soma  /  5 Feb 2010, 16:33
Ownage #3 - signups start Monday.
It's time for another episode of Ownage! Starting monday, signups will open for 2 weeks. It will be a double-elimination duel tourney with a bracket of (hopefully) 256 people.
Depending on the amount of signups, we'll go for either 128, 128+quali, or 256. Start telling your friends so we can make this another big one! Also, we're going to use the 2 week signup period to gather some requests and feedback. Please use this thread or the comments section to notify us about any kind of improvements or suggestions that you can think of.

Please add #ownage.qw to your perform for the duration of the signups and tourney so we can have a nice platform for active discussion and - of course - tons of drama!

Ownage #3

2010-02-05, 17:59
the drop-system appears to me as a rather uninteresting topic. from what i see it has 50/50 votes anyway. can't we discuss/vote the mappool instead? it would mean much more to me if i could play on DOOMED for example instead of voting on in what order the same old maps are dropped.
2010-02-05, 18:00
great initiative getting this started once more!
2010-02-05, 19:14
dm2 has been sucking a big dick for competition too long!@#!@ :-oOOoo
2010-02-05, 19:22
if you remove dm2, im out :>
2010-02-05, 19:26
i guess that settles it, dm2 is so awesome for competition
2010-02-05, 19:28
i'd call dm2 a terrible duel map, but.. it doesn't even qualify as a duel map. just look at it. when people do duel it, it has so many elements of duel removed and the +back is so exploitable because of that, it encourages results that are based off of spawn luck. gg.
2010-02-05, 20:52
hahaha, fern=)

ddk, thats also what I thought of dm4 when i didnt knew how to play it.
dm2 is a map where u can choose how you want to play it, fast, slow, or something between. It has all the drama a 1on1 map needs, and i bet as an spectator.

Every map has its charm, and all players dont think alike, its good that we have a wide spectrum of maps. Me myself has always enyoyed dm2, even tho spawns can be really cruel to you, but same for ur nmy, and on dm2 you can be really fast as proven.

gg =)
2010-02-06, 01:13
dm4 is created by a girl who didn't have any dolls and got beaten up by her brother who created an awesome duel map like dm2
2010-02-06, 01:39
I won my official game against "uiG" back in the days in duelmania 3 or so despite him being a much better duel player at the time. Decider was dm2 and I got a lucky start, some spawnfrags, and then pussied myself to a shameful win by camping at ra-mega. Sure this can happen on other maps too, but it's far more likely to happen on dm2. It may be a fun map in "just for fun games", but it's a terrible, terrible map for tourneys.

Dm2 is like ABBA: Popular when new, but actually shit. And as the years fly by, more and more people are aware of this.
2010-02-06, 02:58
The mechanics in dm2 duel encourage +back cs'ing.

This is because there is no element of item control, RA + mega is so freely available. This means there is no incentive to leave a camp at RA-Mega when you are a frag up in a competition game where you are trying to employ the winning strategy.

This means that the map there are no negative ramifications for employing an overly defensive and, ultimately unexploitable strategy. If you contrast this against q3 duel, going defensive too early means that you give the map away and your opponent gains an advantage, but in the case of qw dm2 maintain an advantage. This is partly due to the rocket splash radius and so on, ultimately it shouldn't be played in a competitive setting.

In my opinion, for the reasons given above which merely scratch the surface, this shouldn't be a competitive map, feel free to challenge any of what I have said with reasoned argument, I will be happy to change my viewpoint if there is reason enough to do so..
2010-02-06, 10:18
Fully agree on dm2, but it's not gonna dissapear
2010-02-06, 11:39
yeehaaw nice !
2010-02-06, 12:10
#8: DM2 and DM4 has the same creator, so pretty fail comment

Why are we discussing map pool anyway? Thought that was settled and that drop first / chose map was the issue right now.
2010-02-06, 12:17
all deus' fault ;[
2010-02-06, 12:55
hehe, you got 5 maps but i guess you know all 5 maps too good now. one of them has gotten boring and now you want to swap it... this is what will happen no matter how many maps you have. it is possible to win even if the other guy is camping ra/mega so learn how to do it and stop whining.
2010-02-06, 12:59
just start another duel tournamnet with custom maps and you can have all the fun you want, tb5+ 2,4,6,8 or how many maps you want. it isnt very hard to start and maintain a tournament these days you know
2010-02-06, 13:14
well hooraytio if only you could read, you would understand people don't dislike dm2 because it's boring.
2010-02-06, 13:33
Sure Rikoll, but feedback concerning other things are nice too. Someone people in the forum already suggested that all games should be bo5 (rather than just semis + onwards). I'm pretty intrigued about that too...
2010-02-06, 13:50
where's waterwalk.bsp?
if you remove dm2, im out.
2010-02-06, 13:52
where's waterwalk.bsp?
if you remove dm2, im out.
2010-02-06, 14:03
Stop that whining. DM2 is all about Quake. It is essential to that game, it it the pure olschool core of this game. Check that Locktar-Avenger Ownage 2 dm2 game. Was that two times overtime? Wasn't it just thrilling? Isn't a dm2-decider what all we wait for in tourneys?
You'd better stop griping and bitching and start practicing that map

