Tournaments
VVD  /  31 Dec 2015, 23:02
Thunderdome news
I made small statistical analysis of played maps in Thunderdome.
Most popular maps are:
1) aerowalk - 550 times, ~24%;
2) ztndm3 - 521, 23%;
3) dm4 - 494, 22%.
Less popular maps are:
4) dm6 - 382, 17%;
5) dm2 - 315, 14%.

Aerowalk keeps same 24% all 5 seasons. Popularity of ztndm3 and dm4 increased from 21.5% in 1st season to 23.6/23.4% in 5th season. Dm6's popularity decreased from 19% to 13%. Dm2's changed from 14% to 13% in 4th and to 15% in 5th.

But the most interesting is popularity of picked maps - 1st and 2nd played maps in games (according to statistics from 1st season to 5th which is shown in the graphic below): here.

Full table with statistics is avalaible here.

Let's take a closer look at numbers for dm2. It was picked as a first or second map in about 9% of the games, but makes 14% of total played. The same is true for dm6 with 14.5% and 17% according. For example aerowalk was picked as first choice in 27% of the games and makes 24% in total.

What is explanation for this gap?
Answer is obvious - almost nobody picks maps like dm6 and dm2 as his home maps and play those only if inevitable.

As a result I decide to adjust the map pool! But just replacing one map to another is too «dictatorial» from one player to community so I've come up with the following idea for season 6 (sign-ups will start at February):
1) added 6th map to map pool - bravadob5 (IMHO, best of all non-tb5 maps I played);
2) 3 less popular maps - dm2, dm6 and dm4 are free for players "pick vote".

Pick vote from above has to be hold this way:
1) before the game players have to remove one map from map pool for this game: every player picks one map from tb3 (dm2, dm6 and dm4) to keep it in map pool, remaining map is removed from map pool for this game (aerowalk and ztndm3 can't be removed from map pool as the most popular maps, bravadob5 can't be removed because it's a new map);
2) winner must write in comments what map was removed from the pool;
3) most often removed map will be removed from the map pool for season 7 of Thunderdome (planned on September of 2016).

By this change I hope to maintain the pool of new and popular maps. This should bring some fresh wind and dynamic into the tournament. We are going to search for another candidate for the map pool of season 8 (2017).
2015-12-31, 23:38
Today, 00:02.

Man, go drink something, it's New Year

3) most often removed map will be removed from map pool for season 7 of Thunderdome (planned on September of 2016).

a mistake.
2015-12-31, 23:47
It's 00:02 CET = 23:02 UTC = 02:02 MSK.
2016-01-01, 12:38
Nice! Creative and progressive thinking.
Bravadob5 is actually a nice map.
2016-01-01, 16:45
Thanks, bps!

2016-01-01, 17:45
Have you considered skull?
2016-01-01, 18:44
Yes to new maps, but a big NO to removing one of the TB3 maps.
2016-01-01, 19:28
I'm not sure about the relevance of those statistics, but about time some tournament admin with balls decided to do something about the mappool. Kudos to you, VVD.

Bravado wouldn't be my first pick, but anything is better than to have to play both dm2 and dm6.
2016-01-01, 19:44
Good job with Thunderdome VVD! Keep it up!
2016-01-01, 19:44
Sounds OK but dropping map part would be better if U could drop from tb5 than tb3 as some ppl still might enjoy dropping one "Kenya"map etc but good idea in general
2016-01-02, 08:28
I hope the next move will be to remove DM4, so 1on1's will eventually become much more interesting and much less luck based
2016-01-02, 16:56
I hate DM4 and suck there, but luck based? No.
2016-01-02, 18:41
> Have you considered skull?
Yes, ofc - I know it more than 10 years. And I don't like it at all.

> but a big NO to removing one of the TB3 maps.
I think with the extended pool maps like dm2 and dm6 would be ignored at all - why we have to keep dead maps in the map pool?

> I'm not sure about the relevance of those statistics
You can ask me and I'll try to explain.

> dropping map part would be better if U could drop from tb5 than tb3
No. We'll drop only less popular maps. We can't drop 1 from 2 maps, but can 1 from 3 - every player can to vote.

> as some ppl still might enjoy dropping one "Kenya"map etc but good idea in general
Why they didn't pick not kenya maps in tournament? May be just almost nobody like to play dm2 and dm6? Why we have to keep dead maps in the map pool?
There are players who like map more kenya maps - ultrav, pkeg1, ztndm6, rf2, rwild and etc.
Is it argument to add these maps to pool?

