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Zalon  /  23 Oct 2009, 01:52
An update from EQL
With the 10th season of the European Quake League just around the corner, and the signups recently closing. The EQL admin crew is looking for some input on how to finalize the division table.

If you want to participate in the discussion, read on.
EQL Website wrote:
Season start is getting closer and we have started placing teams into divisions. It's been a long break since EQL9, a lot of new teams have formed and old ones have come back.

Unlike previous seasons, we've made a public draft of the division layout, this is not the final divisions!

Here is what this update is about, we currently have 4 teams that we do not know the status of.
BaconMen, lacking players
Suddendeath ll, lacking players
refuse to lose, no players at all
lamoboti, unknown

If the teams mentioned wants to participate in the season, they need to contact an admin ASAP!

Secondly, since I mentioned the public draft of the not final divisions, there is of course a reason. We would like input from you the players (Yes thats right), unfortunately we can't guarantee that all your wishes will be heard. Time is an issue and we would like to get the season started as soon as possible.
If you look at the current divisions, then you can see that we need to move teams from Division 2 into Division 1 and Division 3 to even out the number of teams.
So if you want to give your input, you should head over to this news item at QuakeWorld.nu - But please keep it civilized and save the whine and drama for the actual season. And bear in mind that we are just trying to make a fun league for everyone who wants to participate.


As posted at the EQL website input about the division placings should be kept in the comments of this news item.

Please keep to the point.

The Divisions
Division 1
Division 2
Division 3

EQL Website - Original post - #eql.qw (QuakeNet)
68
Comments
2009-10-23, 02:02
#1
first idea without much double checking: a) make it 4 divs that seems to be more suitable for this season. b) don't be afraid to have uneven amounts of teams in each div. as an example, right now there seem to be maybe 5 teams that are top div 1 material and compete on a similar level while there are maybe 10 clans that are midfield material and compete on a similar level. it seems unwise to split these 15 clans into two divs of 7/8 clans each.
2009-10-23, 02:08
#2
The problem with 4 divisions is that if teams starts idling, we will end with a very low amount of matches played, we would like to get as much action as possible for everyone.

I just hope that there are some teams currently listed in div2 that wants to step up and aim for the stars
2009-10-23, 02:10
#3
Also we don't want to isolate the best 5 teams, they deserve to get to play games as well - hopefully against the most fit contenders.
2009-10-23, 02:15
#4
a group of 5 isn't exactly isolation- by today's standards anyway- but i see what you mean. in my mind 4 divs would come down to a high div2 and a low div2 pretty much.
2009-10-23, 06:10
#5
i think teams should be seeded from #1 to #32. then split into equally sized divisions. I think big divisions are good, so 3 divs seems fine.
2009-10-23, 07:35
#6
What i mean is that i don't think that there is a skill gap that big between teams seeded next to each other, that you would attempt splitting divisions according to get them in different groups.
2009-10-23, 08:17
#7
I am a bit tired so i dont fully understand. Explain it once more in another way willguhrt

(im not joking, please elaborate)
2009-10-23, 08:21
#8
Willgurht, teams have been seeded, the problem lies in some teams being hard to place as they are either new, or filled with out of shape players. We've seen a lot of comebacks for this season, the question you should be looking at is who of the div2 teams could handle div1? And what div2 teams should go down to div3?
2009-10-23, 08:42
#9
zalon, if teams are seeded from #1 to #32,
div1 would be the seeds 1-10 div2 seed 11-21 and div3 seed 22-32.

The "who can handle div1/2/3" is the wrong approach, as #20 seed per this definition is a div2 team.

Hooraytio, for example placing 5 teams in div1 and say that the #6 seed would not have a chance vs #5 is wrong IMO.
2009-10-23, 08:45
#10
Perhaps snba and quinas to div3, and revolution and agility to div1. Or just randomly pick some teams and throw them in div1, and laugh at them when they lose all their games and quit playing
2009-10-23, 08:49
#11
Hehe once more, I think the process should look like this.
1. seed teams 1-32. Two teams can not have the same seed.
2. decide the length of season (how many games).
3. split teams into the amount of divisions according to #2
2009-10-23, 09:25
#12
Creating an "artificial skill gap" between divisions (by adjusting the sizes), means that in the long run, there is no smooth transition between divisions.