The moment dm2 is out, Quake is dead. There you have it.
2010-02-06, 14:09
moar apocalyptic talk, fun.
i'll play anything regardless, you babies ;[
2010-02-06, 15:44
there isnt really a reason to whine about a map in a game we play for fun unless it (the map) is boring, no matter what nice linguistic formulations you might make... there is no reason to call quake competetive or believing that it is competetive unless there is some monetary benefits when winning, which there arent (unless you go to dreamhack which almost noone does)

stop thinking that quake is played for any other reason than for fun
2010-02-06, 17:07
If you remove dm2, im IN!
2010-02-07, 09:38
#21 No that game made my cry non-stop. It was horrific if you ask me.
2010-02-07, 11:52
I agree with kwibus and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone there
2010-02-07, 13:04
#8 you THINK it's the same creator, but DM4 was designed by his sister... DOH!
2010-02-07, 15:09
i dont agree with kwibus and im pretty sure i'm not alone
2010-02-07, 18:04

"This is because there is no element of item control, RA + mega is so freely available."

I dont know about you, but item controll is not that hard to controll if u know how to move properly. I always time megas at dm2 if possble.
Its a matter of mapknowlage, and timing of items.

I have played this game for 14years now, and alot of dm2. All in all, dm2 is very ballanced in all ways in my oppinion. I disliked aerowalk and ztn when they came out. but that was just cus i didnt knew the map and how to master it. im abit better at it now, and starting to enyoy it.
2010-02-07, 21:39
Sticking to the same 5 maps for so long doesn't make much sense to me anyway. Old legends are gone, let's play new maps, let the active players learn them and show the masses how to play them. That's what players and observers (both same persons) enjoy the most. If you want to see best performance in dm4, download some griffin's demo, if you want to see best dm6 performance, download some ParadokS' demo, don't run yet another tournament in these maps. We've seen every possible battle situation in those maps many times.

Let the pool for this ownage be e.g. skull, doomed + 3 random maps from current TB5, hm?
2010-02-07, 22:26
Hoho, the griffin back then would not stand a chans against a top dm4 player today.

anyway, its not about getting new duel maps. its about master the map to perfection, I have no intention to learn new maps from basic, i want to master those maps i have been playing for 14years. thats what quake is about. if the map pool would be skull(!?!!?) doomed, + 3 random maps im 100% sure that most of the top players would not attend.

and trust me, we all have a long way to fully controll a map to perfection.
2010-02-08, 07:13
Its not such a big problem, just start that kind of tournament and see how many will play
If it is a success then continue on that path but i think locktar is correct here, too many of the top players wouldnt play if that kind of tournament was the only one avaliable...

It is possible to have both types of tournaments, it just comes down to how much time the players have on their hands to participate in both. There is no need to force either system on all players, let them choose their preferred tournament instead
2010-02-08, 08:27
I'm not pro introducing new maps that much really. I'm fine with watching the old ones it's just that I personally really dislike dm2 badly. Watching topplayers play it sucks and playing it sucks. I wasn't that poor at it, but it's so easy to cs it hurts. Removing it won't happen for the simple reason that there are lots of people who do love it.
I've always loved ztn, but there are lots of people that dislike it. They can claim it has to be removed and in that situation I will scream it has to stay.
Anyways, imo dm2 simply is a crap map. I'm inclined to say dm4 is a crap map too, but the way the topplayers play that map in pretty impressive. I don't find it very entertaining to watch it tho. Still I can see that at a toplvl the map is fine.

Just stick with tb5.. it's not gonna change. There is a nice diversity anyways.

Maybe i'll sign up and start to practise again. Tho I think i'll get frustated pretty fast again which sucks
2010-02-08, 11:09
atleast ddk tried to explain what he feel is wrong with dm2 without whining and calling it boring. however, im not sure that it is such a bad thing with having one map that plays a little different than the others. sure, everyone cant enjoy watching defense at ra/mega but i think its kinda amusing, especially when a 1 frag lead turns into a spawnfragfestival after the player in the lead fails to defend ra/mega
2010-02-08, 11:11
atleast ddk tried to explain what he feel is wrong with dm2 without whining and calling it boring. however, im not sure that it is such a bad thing with having one map that plays a little different than the others. sure, everyone cant enjoy watching defense at ra/mega but i think its kinda amusing, especially when a 1 frag lead turns into a spawnfragfestival after the player in the lead fails to defend ra/mega
2010-02-08, 11:42
Ddk has some good points, but that way of describing a map (just pointing out the negatives without mentioning the positives) could be done for all TB5 maps with the same conclusion (that the map sucks based on the negative things mentioned). I also disagree with some of the criticism he mentions. For example, camping RA/mega will have consequences: the enemy will get GL/mega, as much ammo he wants, free access to RA secret, as much time as he wants to plan his attack (picking up nails etc), and option to retreat every time his attack fails. From my experience, the player who plays best on dm2 that day is the player that wins in 99% of the cases. If the best player ALWAYS wins, we could as well not bother playing the games at all and just declare the winner the moment signups had closed.
2010-02-08, 23:09
Rikoll, one of the reasons tournaments are run is because we don't know who the best player is. Of course the best player shall always win, its just that the best player is not necessarily the same guy every week.
2010-02-08, 23:24
@ zapp:

Yeah that was kinda my point. Maybe I wrote it a bit clumsy. Just meant that the best players learn to adapt instead of whining about maps, and its the same with dm2 as every other map. If you die and fail to kill an enemy at RA/mega or even smoke him out of there, you got no one to blame but yourself.
2010-02-09, 03:52
Okay, but I think the point with dm2 is that the guy who plays the best doesn't always win because of the high spawnluck factor, easily defensible positions and often extremely low-scoring games. In fact, I think it was reppie who said it best when he said "thats the problem with being really good on dm2 even though locke is the best one there, its never a guaranteed win like dm6 always is".

I have a question for you, Rikoll. Aside from maps that are too big/have no weapons, do you think a bad duel map can exist, and what are the criteria for that?
2010-02-09, 03:59
How can the luck with spawns be quantified in a dm2 duel where the defensive play/ability to defend a frag over time is so great?

In other games it's the reverse, the best way to gain frags is through control of map/armours/position in an aggressive and pressuring manner, because you push your advantage of control - you can't pick up an item that teleports you into this box which has RA, Mega, Rockets and only two ways to be attacked. In dm2, because there is no element of control, there is no need to push an advantage as you aren't losing out (at most they can get health and armour equal to you) and can just retire to a static defensive position where you have a large advantage - remember that this advantage could be dictated by shitty spawns in the first place. The RA-Mega guy can still have the positional advantage, which is the same as having +100-200hp.

I'll probably be flamed for this next comment but, I get this general feeling a lot of the players in qw are too indoctrinated to the ways of qw to logically interpret a lot of stuff, I don't want to insult anyone, that's just the way it seems to be. A lot of the kenya-hate is just a completely elitist and conservative -- I mean, the mechanics in qw are brilliant, the game has such rich mechanics that making maps for 4on4 and 1on1 are -really- easy, but unfortunately the community never took that route.
-- like one example, LocKtaR said above that, he has only started to enjoy aerowalk and ztn lately, and that he didn't accept them originally, but he is now starting to learn and enjoy them... they are 10+ years old? Something is wrong there imo. But I have come from high skill tdm environments where I've learned map pools of 5 maps where the standard of map quality is like having 5 dm3's, and the same story with my 1on1 experience. In q3, the maps have been used over, but the mod changes and then ultimately the switch to ql meant that the dynamics of the maps had to be re-learned and they were played completely differently. The argument that LocKtaR posed about 'mastering' a map to perfection is silly in the light of diminishing returns. It also dis-regards the fact that learning maps and being innovative on them as a player in style and tactics, execution etc, which many players can get with extreme amounts of practice by copying/repetition, is removed.

So really in conclusion, it seems like the community is denying itself quality and activity by being stubborn and overly conservative. People probably have no idea who I am and as such will grant me no credibility, but just look at it as an outsiders view to the situation at hand. Thanks.
2010-02-09, 05:07
Did you ever think that qw players simply appreciate different aspects of skill than you? Being able to come up with some new tricks on a new map simply does not excite me at all. Perfect execution of a well known map does. Perhaps it's the same for others and that's why things are as they are in qw. If majority of qw scene would be interested about the skills related to learning new maps, then wouldn't we be playing them? We don't feel like losing any kind of 'quality' because to us, we only lose on things that we didn't care about in the first place.
2010-02-09, 07:34
I don't think it's being able to come up with new tricks though. Grinding a map for 15 years and copying what people before you have done isn't skillful IMO. It just means you had a lot of time to have seen 99% of the situations you'll be in, and have watched better players do it before you. I think you're missing ddk's point entirely with this comment to be honest.

Also, the fact that qw players think that there can only be 3 good maps (1 of which is quite bad) for tdm is just silly. No other game I know of has the paucity of maps that qw does, and the dogmatic approach to maps. Even the Q3 community, one which HATES change, has 5 good-great duel maps, and 5 good-great tdm maps. Learning these maps well should not take people 15 years, and to think it should is just ridiculous.