> I hope the next move will be to remove DM4, so 1on1's will eventually become much more interesting and much less luck based
I hope too, but statistics saying to remove only dm2 and dm6 now…
2016-01-03, 08:53
> I think with the extended pool maps like dm2 and dm6 would be ignored at all - why we have to keep dead maps in the map pool?
I like dm2, it's always my 1st choice map... I realise I'm the minority, though.
2016-01-03, 17:15
Well, it shouldn't always be about what maps people like playing for funsies. Suitability for competition should be a significant factor.

On that note, I recommend "doomed" for any future map pool consideration.
2016-01-03, 23:42
How about everyone signed up for next T season just vote between maps. Then you could add more kenyas to the pool, and only keep the top five voted maps.
2016-01-04, 09:03
Dont hate On dm2 guys! One of The most exiting games have been played On that map. Dont u remember dag vs griffin final at qhlan i think it was good stuff. The only reason you hate a map is that you are not good enough On it. Dm6 i can understand why ppl dislike it, but even then it has its charm. You just have To understand The map.

And remove dm4?! Cut my balls of??! One does not simply REMOVE dm2/4 from The mappool. Its like losing a Child.

Get a grip
2016-01-04, 10:21
I agree with Locktar, why remove the classic maps just because of statistics?
There are lies, big lies, and there are stats

Why not go with a 6 or 7 map pool and force new maps by pick/drop rules, like in a bo5 only 3 can be from tb5 or something?

Ofc I only spec but I for sure would miss dmX games.
2016-01-04, 11:21
I'de go with a 7 map pool next season. Im ok with removing dm2 and dm6 too, but the league could be hijacked by purists, which would damage signups.
2016-01-04, 11:58
I agree with the last posts here. Yes to new maps, no to dropping DMx. What's wrong with just expanding the map pool and allowing players choose for themselves among 7 or 8 maps? As Leo says, you can use rules to encourage/force the use of new maps in BO5.
2016-01-04, 11:59
> Dont hate on dm2 guys! One of the most exiting games have been played on that map. Dont u remember dag vs griffin final at qhlan i think it was good stuff.

I dont, but I remember Kane vs Lakerman! (Yes, I'm old.)
2016-01-04, 15:01
I can't imagine dropping dm2 (or any other map) causing any other effect than fewer signups. And this is coming from someone who hates duel on dm2. I think the map doesn't make any sense for duel. But it was still played for 20 years, it's part of the game already. New maps? Very cool! But I think dropping anything from tb3 is quite obviously not a good idea at all.

2016-01-04, 18:16
I think I said this once, gonna say it again: ppl tend to dislike the maps they are not good at.

Get two div0 players, one that likes dm6 and another that doesn't, let them play like 10 games in a row, always giving the worse spawn for the one that likes it. Do the same with dm2 and then you will have good stats for this "unbalanced" / "coin toss" talk.

Keep the dmX maps.
2016-01-05, 11:09
If you're going to dismiss everyone who thinks dm2 and dm6 are unsuitable for duel as incompetent, then how do you account for the highly skilled players who feel that way? But I'm not one to use argument from authority, so I'll tell you why I think a map can be unsuitable.

[I'll preface this by saying that it mostly matters when players are at least somewhat close in skill level. I think dm6 sucks, but I'm literally never going to beat Paradoks there. dm2 is a lot simpler and more prone to upsets, but, even then, miracles don't happen too often.]

In a game where spawns can be decisive, dm2, for example, has a very low frag opportunity rate due to its circular nature. No one's going to argue with me when I say that you have fewer chances to frag from open play on dm2 without exposing yourself to unacceptable risk. On the other hand, we have seen back-to-back dm2 spawnfrag streaks of 9 in competitive tournament matches between top players. That results in a very low number of decisive fights with an extremely high variance in the reward for winning them. That obviously increases randomness in results, and that is not something that should be encouraged. It's anti-competitive. Of course the "better" player is going to win more often, but how random does it have to get before it starts to become a problem?

Perhaps more damningly, they also overwhelmingly reward static, shallow, defensive strategies. This results in what I saw Johnny_cz refer to as "staged theatre" where the fragleader takes up an obvious defensive position and the other guy runs around for a while collecting resources to launch a predictable assault from one of two avenues. It's not interesting or thoughtful, unless you find collecting dm2 nails to be particularly amazing. It's just a waiting game where everyone knows what the possible options are and almost all elements of resource management and player manipulation are stripped away, leaving a boring game in its place. Quake isn't interesting because some dude jumped out and shot the other guy really well. If that was all that was interesting, then we'd all just play povdmm4.

