Kapitan Kloze  /  11 May 2011, 13:00
CTL5 - Ogre's Keep
While the process of introducing new TDM maps into the QuakeWorld scene has become a rarity these days, it's always worth trying. After some trenchant criticism of cmt1b and cmt4 (last autumn's EQL Kenya maps), Muffin has decided to die trying and presented his new 4/4 map.

Read on for screenshots, downloads and more information about the map.
Those of you who have been following the forum or the .qw spam messages for the past few days, might have noticed one map being advertised for mix-testing. To make it easier for everyone to get in on the fun, I have gathered some info about the new TDM map.

The Ogre's Keep (ctl5) - by Muffin and Kapitan Kloze

The project followed Muffin's prior maps (ctl1, ctl3 and ctl4) and has been in development for some time now. After some beta-releases, it seems that the map has reached its final stage and is now being tested during the late evening and night-mixes.

Download: map, coloured version by Tonik loc
Feedback: thread
Banners (place them in qw/textures/ctl5, you have to enable /gl_externaltextures_world 1): Quake 1, Quake 2
2011-05-11, 13:05
Screenies will be added later . We kindly request for this map to be added to foppas, WG, Pangelas etc , and gaz to make it available in the ladder. Plz test it and give feedback.

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 11 May 11 @ 16:59CET
2011-05-11, 15:25
added to
2011-05-11, 15:52
It's a neat map! I need to learn it...
2011-05-11, 15:58
btw, what happened to bay12? It looked really cool. Has it been abandoned?
2011-05-11, 18:39
Yeah kind of, didn't find the energy to fine tune it, and didn't really receive good enough feedback for making any changes. Maybe another day
2011-05-11, 20:32
It's temporarily up on for some mixes. Servers will go down before end of may unfortunately as of the forum thread.
2011-05-12, 17:59
Nice map. QW needs more variation besides TB3 for 4on4. QW's "Pro-players" stubbornes kills their own game. There's a paradox for you.

I would DL demos again if there were new maps introduced and played regularly.
2011-05-13, 07:51
Hehe #7

I think that can be debated forever. Adding more maps wont magically spark life into qw 4on4. Sure 1on1 went from 3 to 5 maps but can you point out a player that started to play qw because of it, or even anyone who started to play more duels because of it?

New maps can be fun, good and competetive but seriously, we are pretty stuck with the playerbase we have now. Try convincing some 14-17 year olds to start playing qw because "Hey! We added a few more maps!"

And no, ppl dont quit qw because there are no new maps in 4on4. They quit because of: work, family, other games etc. Compare the playerlist from nqr2-5 to eql10-13 and tell me how many of the ones not showing up in the latter you think quit because of lack of new maps. My guess is less than 1%.
2011-05-13, 09:43
On the other hand: I've just talked to some QL TDM players and their response was, quote: "It's extremely hard to enter QW and play it competetively. You guys have been playing this game and the same maps for 15 years. Always the same maps which is so bizarre and would be boring to us. We're far more flexible and open to some changes."

Hoora: the process of ppl quitting QW and, what is more important, the lack of new blood in our game hasn't just started lately but some years ago.
Perhaps Bugsy has a point there?

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 13 May 11 @ 10:44CET

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 31 May 11 @ 01:59CET
2011-05-13, 11:02
Well i wasnt talking about just recent years now was I?

The number of players starting or quitting because of the map-pool should be insignificantly low. Players quit for other reasons. And to a new player even tb3 for 4on4 and tb5 for 1on1 are "new" maps. Besides, newbies will get raped on new maps too since there are more stuff involved than just map knowledge. Like for example bunnyhoping, aim, tactical awareness, item knowledge etc. And getting new players to form clans and play 4on4? I would welcome every single one of them but lets face it, if you manage to get 50 newbies to get together and form 10 clans you would be very lucky if even 1 of those clans stuck around for more than 1 season. And if they try to prac vs div2-3 clans most of them wouldnt even put up with 20-40 minutes. In other games they would atleast manage to get frags and thats what most players are looking for.