Honestly I believe that if 5 new maps were put out today that were on par with the best tdm maps out now, and the current maps were somehow deleted from every hard drive in existence, the skill level would rise to its current level in less than a year, and quite possibly half a year. There might be different players at the top, but it would be the same skill level. It is only stubbornness that keeps people playing only 1 map.
2010-02-09, 07:49
Well, there are 5 duel maps and we have been playing a lot of cmt3 and cmt4 (some cmt1b too) in 4on4. Btw, we used to play all sorts of maps back in 96-02ish but it kinda boiled down to 3 maps after that... Cmt1b was tried in eql10 but it didnt seem like a lot of players enjoyed it. Look at the polish league thats going on now, tb3 again.

It is more like as if the qw community has been open to a lot of maps but found that it was better to keep the number of maps down in order to have higher quality games. Btw im not as conservative as some ppl say, i gave new maps a try together with link in his quakeworld forever tournament but unfortunately that tournament faded away when link went missing in action. I dont know if those maps were any good really but it was supposed to try out new maps each season in order to find new good maps.

lastly, please start a league using your preferred mix of maps and see what happens instead of complaining about the maps used in the current 1on1 and 4on4 leagues. its not that hard, really.
2010-02-09, 08:46

Whetever a map is good or bad is entirely subjective. Some maps have qualities that applies to more players than others, but saying a map is bad just because its played in a different way than what you're used to / like / whatever isn't an objective truth, just your personal opinion. In my opinion for example the worst map by far of TB5 is aerowalk. I don't like the fast, wide open area with teleports that leads to 25 health packs all over, and close to zero places to hide and be sneaky. But I still have to acknowledge that other players like it, and that its gonna be a part of TB5 since its so damned popular. I only have myself to blame if I don't want to adjust to that.

Its a reason DM2 is still played, and thats because people like it! People sign up for tournaments when that map is in the pool, and many enjoy the non-lg aspect of it. And I totally disagree with the luck factor. If you die, of course you can be spawn fraged. That applies to all the maps. If you don't know how to play offensive on it, make sure you don't die in the first place. To die you have to lose a fight / jump in the lava / whatever so you apparently was the inferior before the opponenet even spawn fraged you.
2010-02-09, 11:12
One could probably argue that you could spawn worse than your opponent and die first because of having less armor in the first fight. But then again it is also a matter of knowing what to do after first spawn based on your own and your opponents spawn and movements...

Since i dont play duels much i just wonder if it happens often that one guy tries to win by going to ra/mega as soon as he is 1 frag ahead? I never participated in any duel tournament but i have never seen it happen right after the first frag in any of the games i have played. And i can assure you that there has been some real drama games where both players really wanted to win just because of the sheer joy of winning vs someone you dont really like
2010-02-09, 11:37
hoens, we don't play just one map. Duel tournaments are almost alway tb5, 4on4 tournaments alternates between tb3 and tb5. I think you are missing the point completely. I don't think the problem is that anyone thinks that there can't be other good maps besides the ones we are playing. Of course there can be other good maps. The problem as I see it is:

1) It takes such a long time, before playing a new map becomes fun.

2) Everyone has their favourite map in the current map pool, that they just love and don't want to give up. And you can't reasonably add more maps to tb5 without taking something out.

I totally agree with you that if we would grind only new maps for a year, we would probably learn them to a level where playing would be about as skilled and fun as it is now with the old maps. I just don't see the point. Then the new maps would be old maps and we would have the same people who by then have realized that they can't get their skills to competitive level complaining that once again: we need new map pool.
2010-02-09, 12:09
I also don't agree that the players on top would be any different from now, unless current top players couldn't find the energy to learn the new maps and quit. When you can't win, it's always something, lag, luck, cs, map, time...
2010-02-09, 15:14
we have made a new map. a 4on4 map. we want to test it publically, and I was thinking it could be nice to see SR vs. TVS battle it out on it, if you guys are up for it! *hint*
2010-02-09, 16:16
Put it in a major tdm league and we will play it, otherwise we probably use the little pracs we can get on something more useful...
2010-02-09, 16:29
Like tvs needs to pracc dm3/dm2/e1m2?
2010-02-09, 16:34
I keep forgetting this is a duel thread, and just spewed random map whine. Oh well, you can disregard my comment.

Also blaze I never said they would be different, I said they could be different.
2010-02-09, 16:37
Sure you have to work to stay on top, otherwise others catch up fast. It's already way too tight with SR and Fusion.
2010-02-09, 17:27
"When you can't win, it's always something, lag, luck, cs, map, time..."

The point of the dm2 argument is that even I have beaten decent players on it; Players that wouldn't lose to me on any other map if their arms were bound behind their back.