Maybe you could address this by different seasons have different sized divisions, so the division line is not drawn between the same teams every season
2009-10-23, 09:38
#13
Div3 size should be less than div2 size, I like that you did it like that. Div3 teams have bigger problems getting all the games played and are much more "disgusted" by "rape matches" than semi-skilled div2 teams. Keep it like that please.
2009-10-23, 09:44
#14
in-a-blaze (with Fix in the lineup) @ div3 ?
2009-10-23, 10:10
#15
My personal opinion is that rev should be in div1 too, and sNBa should probably be in div3.
2009-10-23, 10:45
#16
i think sNBa would do ok in div2
2009-10-23, 10:46
#17
yeah fog, thats right. if u take a look at requested div, blaze has div3 requested, sNBa has div5 requested, which is of course just a thing. but if u take a look at the lineup, u can see that blaze should be seeded higher, and -sorry sNBa- sNBa should be seeded lower. Of course that is only my opinion.

I think playing with Fix (and i know that the members of ablz is a close friendship with fix as he coached them last season) is almost the same as we play with for example Zero, just because he is hungarian and a friend of us as well.

no offense btw.
2009-10-23, 11:43
#18
TKS are way too strong for Div 3. Their progress is terrific and their place in in div 2.
2009-10-23, 12:37
#19
Willgurht, I have no problem understand what you mean, what you describe is exactly what we have done - The problem as I stated in my previous post is that we can't seed all teams, as we do not know the level of all the new teams + the shape of the oldies.

If you, or anyone else have an idea on how to seed the 35 teams, then please do so - the help would be appreciated.
2009-10-23, 12:56
#20
This looks good. Theres a clear difference in div1, where tVS, FS, f0m and SR will dominate if they play their games, but I don't mind that at all. Both USSR and SD (and maybe Enigma) can even give those a good challenge, and the rest of us (oblivion, dies ater, boefje and fusion) will fight for the remaining slots and try to steal some points from the midteams if we can.

Also seems like a good idea to put the majority of the clans in div2, while the lowest div has the lowest amount of teams. Looking forward to some hot games!
2009-10-23, 15:48
#21
2009-10-23, 15:54
#22
Lol okay I pressed comment without entering something and it got posted...

I have to agree with the first post. I think the most important argument should be competitive divisions (like post #1 says) instead of a lot of games in each division (as Zalon points out). One reason for that is, that I don't think the div0 clans vs low div1 clans are fun for anyone because it will be such a big difference in skill (rape). And even a division with 7 clans +- can be a lot of fun. It means 6 games at least, which are all very important because you have to reach top 4. Same can go for a few clans that actually fall between div1 and div2. So my opinion is: make a tight hardcore div1, put the low div1/top div2 in a division. Divide the rest between div3 and 4.
2009-10-23, 17:23
#23
revolution and agility to div1 like Mipa said.
2009-10-23, 20:02
#24
wow Zalon, I just wanted to say this must be the best div draft ive seen so far.
I think you will cut the div whine down by a mountains size this time.

Maybe a few really minor changes but thats about all.
2009-10-23, 21:05
#25
Osams should be in 3. We only play fun 2on2s these days. We have played 1 prac and lost by over 250 to CMT. We will only be playing for a laugh and will get bummed in div 2. Thx!
2009-10-23, 21:08
#26
Hey. Plz put Osams in the lowest division. We haven't played in years. Cheers.
2009-10-23, 21:55
#27
If majority of the games for a team are reasonable then it is in a right division. It makes no difference what kind of game is between the best and the worst team in a div. It's just one game.
2009-10-23, 22:01
#28
i just wish that all the signed clans will play their matches, im so tired of idlers
2009-10-23, 23:26
#29
qns/snba/osams div3
2009-10-23, 23:29
#30
Problem with trying to seed 30+ clans is you will never get it totally accurate, it's too subjective about what clans are better than others.

At the end of the day, somebody has to place 1st in every div and somebody has to place last. You have to draw the line somewhere (short of a single division/ladder approach).
2009-10-24, 07:02
#31
Quinas won div3 last season, so they should be in div2 as they are atm. Revolution should be placed to div1, with Avenger and Vega they are really strong!
2009-10-24, 09:43
#32
Agreed. The rest seems ok apart from the above-mentioned examples.
2009-10-24, 10:09
#33
Pretty poor div whine this time. :<
2009-10-24, 10:19
#34
In a blaze with fix in div2, without fix div 3. But if fix is gonna play they do not belong in div3. He alone can probably beat 4 div3 players for example.

sNBa and maybe osams too as they are rusty as hell to div 3.
Imo Quinas should go to div2. I think they are up for it too. Sure they won't win, but they are too good for div3.