Dont get me wrong, other maps can be fun and can also raise the overall qw experience for us who are already playing. But I think you are fooling yourselves if you think new maps will affect the total number of qw players.
2011-05-13, 11:04
Please note that I am not trying to put down Muffins effort of introducing another 4on4 map here. I havent played it yet but Im looking forward to finding some time, hopefully this weekend, to play some mixes on it!
2011-05-13, 11:21
Ofc, new wouldn't rather bring new ppl here, it's already too late for that. That should have been done earlier. I just hope that this map will be a nice alternative to some controversial maps from the EQL pool - sometimes I'm also tired of playing the same all over again.
2011-05-13, 11:34
What's killing the game for "pro players" is that people don't play with us. They don't play tb3 maps and they don't play any other maps. So for us there is nothing to play in QW and it has nothing to do with maps. I guess competitive players have for the most part moved on to other games and qw is mostly filled with losers with no motivation to even try to get better and win. People fight and whine to stay in _bottom_ divs. Lol.
2011-05-13, 11:44
What is there to motivate? Spending 18hours a day playing vs TVS, only because there is hope of winning the mighty EQL? Get real...
2011-05-13, 11:48
Damn, I fed the troll and almost got eaten by it also. Sorry for offtopic, discussion of the new - actually pretty decent - map by Muff1n shall continue...
2011-05-13, 12:16
If you need some "extra" motivation (money?) to try to win a game (usually, the point of a game, is to win it), then I suppose you are the type of a player that is killing the game for aforementioned "pro" players. After a month in the ladder, we have zero maps played. So how can we play this game, when there is nothing to play? The only difference between us "playing" and not playing, is seeing a "ladder/prac?" spam in irc once in a while.

Also most of the arguments above are complete nonsense. I'm sure some people already quit Quake the first day it was released. So nothing "started" it. People just quit games and move on to other games and things. Different policy with maps might have made some people quit and kept some people playing, but in the big picture it wouldn't have changed anything. QW is so old that it's a miracle it's still played at all. There is no other way to increase it's player base than huge money prizes. And that's never going to happen.
2011-05-13, 12:17
Heh, I thought you didnt like the map Junk But you must have changed your mind after that squish you had performed on me :E
2011-05-13, 13:21
Great map and effort, muffin. Funny and different play style from most maps out there, with some similar concepts to tb3 maps, like lg-water and squish button. Nice with a map where ring is the powerup to go for at the 5min marks (kingpin should be THRILLED!), some totally unique concepts like the quad area that got really nice potential for good and interesting fights.

Some stuff still annoys me somewhat, but that could simply be that I haven't played it much at all (4 mix rounds or smth?), and that theres ways to work around that. I'm most annoyed so far by the shallow water in the lg area, where its very, very easy to be pined / rocketed to death just by staying there. It doesn't give the "sanctuary" the lg area at dm3 offers, where a quad / rl dude would risk alot by blindly jumping in and hope for the best.

And I agree that the mentality of many players in the scene suck. I tried really hard finding someone to play with for the 4on4 ladder, but gave up totally cause of the lack of interest most good players showed. The regular argument I faced was the map pool. Everything dies, but some things die slower than others. I'm pretty sure a tb3 only mentality towards TDM won't prolong it's life, rather the opposite. But I still got good hope for EQL14 even though it's supposed to be a 5 maper. Time will show
2011-05-13, 13:56
Some solution to the 2nd paragraph: the wider and deeper lg area or the removal of the exit from water. The latter would bring a real peril to a Quadman jumping into water, wouldn't it? But dunno if it's not too late since Muffin has declared the map to be finished.

I personally hope that bps will get back to mastering his bay12 which looked really promising. I think that we really need alternatives to cmt maps which tend to suck/be boring etc.
2011-05-13, 15:27
It's fun to see new maps are being made tho I do believe it's a hopeless cause anyway, it will be played for a bit then forgotten like all other new maps before it.
And why qw doesn't see more players has absolutely nothing to do with it's community or our decisions about not having more maps etc.
It's just practically the oldest fps multiplayer game ever and it's extremely newb unfriendly unlike it's counterparts.
A person testing CS for the first time in his life can get 5 kills in his first round he ever plays, all you need is a click of the mouse to get a kill, instant gratification.
A person testing qw for the first time could take days before he gets his first frag against a div3 player. You have to play and practice without feeling any gratification or development of your game while playing modern fps games you can be convinced that you are really good even tho you actually suck just that it's so easy to get kills.