The main reason I personally hate the map is that it's a bullshit cs luckfest than even a complete fucking talentless idiot like me can occasionally win. Sure I won't beat any div0s on it, but some div2 players could easily do it, and dm2's common role as the decider map that gets picked last only makes it worse.
2010-02-09, 17:45
Hey, I don't disagree with you on the dm2 issue. Since duels for me are only speccing, what would suck more than watch 9 minutes of 2 guys sitting on their hands. I just pointed out the fact that some players seem to love it and if you want to get rid of the map you basically need to be prepared to get rid of these players as well. (Personally I'd say don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out and ditch the map.)
2010-02-09, 18:48
Don't tell me its true Stev. You actually beat a div2 player on some random prac game on dm2?! Fucking hell, the map obviously is bullshit cs luckfest! Oh my, how I've been wrong
2010-02-09, 19:00
Between somewhat equal players I'd say dm2 is more easily affected by luck than other maps, because of the ra/mega "safe zone". No other map has a place as easily defendable where u can go sit after a few lucky spawn frags. If it missed even one of the things (armor, health, ammo), you could slowly smoke your opponent out. But as it is your only chance is to make a desperate suicide attack and wish for the best. Beyond collecting nails to get in quietly, there is really no "smart" way to go about it.
2010-02-09, 19:14
I didn't specify who I beat, I said a div2 player could beat a div0 player on it, but don't take my (or reppie's) word for it.

Here's a quote from Gamer during the 2007 ownage, which he won. "I really don't understand why this map is still being played in tournaments. Its fun for prac games but there is something wrong in a map where the first fragger is highly likely to win."
2010-02-09, 20:00
What if you'd make a duel version of dm2 and remove the mega? It would play almost the same, except that you could smoke the other guy out eventually and that item control would be slightly more simple because you'd need to time just one mega (unless you'd place the mega somewhere else)...
2010-02-09, 20:08
What if we keep it as it is? If you dont wanna risk a dm2 decider, be sure to win the two first maps instead then.
2010-02-09, 20:15
ah it's added incentive to play better, lose and face the shitty map.
2010-02-09, 20:45

How about putting a lg in bigroom?
2010-02-09, 20:51
#61 Hear hear! Put it in e1m2 while you are at it, and I start mixing in that map too.
2010-02-09, 21:17
sng instead of ng??
2010-02-09, 21:56
puh, so many have forgotten how many great games that have been played on this map (dm2) Its a map with ALOT, if not the most history on it? I really dont understand how people even can think about removing it, or it being a bad duel map.

Whatever I say about dm2, you will come up with the old "its easy to cs's someone out, algebla algebla ruff nuff" You people just dont see the FEST with dm2. I leave you claustrophobic people uneducated:>
2010-02-09, 22:04
and now the ideas for changing items

we have seen this before and it is getting very old

(way back some ppl argued for adding sng instead of ng to make it easier to break up a lock in 4on4 on dm2)
2010-02-09, 22:06
Whatever slight change you do, tele camping always remains, biggest bullshit of that map.
2010-02-09, 22:21
LocKtar thinking of Reload are you?

So for maps, there is one thing that needs to be said. Ownage is not the tournament to try out new map pools and it is not where QW gets revolutionized. Ownage is a tournament of high prestige and the winner should be able to call himself the best dueler in the QuakeWorld scene.

Now if we so want to get DM2 replaced, then first thing to do is joining KTK when it resumes. The second is to participate in Kenya tournaments that may or may not be coming. Last, when we have found a map that is of really high quality and ready to be accepted by the community we can slowly start replacing DM2 by that map in every tournament.

If that is what we want.
2010-02-09, 23:38
reload? nope=)
2010-02-10, 06:57
Wouldnt you get more diversity if 2 new maps were found, played a lot, liked a lot and then added to the other 5 to make it tb7?

I dont know how long it took for aerowalk and ztndm3 to be accepted in duel tournaments by the players but i think it will take quite some time to find even one more map that can be widely accepted. However, i find it hard to think that enough players would want to remove dm2 to make a switch. Then it is more likely that 2 maps were added to the existing 5.
2010-02-10, 08:34
Back in the days i used to think that there is nothing suprior movement/aim wouldnt take care of, on dm2 i was proved wrong many times. I assume i dont have to restate the reasons from above.

Dm4 is even more fucked up when it comes to spawn side of things, when u get the short straw 10times in row in the way of "no weapons available" spawns, while the enemy is just sitting on his ass @ center..nothing is more frustraiting than that

Aero/ztndm3 atleast can offer you some space to build up your game without the map limiting your options too much, while the structure remains somewhat open for creativeness aswell.

dm6 beeing more tunneled version of the latter two, with two clear sides on it.

But as majority has had its way in the past, its really hard to see any change to current situation, old habits just root too deep and are hard to be cut off.

