that their skills, knowledge and understanding could adapt to new maps as well.

I feel terrible that I have such a strong opinion for new maps, but I'm not an idiot who doesn't understand 4on4, nor am I someone who has spent more than half a year in this community. So do whatever you wish, I'm not entitled to an opinion yet most likely, but I'm just planting some seeds, I just hate that reasoned argument is overthrown with tainted agenda from elite and conservative players.
2010-01-29, 10:46
The best argument came from kalma way up there.

If we add new maps we will have lower quality games while trying to learn them and when we finally know them as we know tb3 someone will cry for 2 more maps because tb5 is now boring and the game needs more maps... never ending circle of fail
2010-01-29, 11:25
Ah it was both kalma and blaze who built that together
2010-01-29, 19:19
"and when we finally know them as we know tb3 someone will cry for 2 more maps because tb5 is now boring and the game needs more maps..."

how can that possibly be a bad thing? you already completely refuse to learn it now because we want some of the cmts to get played more (again). so what would make you think you are going to learn 2 extra ones on top of that when you've FINALLY learned the cmts?! the extra maps you fear don't even exist, this is complete lunacy.
2010-01-29, 23:10
it is a bad thing because it takes a lot of bad games to learn them and when almost everyone have done so someone like you will ask for more maps since the tb5 are too old and repetetive just like now with tb3
2010-01-29, 23:15
dont worry, someone will make some new maps (im not saying they cant be good, just new) also im not totally against new maps, just bad maps...

as ive said before, i would like to try out schloss and grim some more because i dont think that cmt3,cmt4 or cmt1b are the answer... (perhaps schloss and grim wont work either but atleast we can try them some more)
2010-02-02, 12:31
I can remember when I was trying to convience a few Austrian Players to join my Quakeworld Clan. We began to play EQL and we really suck on tb3 ( because the level was so high) but fortunately there was CMT4 and we managed to win or at least dont be raped on this map, and motivation of the whole team rises, to prace tb3 and cmt4 as well. So this was a good example for me, that new maps could motivate new players to stay in the game for a while because the have some winning experience.
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