And if we compare qw to other games that have came out near the same time I doubt there is any that has a big player base that we do excluding CS.
2011-05-13, 16:00
The map is being redone now:
LG area is now wider and deeper. There's also a pillar next to LG and a 25 hp pack. RJumps out of the water are now harder to perform but still doable.
Boxes in RL room are redone: you can hide behind them now (both sides)
RA is harder to get: you have to hit button (once, just at the start of a game) to make stairs available at an adjacent wall. The RA trick should now pay off.
The links (loc, map) will be soon updated. Just delete the old version.
Let's mix this weekend!!
2011-05-13, 16:24
a fotnote, making a rookie ladder might help alot for new qw players. no div in that ladder just one ladder with clans that has new players. If they want they can choose to pracc vs div 3. just a though. as kloze said, fixed the map so it should be available asap. the Compile is done, just need flintheart to do new locs
2011-05-13, 16:42
Also, the bug at RA with too thin walls has been fixed.
EDIT: links updated

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 13 May 11 @ 18:16CET
2011-05-13, 17:18
#20 I guess CS came out just the right time, when online gaming was already gaining momentum and mass popularity and people actually had connections and computers to play with. Quake was a pioneer and just too early to create that kind of critical mass. Also I suppose that kind of "realistic" fps games (BF/CoD) have since CS been the more popular ones compared to the rocket launcher hopping games like Quake and Unreal etc.
2011-05-13, 18:25
I'm not sure it's really a question of game content but more importantly of what's available and being played aka "where it's at". Most people who had picked up Quake after "newer games'" were released still said it's enjoyable, competetive and good fun. There aren't many reasons why a completely new player should play Quake instead of something else. In fact, I can't think of a single reason.
A rather realistic (still optimistic though!) approach would be to try and get old players back, even those who had quit gaming completely and not even follow gaming news. They still might enjoy Quake in its current form and come back. However, I have no clue how to achieve that

By the way, I completely agree with what you said in #16.
2011-05-14, 12:26
Well there is still one reason to pick up Quake. It's still the best FPS for team deathmatch, if you are looking for a perfect _game_ platform and not somekind of real life army simulator. The problem is that it's almost impossible to get anyone new to play it enough to realize that.
2011-05-14, 14:03
Nothing is impossible if one just push in enough effort in something. Saying new people will never pick up Quake is easy, but have we really done everything we can in order to get them here?

As for some on topic stuff i think the map looks promising for sure. I also said that about Grim once though, but man that map was boring to play after a few rounds...zzz. :p
2011-05-14, 17:02
And about no one playing with TVS, do you honestly think that every clan is avoiding just you? Check played games in that ladder, you're not the only one not getting games.
2011-05-14, 22:34
No? The problem is the same for any good team. If SR was in the ladder, they would have the same problem.

Most of the teams in the ladder with zero games haven't played because they themselves are inactive, not because the teams that play are avoiding them, so that point is moot.

I'm just saying that you can't play a game where no one plays you, and that is partially accelerating the death of the game.
2011-05-14, 23:27
map is on foppa now =)
2011-05-15, 10:37
IMO that problem is caused by 2 issues. Firstly, due to the transparency of the scene and secondly due to its small size. Every team (and player) knows where he/they "stand"(s). My team doesn't need to play TVS or SR, we know we're going to get owned badly. When the scene was larger, you didn't know every team/player and also if you decided not to play, your team usually had enough players so someone could step in when you thought not playing was better so teams like TVS/SR still got games.

That divisional thinking is pretty deeply-seated in most players' minds and I don't see any way how that is going to change. Yes, I am aware of the fact that one improves most by playing better players. And I did enjoy to do that when the the motivation to improve was higher, but for some reason I don't have much motivation to do so. Seriously, what's the objective and go "yay, my team is no longer is div3, next season we're good enough for div 2". Maybe I am too old for that kind of enthusiasm, but probably it's not just that. Someone mentioned in this season's EQL final game that the match was lacking some intensity and tension (even though it was an enjoyable game to watch!) which you used to experience in an "important" match.