Of course QuakeWorld has some system mechanics that cause some issues for duel (like the armour system), and I could easily complain about numerous issues in all the maps (aerowalk's health placement, ztn's ammunition problems, or dm4's ... whatever's going on there), but dm2 and dm6's fundamental issues run too deeply to be suitably competitive. Better maps exist.
2016-01-05, 11:13
Larger map pools exist, though. If people don't want to get rid of .pak maps for legacy reasons, solutions exist for map-selection in a pool of 7.
2016-01-05, 14:23
> If you're going to dismiss everyone who thinks dm2 and dm6 are unsuitable
> for duel as incompetent, then how do you account for the highly skilled
> players who feel that way? But I'm not one to use argument from authority,
> so I'll tell you why I think a map can be unsuitable.

Not saying people are incompetent, just not skilled enough in certain maps. This is a FACT. My arguments come from facts not from authority.

> In a game where spawns can be decisive, dm2, for example, has a very low
> frag opportunity rate due to its circular nature. No one's going to argue
> with me when I say that you have fewer chances to frag from open play on dm2
> without exposing yourself to unacceptable risk.

Back in the old days if you catch up with reload or griffin in a dm2 duel, you could be a fucking spawn god, you would rarely win, even if you beat them in the other 4 maps.

> On the other hand, we have
> seen back-to-back dm2 spawnfrag streaks of 9 in competitive tournament
> matches between top players. That results in a very low number of decisive
> fights with an extremely high variance in the reward for winning them. That
> obviously increases randomness in results, and that is not something that
> should be encouraged.

The beauty of this game is the immense amount of possibilities. The thing I most fight against here is if you make the game excessively predictable, about the moves and strategies that a player can do to regain control, you're gonna kill the game. Yeah, aerowalk has lots of different strategies and possibilities to revert a frag streak, but they are so the same. Not saying the map it is not fun, it is actually my preferred map, but consider the beauty of unexpected successful plays that Locktar often comes up with, or the move GT did on his first frag against Bulat in the last Duelmania season, all DM2 games.

If people just stopped trying to change the game into a obvious game, maybe new moves and new strategies could be discovered and actually used. For me, that's the quakeworld magic, it has the chance to be always a surprising new game each game.

> It's anti-competitive. Of course the "better" player
> is going to win more often, but how random does it have to get before it
> starts to become a problem?

As I said before, there is no randomness. If you are talking about the spawns problem, just consider the scenario I proposed.

>
> Perhaps more damningly, they also overwhelmingly reward static, shallow,
> defensive strategies. This results in what I saw Johnny_cz refer to as
> "staged theatre" where the fragleader takes up an obvious defensive position
> and the other guy runs around for a while collecting resources to launch a
> predictable assault from one of two avenues. It's not interesting or
> thoughtful, unless you find collecting dm2 nails to be particularly amazing.
> It's just a waiting game where everyone knows what the possible options are
> and almost all elements of resource management and player manipulation are
> stripped away, leaving a boring game in its place. Quake isn't interesting
> because some dude jumped out and shot the other guy really well. If that was
> all that was interesting, then we'd all just play povdmm4.
>

Quakeworld is what it is. A game that gives the player the possibility of unlimited skill improvements. I think that very few people can stand at red-mega area, with a frag lead, against top dm2 players. Same goes to GL on DM6.

> Of course QuakeWorld has some system mechanics that cause some issues for
> duel (like the armour system), and I could easily complain about numerous
> issues in all the maps (aerowalk's health placement, ztn's ammunition
> problems, or dm4's ... whatever's going on there), but dm2 and dm6's
> fundamental issues run too deeply to be suitably competitive. Better maps
> exist.

I also believe that better maps exist. Although one can come up with a NASA designed quakeworld map, which is perfectly balanced, leaving no space for luck. This one, yes, would be one of the most boring maps ever and as competitive and as balanced as povdmm4.

(Edited 2016-01-05, 22:01)
2016-01-05, 17:52
Well put Stev. I agree with your assessment. I put dm4 in the same boat for many of the same reasons.