If you move boefje, DA and Oblivion to div2 you could actually split div2 in half. Making it 4 divisions, but then again I guess we all agree on the great success last EQL was with the big divisions.
Maybe some games were rapey, but mostly it was a lot of fun. Ofcourse this is my own experience of last season, so it could be some bottom teams disagree
2009-10-24, 11:03
#35
Ok about fix in div3. Will in a blaze stay in div3 or is that still under discussion? Coz if they get to stay in div3 we'll add bent to our roster. I mean a div0 player in div3 makes no sense. Some clarification would be appreciated.

We can recruit bent to our lineup, but I've voted against it as he would be much better then us and I figured that we would end up in div2. Since in a blaze who are allready one of the better div3 teams gets to stay in div3 with fix then I guess we stay in div3 with bent as well?

A reply from an admin would be appreciated so we can decide on adding bent.
2009-10-24, 12:42
#36
name a clan in div1 we will get more then 70 frags against in div1 ok98 me, locktar, stickman, rocketz, rikey.. everyone 4on4 div2 material
2009-10-24, 13:00
#37
Low div team with one player from much higher div is what causes quite some annoyance among low div clans for many seasons, I was hoping this season would not have this problem. It changes the gameplay completely, the opposing team concentrates on where the high div bastard is and what he does and not on things that are important in normal games.

The high div player can do almost anything he wants in the game - it's like he was wearing quad for all the time. You can't just estimate "average skill" of the 4 players, coz the effect of high div player is much more than lifting average skill of the clan. Yes I am talking about fix.

It's important to keep steady influx of new players into the game. Allowing things like this just makes the newcomers more frustrated and not willing to stay.
2009-10-24, 16:09
#38
ban fix!
2009-10-24, 16:21
#39
I kinda agree with johnny as I had seen this type of thing before (not just in leagues but when you see superstars playing as standin during prac). If you have a superstar running powerups against low div teams it can be nasty because they don't have the TP experience to be exerting enough pressure. Div0 player may not be able to own 3 div2 guys at quad by himself but when there is just div3 players coming along one by one it's no trouble for him.

I also agree (depending on the clans involved) it can change the gameplay a bit - not just for the opposing team either. Sometimes you see players letting their star teammate take all weapons and armours etc (Fix doesn't strike me as type of guy to demand that, but it can still happen). This isn't really good training for them.

Fix playing in Qandrane few years ago - fine
Fix playing in bottom div - hmm.....
2009-10-24, 18:24
#40
The only thing I'm surprised about is that nobody is suggesting to put Hippushnik into div1. With players like Darkki, Jebbis and Katsku (+others), I don't really see them as inferior compared to Boefje, DA, Rev, or Agility.
2009-10-24, 18:32
#41
Not sure what rules say about playoffs, guess i could read that later. But

what about making playoffs like this:
1-4 in div1 = gold
5-6 div1 + 1-2 div2 = silver
3-6 div2 = bronze
7-8 div2 + div3 1-2 iron
3-6 div3 rusty iron
2009-10-24, 19:34
#42
Wow, that is a brilliant suggestion, Willgurht! Don't really have the time to write something lengthier or check the divisions again, but I generally think it would be absolutely awesome if clans that have ZERO possibility to win their division (da, boefje, rev, agility, ussr, fusion, etc) could still have something notable to fight for, ie. winning playoffs! Hail Willgurht for the best of all comments in this news post!
2009-10-25, 07:21
#43
Please move my clan (sNBa) to div3. :p
2009-10-25, 08:33
#44
Actually that is a great idea Will

Oh and yeh hips could as well be in div1.
2009-10-25, 10:14
#45
Willgurht for prez! \o/
I like that thing!
2009-10-25, 10:23
#46
You better allow signed players or teams to vote for the maps. What I know a lot of us don't want cmt1b in the mappool...
2009-10-25, 10:46
#47
Im all with SamoN here, do a poll with only the signed up players/teams. And bring the map into the divisions that want it and skip it in the non-wanted divisions.
2009-10-25, 12:28
#48
Samon & Rocketz, in which div does Cmt1b play? I must be a clan right, since it's under this topic?
2009-10-25, 17:33
#49
Itsinen its a player, he plays in div2 for Teamkillers, also goes by the name Stev
But yeah please stay on-topic, don't turn this otherwise good thread into yet another tb3/tb5 map whine thread.