My meaningless input for the topic, i know there are ppl who love the maps i never personally could level with in my head. And its just natural dilemma of life, hard to go around or solve. its just the way we are

and yes it could be stated also that i never had much of a dueler in me, tho i did give it a serious try on few occasions when the opponent was worthy
2010-02-10, 10:34
#59 such a bullshit comment.
I really think the defense of dm2 here is waaay off. Saying that in the end the best player wins is exactly the thing that's absolutely not sure on dm2. Also the legendary games Locktar is referring too have proven that. For example Lakerman vs Kane.. .lakerman won because of lucky spawns. Simple.
It's so obvious that the map sucks donkeyballs in 1n1 that defending it seems so ignorant. I can understand that you like playing the map, but saying it's good is so....sigh....
2010-02-10, 10:47
Think I've been less ignorant than you in my arguments mr. Donkeyballs Sucker. Who cares. DM2 will be played in Ownage #3 anyway. Discussing something more relevant to Ownage #3 in a post about Ownage #3 would be welcome.
2010-02-10, 11:10
ppl ppl, I assume you guys are mature enought to have a discussion about this, flaming each other wont solve any problems... Why not just start with some small steps and slightly modify dm2 and see if both sides can agree? Im sure its possible.
2010-02-10, 11:40
What if we have a duel tournament after Ownage with three custom maps, then follow that up with a tournament where the best of those three replaces the worst of the current five? All of course done by a poll, in which only players that participated in both tournaments can vote.
2010-02-10, 11:40
I think more than 15 ppl must raise their voice against a map in order to start changing things in it...
2010-02-10, 11:51

how will you choose the 3 custom maps
let ppl signup and then make a poll for them to vote?
how will you decide which maps to include in that poll?
2010-02-10, 12:08
kenya players just want to add their precious map to the pool NOW, cos they already have some experience on theese maps, and they can win more easily. thats why they never respond to this kenya tourney question....
2010-02-10, 12:21
my "changed dm2" topic
2010-02-10, 12:24
miku83: in fact most of kenya tournament players don't spend more than a day learning that map I'd say. The problem is in this Blaze's quote: "It takes such a long time, before playing a new map becomes fun." For me it's 30 minutes - 1 hour before a new map becomes fun to play, I understand it's not like that for everyone, I guess it's the main problem.
2010-02-10, 12:31
#74: There always was a special thread where players did give feedback on the map just played that day in KTK. Besides, good duel maps are not that hard to recognize, you don't really need to spend weeks (or 10 years, hi 2 locktar), to realize a map is good and fun for duels. If the admins knows the maps, he can just decided from his own authority and the chances he will pick good maps are quite high.
2010-02-10, 13:25
2010-02-10, 14:03
#80 I know good maps, and I could put together a tournament using five good maps without using any of the current TB5. Doomed, VDM3v3, Dad2, Skull are all tournament ready. I personally found internal-decay to be really fun and a good map. DakDM4b was also decent from last season and TS-bunker can be tweaked for duel competition. Shrine also works, and plays quite differently from most maps in QW currently.

But people seem to like votes. Hooraytio, my fun kenya tournament then its my map pool. I only do serious votes for serious tournaments.
2010-02-10, 14:11
82 comments, not bad ppl!
2010-02-10, 14:20
Not bad indeed. Some drama is always welcome.

One positive thing about having a customized dm2 for tournaments, is that its one less map needed for QW to be "legally for free". Or am I mistaken?
2010-02-10, 16:32
MIku: The pool for this ownage has already been set. All this discussion is about the future of quakeworld, which means there are months before any changes will be implemented.
2010-02-10, 17:00
#72 yes sir. I know it's in Ownage 3 and that's fine. I'm not angry of emo or whatever. My post seemed a bit 'hard', but I don't mean it to be offensive.
I'm just completely unable to see how people can defend dm2. Specially by saying 99% of the times the better player wins on dm2 which is simply not true. Plenty of oldschool players which played all maps confirm dm2 is extremely luck/cs dependant, but I guess they are wrong and so am I.

I'm gonna stop reposting what I'm saying from now on. A little bit of drama is always good.
Also that kenya lover crap keeps coming back when someone has some critics on a oldschool map. I've been playing this game for ages. Rarely very actively, but i've been playing/speccing qw since 1999 so please give me a break. I also don't like learning new maps, but I still rather see 2 other maps then dm2 and dm4. I can live with dm4, but dm2... argh!
2010-02-10, 17:18

Indoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. ...
2010-02-10, 17:23
Also, there is no reason to try to 'fix' dm2, there's no need to compromise fiddling with that shit when there are a bunch of other quality maps like doomed.
2010-02-10, 17:35
My point with the indoctrination definition is that it describes a lot of behaviour in the community regarding some of the older maps, I think #70 Fix was pretty spot on.