I may be the only one who cares, but dm2 is also the worst map to play at a ping disadvantage (which the majority of tournaments, including this one, would demand of me if I participated). Lack of any viable antilag weapon, numerous platforms that move causing movement glitches, narrow hallways where dodging seems possible but you get hit anyways, and of course entering every fight at a disadvantage by shooting late with less accuracy or not shooting at all.
2016-01-06, 09:50
> or the move GT did on his first frag against Bulat in the last Duelmania season

That frag alone is a good enough reason to keep DM2!
2016-01-06, 17:07
andrestone: variance is not a thing you can fight against. DM4, DM2, and DM6 are high variance maps, skill (and mostly gameplay) can (at best) reduce it by giving you an edge.

Moreover, the fact that timelimit of duel in quakeworld is 10 min and not more (say, 15?) also increases variance (or at least, does not decrease it).

If you think that the beauty of a game lies in its expressive power, then why would you want to stick to dumb maps where the only viable gameplay is to camp?

erland: yes, let's justify the map pool by some ultra lucky or almost never happening frag, sounds smart.

PS : by the way andrestone, your usage of the word skill is not good. One should discriminate motor skill from gameplay skill (or even "effective" skill). The primer is absolute while the latter is mostly about map knowledge. That is, "true skill" in the sense of exportable one, is not map related: aim (hitscan and predictive), dodge, move, and some timing gameplay. The rest is all map nerding, so I wouldn't call "skill" the fact that you can play good some dumb maps like dm2 or dm4. This just means that you passed a big amount of time trying to adapt there, and knowing how to play it. Change the map a little, and you could be totally lost (like, swap RA with MH, or change a GA with a YA).
2016-01-06, 20:26
Why do you want to rule out the "luck" factor completely? I understand why people say DM2 and DM6 have a high variance due to the relevance of the spawns. But saying these make stupid duel maps just because of the "luck factor" is beyond me. Situational luck makes a skill based game like Quakeworld entertaining (yes, also in tournaments where the "best should win" and also is quite motivational that on some days "things can happen".

Few people would deny that poker is a skill game but I'm sure no-one would enjoy the thrill if there was no luck involved at all.

There should be other reasons to drop classic maps like dm2 and dm6 than the situational luck factor. If you just don't enjoy a map, that's a different story. As it was mentioned here, some remarkable and memorable moments in Quake's history happened on these very maps.
2016-01-07, 10:08
Let's take this logic to its fullest: a DMM4 tourney on map Amphi or something, excluding the map factor alltogether, just skill (aim) left. Would that make you happy, biggy?

There's a reason DM2 has been a classic duel map in QW for 20 years, and it's not because of the lack of kenya-alternatives. DM2, with its size and lack of LG, is also refreshingly different from the other maps in the pool imo.
2016-01-07, 10:52
erlend: it wouldn't make me happy because maps like amphi only have horizontal aim without hidding spots. You don't have weird angles, you don't need good reactivity (no hidding spot, so this also makes RL spam ineffective), and you're free to dodge as you want (space is "too big" ).

If you do that, you would only test the "lg duel skill" at best, which is certainly a valuable thing, but isn't an "effective" skill as you encounter in "real" maps. This is also why some people are really good at lg duels, but have big problems exporting these aiming and dodge skills in "real" maps. There are also duel principles that are absolute that you won't test if you only test "raw skill" (like, defensive ability, hidding ability, offensive ability, or even some mental skills like pressure management).

I think that DM2 is a classic duel map because of inertia: it's been there forever, thus acquering a form of legitimacy as an old and "official map", even though its not really a good duel map.

andy: you cannot rule out the luck factor entirely, because spawns will always contain a part of luck unless you want to make them perfectly predictible. So does the players' shape at the time they play, their connection, or simply their luck in executing a shot, a move, or a dodge. The thing is, you certainly don't want luck to contribute too much to winning, otherwise what would be the point to organize tourney and compare players ?

PS: In poker, luck factor is so big that no poker player take "tourney" as a serious way to measure their skill. One needs to play thousands and thousands of hands in order to reach asymptotically a performance representative of your average skill. Playing 1000 hands is too lucky to be representative of anything. Quakeworld tourney are best of 5. Luck factor is such that you can be the best and lose all of them, while if you had play best of 5*100 (playing each map 100 times), result would have been really different. So, either change this best of 5 to best of 5*100, either change the maps, unless you really want to add some lottery to make the game "more interesting" (I would disagree) to spectators (yet more frustrating to good players, and totally ineffective to judge their real skill). People should learn to enjoy skill, not retarded lucky and "exciting" situations generated by luck.
2016-01-07, 11:06
Gotta love how ppl must learn to enjoy various shit.
What about just loving the game for what it is?