On-topic: I kinda like willg's idea, but theres some holes, like the last clan in divisions is almost always there because of inactivity or ever death. =)
2009-10-25, 23:20
#50
Yeh, but the awesomenes of my idea is that only teams placing top6, top8 and top6 would get to some play-off. Which atleast means the completly idle teams would not be included.
2009-10-26, 13:26
#51
i guess a lot of div2 clans wonder what boefje is doing in div2?
they will clearly rape all others
2009-10-26, 13:33
#52
I like wg's idea.
But i prefer:
5-8 div1 + 1-4 div2 = silver
2009-10-26, 14:05
#53
Indeed Hooraytio.Avengers revolution in div1 and boefje in div2 is so wrong on so many levels.First many of clan revolution members never even been in a clan only some mix games and they are still amatures in 4on4 and would struggle even in div2.Yet Boefje made of experienced 4on4 players got to play div2.Guess blixem being eql admin paid off.
2009-10-26, 14:21
#54
if moving boefje to div1, you would have to suggest which clan in div1 to move down, or which team in div3 to move up. It's not an obvious choice.
2009-10-26, 14:36
#55
makaveli, before jumping to any conclusions you should keep in mind that there are no statement about the divisions being anything more than a draft. Also I can't take whine about favoring admin clans seriously - especially not when it's about blixem/boefje as he is actually the only member of that team that says they should be in div1.

Hooraytio, I guess a lot of people wonder why a EQL admin is questioning the placing of teams in divisions, when he has every option to change it.

Regarding the similar sized divisions, it's not just about skill, it's also about the time - with this late season we can't have one div being so much bigger than the rest.

Also please notice that more div3 teams were added, and not just taken from div2.
2009-10-26, 14:37
#56
imo each division doesnt have to have 100% equal amount of clans if that means that there will be clans who are clearly misplaced (speaking on behalf of the player side now and not as an eql admin)
2009-10-26, 14:50
#57
I guess even admins must be allowed to speak on behalf of their own clan or the players in general, not every discussion needs to be taken behind closed doors imo
2009-10-26, 15:16
#58
Of course not, and you're allowed to have an opinion but I just didn't see how #51 would add anything to the discussion.
2009-10-26, 15:24
#59
Divisions doesn't have to be exactly the same size, but somehow close - else the time for running the league will differ too much. And we are already in lack of time...

Also division 3 has like 5 teams with a high possibility of not getting their matches played, so that division is already smaller than the others in some way.

Everyone can still give input
2009-10-26, 21:47
#60
"especially not when it's about blixem/boefje as he is actually the only member of that team that says they should be in div1."

O RLY?!
2009-10-26, 23:29
#61
Hehe, if you want to play in div1 as well, it just strengthens my point about it not being about blixem being EQL admin
2009-10-27, 00:18
#62
I'll play whatever, seems to me that boefje is not close to the standard of top clans, but if you are having big divisions then we can be 'div1'.

Better solution IMO is perhaps to have 4 divisions and put the 'div1' clans that don't actually have any chances to win maps vs the elite teams in the second pot along with the top clans from 'div2'. In my view if a clan doesn't have a realistic 10-15% chance to win a map vs the top clan in a given division, then they are arguably in the wrong div. And if that means small divs, or wildly differing sizes then so be it. We all know from past experience that playoffs don't need to be synced between divs anyway.
2009-10-27, 00:43
#63
I personally think the original plan to have 3 bigger divisions (including pretty big div1) is better than the current suggestion of 4 divisions on EQL site. Mostly because bigger divisions mean more activity and less of a change of one div pretty much dying because some clans stop playing (happened to div2 few seasons ago).

Of course this is easy for me to say as cmt won't be one of the lower div1 clans. :E
2009-10-27, 14:07
#64
Last season worked extremely well and with very little whine. Why make 4 divisions this time? Less games and more possibilities for misplaced teams...Just does not make sense to me.
2009-10-27, 14:49
#65
it could be hard to end the season before christmas and christmas always means some idle time and loads of delaying from what i gather. with all nqr and eql seasons taken into account the smoothest ones have been those that started and ended between new year and summer and summer and christmas respecitvely. holiday seasons arent good for qw acitivity
2009-10-27, 14:49
#66
I agree with anza, and it's not often I can say that.
2009-10-28, 08:46
#67
I got mixed feelings. For the balance these 4 divs are absolutely better, but last season was a blast with the big divisions. Since we ended 3rd in our division it's easy for me to say, but when you end last in such a large division it means you've been owned by 12 other teams which ain't that much fun.
2009-10-28, 11:03
#68
its not fun to end last of 7 teams either, alltho it only means 6 ownages
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