None of these maps were designed with (except aero/ztn) with competition in mind. It's absurd to assume that equally good or better maps can't be made - I'm not calling the old maps bad, except dm2. A lot of these anti-"kenya" players hold an overly conservative and elitist methodology due to growing up with the game and becoming indoctrinated with its ways. It's like arguing with a scientologist.
2010-02-10, 17:49
ddk i think the better word is dogmatism ( but i agree in general.
2010-02-10, 17:54
#88 I disgree since it's a good map and many people like it, it just has one or two huge problems for tournament duels. The good thing about it is that everyone is very familiar with it and knows exactly the problems it has. With small enough changes people could play it exactly the way they always have, just without the extreme tournament camping.
2010-02-10, 18:02
there's this one group of players that obviously can't be described as dogmatic: the newer players that agree to keep playing on the old maps because they want to beat the old elite at their own game. i'm really puzzled by this tbh. who would agree to keep getting their ass handed to them by players that have a practice advantage on these maps of over a decade? my only explanation is that these players are new not only to do dm but to qw in general. i, however, am not a new qw player. i started in '96 and i didn't even touch qwdm for almost 10 years. i played the huge number of excellent maps and entertaining mods that are all part of quakeworld. i realized what a great game qw is and what some of the possibilities are that the basic system of qw provides. i'll never think of "deathmatchmode X plus 3-5 maps" as "quakeworld". it's much more than that.
2010-02-10, 18:19
If u want other maps, then do your own tourny. For me, quake is only, dm2 dm4 dm6 ztn and aero.
2010-02-10, 18:28
They never seem to reply to that locktar... dunno why since it is so easy to just start a tournament with any maps you like

About the practice advantage: on one hand you guys say that it takes a short while to learn a new map but then those 10+ years matter on the old maps? Please explain why.
2010-02-10, 18:59
well it seemed natural to give input for the tourneys that already exist. after all none you did come up with the concept for the existing leagues either.
2010-02-10, 19:38
ddk you are wrong about the dmx maps not being made for competition.
2010-02-10, 19:44
I still want some more drama, so here it goes.

#86: I can say that of all the people that posted something critical about dm2 in this thread, you are the only one that keeps repeating yourself without contributing with ONE SINGLE CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENT. Not in any of your posts have you stated reasons why you think DM2 is bad, you just state that it suck donkey balls / its retarded to defend it / etc / etc / etc. I could quote you several times on all your posts, but I'll let people read them over themselves if they really care (post #11, #25, #33, #71, #86). If stating that things sucks, or other peoples arguments are shit and clueless without EVER stating WHY, its better to just shut up and don't say anything about it at all to not appear like an imbecile. My argumentive skills in 4th grade was better than the display you're putting up now.

Well then. On the other hand, the critic with most good arguments vs DM2 in tournaments is ddk. A completely different approach to the problem, and brings constructive things into the discussion. When he however fails to see that its actually possible for people enjoy it in tournaments, only points out the bad things, stating that no matter what changes you make to the map it remains hopeless, claims to know the objective truth of how bad the map is by even giving it grades (lol) he clearly shows that he also lacks something. Maybe more down the path of understanding other people socially, lack of empathy, and therefore appears a bit underdeveloped in the social department compared to #86 who lack the IQ.

Ah, over 100 now for sure
2010-02-10, 19:59
Rikoll is my spokesmen
2010-02-10, 20:13
The problem isn't that no one can ever enjoy it. The problems are that it is near impossible for a lot (not all, but a lot) of people to enjoy when in a serious tournament situation, and that, most importantly it does not reward the most skilful player more often than every other map in the pool, and most maps out of the pool. There are plenty of other maps that people can enjoy too, and not all of them reward the luckiest/campiest player as dm2 so often does.

People asking for a new map in this situation is just saying "Hey, how about we play a map that rewards skilled players AND is fun to play in tournaments instead of just one/neither".
2010-02-10, 21:04
lol. I'm an imbecile \o/
2010-02-10, 21:54
Let`s discuss something more interesting on the next 100 posts....For instance the Feces-test that Bps recieved recently.
2010-02-10, 21:57
I heard his test came out positive, they found some kiund of tapeworm... great news!
2010-02-10, 22:38
I heard the test came out positive, they found some kind of feces in his feces.
2010-02-10, 23:46
Well afaik the only thing that would be needed to change in dm2 to be fair and competitive is:

1) Remove the bars from ya-tele (would let you (the attacker) spam easier and going to the other side of the map with a rj or two really fast).

2) Remove lavafloor/-button @ ra/mega which would make attacking possibly silent or as alternative the good ol' rj to the rockets. But anyways, would need much more guarding from the defending player towards the lavafloors since a silent attack approach is possible. Also jumping to take ra (or ra/mega) would be lots more risky since the attacking player might actually be sneaky and the defender can't avoid 100% the risk of getting hit. The spikes pack between low rl and button is also a questionmark in this whole case.