Mostly coming from ppl that doesnt even seem to be playing the game either.

"LEARN TO ENJOY MY CORRECT VERSION AND TRUTH ABOUT THE GAME"
"LEARN TO ENJOY NEW MAPS"
"LEARN TO ENJOY THE CORRECT AND TRUE VERSION OF SKILL"

2016-01-07, 12:01
What about just extending the duel map pool with good maps and keep old maps as well?
Just implement a pick/throw system for competetive games.
2016-01-07, 12:22
> What about just extending the duel map pool with good maps and keep old maps as well?
Just implement a pick/throw system for competetive games.

Fully agree. No need to get rid of old maps. If the new maps are as good as some people say, and DM2/DM6 as hated as some people imply, the latter will simply not get picked.
2016-01-07, 15:42
Add two new maps to the pool (not NASA ones please) and make a system where each player can toss two maps. That's the way to go!
2016-01-07, 18:50
I don't know where people are getting the idea that suitable duel maps would have fewer options for competitively driven play. One of the main reasons dm2 and dm6 make poorer duel maps is the fact that they already have fewer options and valid play styles. Better maps are more complex and deep. Making boring dmm4 aim-only fests would only be stripping away even more possibilities for choice and variation, reducing the usable skill sets from timing, positioning, prediction, manipulation, etc. down to just aim.
2016-01-07, 21:34
The DMM4 suggestion was not serious btw.
2016-01-07, 23:35
"People should learn to enjoy skill, not retarded lucky and "exciting" situations generated by luck."

Yeah, tell people what they SHOULD enjoy. People really love that.
2016-01-08, 06:41

Tweak picking process.

Maybe implement a smoother EzQuake picking process too? Where all maps are picked/tossed beforehand, and specs could check picks themselves, instead of asking. How about that?
2016-01-10, 20:04

Also a thought. As Thunderdome is done in divisions unlike DuelMania's one big bracket, maybe using a round robin format rather than double elimination?
2016-01-14, 05:31
Removing a TB3 map for an unproven map with fps issues. I don't like this at all.

Why not just add 2 new maps and remove 0... spinev2 for example is a good duel map.
2016-01-14, 17:29
^^ I second spinev2
2016-01-14, 20:12
Well i did some maps in the Custom Duel Map Tournament i did. Worked fine and ppl wanted to play. We did skull, rf2, rwild and i was about to do some other maps when real life took over.

All 3 very nice maps for duel, check em out.

Zaka and Qurnel rox
2016-01-14, 22:22
Will AU be forced to follow the decisions in your map pool changes? "less popular maps" dm4... it is 0.2% different to ztndm3???... and it's popularity is increasing according to your information?

We will never drop dm2.... or dm6 for that matter. Let's just go back to TB3. Sick of this tacticless +forward kenya shit
2016-01-15, 08:34
The old myth "new maps makes qw more popular" rises again. It has never been proven and it is also idiotic to only take maps into consideration when thinking about why we dont have more players
2016-01-15, 16:21
I like Skull
2016-02-17, 19:12
Cant say more then things that already been told, i agree both with Locktar and Dirtbox on this one.

Since the TB3 is still the TB3 and to add some kenyas to the map pool is totally ok, but
to decide and cut off some of the most played maps in decades are totaly insane.

Ofc there is difference of skill in TB3 maps, but this way to make it competitive like throwing away the "big maps" and throwing in kenyas is not the way to make it more competitive.

Even if we would like to see Erlend beat locktar on the next duelmania kenya style
2016-02-17, 20:45
as Borat himself would say, this smells "Big Success"
2016-02-17, 23:59
DM2 and DM6 are the best tactical maps. They have been picked less, because they are frustrating, 1-2 mistake can decide the whole outcome. Timing even more important on dm6 than any other maps.. Both map has really hard rjs, wich is a real advantage if you can do them. Skull, pkeg1 spinev are much better maps than that bravado. Aerowalk is the most boring map for me. You want more players? Then create a good ffa server, like x4ffa was, it had always players on it, no matter how late it was. Without it, a noob cant get a single frag in this game.
2016-02-23, 12:12
Rikoll in comment #7 and Stev in comment #14 already said pretty much what I wanted to.

I like dm2 and it works wonderfully in 2on2 and 4on4, but it's no duel map.

"The only reason you hate a map is that you are not good enough On it." - How good should I get to be allowed to hate it, LocKtar ?