Anyway, playing the game just for the sake of playing is also useless, so I guess everyone will continue playing games which he thinks are enjoyable.
2011-05-15, 17:08
I'm just kind of surprised because one would think that especially for casual gaming, sticking with the same 10 year old game, which in addition happens to be one of the most competitive and brutal platforms for gaming, doesn't make any sense. Typically the casual gamers I know of, try different things in one game just to see how it's like and then move on to the next one. What is the reason to keep playing, if you don't try to win? Surely you have already seen everything there is to see in the game, so what remains except for competition?
2011-05-15, 17:37
Hm, I probably wasn't very clear in what I said. I wouldn't call me a casual gamer, well, maybe nowadays I am, but that's not how it used to be. What I had said about the scene's transparency and its small size is only applicable now, or for some years rather, but in 1998-2002 that was a lot different. Back then I did play to improve, become better because there were "goals". Enough players/clans to play against, both on the weaker and worse side. New teams forming and leaving, leagues were big events. The reason to stick to this game is - as strange as it may sound - laziness to get into another game. Each action game I tried throughout the years is automatically compared to QW, and doesn't stand a chance in comparison. So I don't really see a point in playing another game either
2011-05-15, 19:18
I play quakeworld casually. I enjoy everything it has to offer, the speed, weapon (un)balancing, awesome physics, great variety of maps and mods, supercrisp, responsive gameplay. everything that sets it apart from modern, watered down videogame-culture.

I don't mind winning, but more importantly I want to be comfortable sitting on my couch and play on my laptop. not a paradoxon if you ask me.
2011-05-16, 01:28
<offtopic>it is a bullshit that new 4on4 maps in eql will bring more players. New players go to ffa, or do some arena/duel stuff, not signing up to the 4on4 tourney, it is the most complicated game mod ever. Who thinks a newbie is capable timing when he cannot even move?Boomstick fest is not for noobies, they wanna destroy. Bloodfest! and ffa has some potential, but go to x4ffa, and you will see why noobs left qw so quickly. Smurf, Mors, Boidii, and other spammers rules there, wich is a really sad picture about qw. A dm4 with 16 spammer is not fun, not at all. <ONTOPIC> introduce new maps in ffa, i really wanna try it, and wanna play cmt maps in ffa too.
2011-05-16, 08:41
Maps are somewhat regularly added to xs4all so i'm sure it offers enough diversity?

I do think that FFA servers purely aimed at new players would be something though.
2011-05-16, 09:34
This map was never made with rookies in mind, it was made for the already existing players and to get some fresh air into the existing map pool, thats why there is alot of trick jumps in it, and the ideas behind the placement of items aswell. Everyone can decide to keep playing tb3 for 15 more years or try something new,cause when u think about it, learning a new map dont take that long, as i said before, its on foppa now so take a mix or two and try it out. Atleast i have tried to give u something new
2011-05-16, 09:53
We cant's judge map potential without playing it in TDM. We always always play tb3 in every EQL and we will probably play it till the end of QW days but we have to new maps a chance. I would encourage top clans to try it out - who's going to develop nice map strategies if not top clans?
Although it reminds tb3 in some aspects, the teamplay will probably be different which may be a good thing!
2011-05-16, 20:01
I dont see it as a problem that "pro players" dont want to play new maps. I just dont want to see more games played on TB3, because it is tiresome. Every clan player on some decent level knows what to do on every TB3 map, so it is indeed tiresome. I want to see something fresh and more variation in both gameplay and approach to a map. New maps IMO can introduce a kickstart for the game. Once again i speak for myself(so "top players who are going to respond to this are wasting their time) i wont listen and frankly, you just have to think again. From my experience of QW(i begun playing when qtest came out, but i dont play anymore, but i can dl demos sometimes if i find it interesting), where i find it most enjoyable was when it was all new, and everybody was more or less newbies on all maps. I understand that the gameplay has developed since the modem days, and there are a steeper learning curve today (inlärningsKURWA). But TB3 has more or less killed the game for me. After 15 years of covering the scene i honestly dont know if any player(regardning level) is going to care about another new map, it doesn't matter how good or bad the map is. And it makes me sad. If anything, new maps makes the game more enjoyable for new players, and in the long run it could possibly attract new players(and old) back to the game. I dont blame the "top players" for not acclimatize to new maps or a bigger change, they just dont want to loose their status, it is human. But as i said in my previous post; dont kill your own game.
2011-05-16, 20:31
You may be right there - I've heard even some old Qw players who dont play anymore say: "Wtf, you've still been playing the same old map? You must be kidding man" or smth in this taste. That's why every 2nd EQL as tb5 tournament is a good idea. But then again, maps must be good and enjoyable to play on.
2011-05-16, 20:40
The question in my opinion is: Has QW survived for so long even though it remained the same game (same maps, modes etc) for so long or BECAUSE it happened to be just that? Of course, I can only speak for myself here, and I have to admit that I do miss "other maps" and I'm fairly disappointed that some episode maps which were standard around smackdown/early NQR days, but in the end it's more probable that a smaller number of players had abandoned QW due to it never changing the maps in cycle than the other way around.
Many leagues had non-tb3 maps in the pool, I'd go even as far and say that except for the ultra-serious events such as rarely occuring LANs (9-DR, EU-NA for example) or online leagues like Villains, most events had other maps in the pool (mostly episode maps, if not even free choice). The map pool is rather compressed but it's not the leagues' fault as they always gave the players what they wanted. Often, leagues had voting systems before they actually started (Smackdown for instance).