3) Use one mega in the middle (gl). This would create more alternatives how to play the map and more decisions has to be made by the defending player. And if you are attacking (losing?) this becomes a very important item, while point 1 & 2 would actually make you get some advantage of the mega (no rj required), specially now that the defender doesn't have a chance to wait for the ra/mega if it doesn't excist

These are just a couple of things that imo could make this map lots better. This wouldn't solve the spawn issues the map has but would make it an easier map to damage/kill the opponent, and still having quite the same old (good) feel while working in a way which gives more frags. And because of beeing able to score more frags the spawn issue would atleast become smaller compared to what it was.
2010-02-10, 23:52
To specify on 3: "no rj required"-part there is also no need to jump into a rocket if you come from the lavafloor. And the guy can't wait for the MEGA at ra/mega if no mega excist, the ra would be normally there.
2010-02-11, 08:44

This one is going to be epic for sure. Just noticed that Milton signed up, together with Mawe! Fix' name also flashed the bottom(see what i did there?) of the signup screen. Also the little fake Dag drama created some nice turbulence around the upcoming season. This looks like the hottest event happening since I started at least!
2010-02-11, 10:54
Yes, thank you Milton (and mawe) for making this tour more exciting.
2010-02-11, 12:11
and thank you anni for making it happen, and thanks for banning that lamer with the nickname that is not supposed to be mentioned anymore
2010-02-11, 13:24
Ban hagge too! its not like he is going to win any games anyway!!!11
2010-02-11, 16:04
2010-02-11, 16:50
I will win vs kingpin, but that's about it
2010-02-11, 17:44
2010-02-11, 20:02
2010-02-12, 08:39
Haha. Add bulat and avenger to the list as well! Still missing Paradoks and zero, and perhaps it would be appropriate with a reppie comeback about now? Also players like Starling, Zeppski and Meshuggah could shake things up abit and even knock out some of the best players on a good day.
2010-02-12, 12:26
reppie: might not even start qw anymore now
2010-02-12, 13:30
Perhaps a few judicious bribes would solve the Reppie's case ?
2010-02-12, 17:12
why is it that reppie lost interest?
2010-02-12, 19:41
I think after 10 years it might happen your fed up with the game.
2010-02-12, 19:46
Fooki also signed up. "former" q3 star and now not seriously playing QL anymore, but still qualified for EU championship, but didn't go for reasons I don't remember. I think he isn't really that interested in playing pro anymore.
Anyways, might be kinda cool to see what he can do.
2010-02-13, 13:47
would be a pity to see superstar Reppie retire, although i believe he would be too tempted in the end to avoid a comeback. I noticed Milton in the list though, so we should get decent action anyhow .)
2010-02-13, 19:44
who is faking as milton?!?!?!
2010-02-14, 12:09
lol!! drama!!


I gotta say though, there's no map that's funnier to spectate in finals than dm2 just because it always gets close :-) I'll probably never forget WB final LocKtar vs Avenger, Ave takes the lead 5- -1 in the early start with lucky spawns, 6 frags up, and started csing but in the last minute LocKtar got it back and won 4-6, I can't ask for more as a spectator!

But then again people might enjoy dm4 rapes one way or another, 60-40 or so, 30-0, 45-12, blabla. I don't enjoy that! Of course dm4 games can be close too but bleh, no ty!

Nice drama though DD gogogo
2010-02-14, 12:12
I've got to add, dm2 forces people to play a certain playstyle. If your enemy gets a few lucky spawnfrags, he might start csing which most likely gives you full control of both megas and can always linger around with 200/250 - this is when you're forced to start hunting. He's gonna be low on both weapons and armor/health but run away from you so you'll have to be a good hunter to get him down.

Is it only me who loves hunting? And if you are the one getting the lucky spawnfrags, you might start csing as well, but csing also gives you the opportunity to suprise your opponent with going +forward all of a sudden etc, so the mindgame in a dm2 duel is looooovely to watch!
2010-02-14, 14:46
It'd be better if it was your opponents play that forced you to use certain playstyle. That is the real hunter and victim game for me. In dm2 it's staged theater. Victim knows where to hide, hunter knows where to find the victim. Both know what will happen next. Boring as hell.
2010-02-14, 18:48
Thats the beauty of dm2. not boring hell. Has to master both way of dm2, defending, and attacking. if u lack one side, it its gg
2010-02-15, 07:09
seriously tho #124, competent duellers will know how and where to hide and hunt on all 5 maps... its not like someone is going to come up with a new hiding spot in dm6
2010-02-16, 01:05
When DM2 gets removed from a duel tournament i'll pull the plug on the last FFA server!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! (More emphasis on the !!!! !!!!! !!!!!!)
2010-02-16, 12:57
Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Flepser! =)
2010-02-18, 06:41
Kane vs Lakerman / DM2 / TGI, need I say more?
2010-02-18, 23:56
To correct myself;

the game i was talking about was LocKtar vs BuLaT finals in the oldschool tourney!

hugz <3
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