I spoke to Muffin, whose map I really find promising for serious play and enjoyable for mixes too, which seem to happen regularly now, and suggested that there should be some kind of mixed-game day on a central server (Pangela, Foppa or something) with focus on custom maps or old episode maps. It could be handled by a thread on the forum, informing everyone "wednesday 9pm CET, foppa 3, maps are: XXX, YYY, ZZZ". So that'd be ~1 hour (qw-time) and people interested knew beforehand and could play. Also, those interested in "normal" mixes (dm3, dm2, e1m2) are aware of this and respect the waiting time on that server and not takeover the port, bring in 3 players quickly and turn it into a dm3-game.
Let's face it: at the moment those who love custom maps, are really active on the forums to defend maps and talk about the stubbornness of most players, but rarely play on the servers, and if so, definitely not in majority. If the desire to play new maps was really just that huge, more games would be played, but that's not the case. NQR ladder gives everyone the opportunity to play 4859550 different maps, many good ones that once were played officially in leagues and also new ones that had never been actively played (to my knowledge). But it just doesn't happen.
2011-05-17, 04:11
i can take fix those custom mix days.
2011-05-17, 14:38
2011-05-17, 19:40
There are a couple of demos available in the forum thread for the map.
2011-05-17, 21:09
and some on foppas
2011-05-18, 05:18
Map vill be updated one very last time this weekend.
opened up ssg room, ya room and fixed some minor things.
I will also add animated banners ala quakelive, it will feauture 24 bit banner textures.
I felt this is necessary for the future of the map and to make it feel fresh and 2011ish. I hope ppl understand the changes that will be made. So everyone that already have the map will have to delete it one more time once i release the update. Will also try get the map on all major server after his update. I will post here once its done.
2011-05-19, 12:06
"I just dont want to see more games played on TB3"
Well you are certainly in the minority, because by far the biggest spectator events in QW is still the div1 league finals in the same old maps. Most specs want to see spectacular gameplay and skill, not new maps.

And as far as us "being afraid": we are in the ladder with billion maps. I'm still waiting for your challenge. Let's play?
2011-05-19, 13:54
Blaze, when I said you're not they only ones that can't get to play, I meant that the summer ladder is super inactive. NO one is playing, period. It's not because some clans are afraid to play vs some clans. It's just that none of the clans are playing at all.

Last game was reported 3.5.2011 by DN.
2011-05-23, 11:57
2 Polish servers (Kubus - antilag on) are updated with the final version of the map
IPs: and News updated with the banners as well. The Asters are also up-to-date with the map.

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 23 May 11 @ 23:35CET
2011-05-24, 08:02
Map should be available on renzos servers by now
2011-05-25, 20:45
Map is now on FOPPA! =)
2011-06-01, 19:20
The map now features the lits pack provided by Tonic. Link updated - just replace it in your qw/maps folder and it will work fine on all servrs.
GJ and thx!

Edited by Kapitan Kloze on 01 Jun 11 @ 20:22CET
2011-06-05, 15:13
The map has been added to
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