Just great. Have discussions about strafescript (a movement script, something that has been banned from EQL now), tell certain developers few words and voilah. Something that can be considered cheating is now an inbuilt client feature and no longer a movement script it used to be!

What's the point of banning that script in the first place, now that it is inbuilt in the client and can be enabled via simple variable. Not only that, even the ruleset doesn't block this "feature".

Why ofc this kinda shit happens, high profile dicks who use the scripts go crying and helpless dev's comply. Oh well, i think we saw this coming already, the only thing to do is to ban this particular client, and if i have any saying in this, it wont be allowed in QWDL

Worry not, gentlemen. If cl_iDrive is active, it shows up in the new f_ruleset check. Just type f_ruleset for a full explanation of the command.

Yes it is, but it can't be blocked - that's the problem.

Oh, and I'll add a thank you to the developers for once again really listening to the community and adding intelligent features that allow people to decide where the game should go, rather than deciding for us.

What do you mean it can't be blocked? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I though nothing can be blocked, only checked, and surely it's just as easy to confirm when both the ruleset and the idrive command show up under the same f_check.

Admittedly, iDrive can be changed without disconnecting and the ruleset can't, but it announces any alteration publicly so I don't see what the problem is. Anyway, I'm sure it will be instituted into the smackdown ruleset eventually, but this is still a relatively new debate.

Strafe script is no more cheating than weapons scripts that combine selecting a weapon and firing it into a single click action.

show up weapon scripts and cl_weaponhide/preselect too in f_ruleset!!!

agreed with blAze, why would you wanna ban strafescript?
making it a feature is a good thing, cause then ppl who have little to none config script knowledge can use it too.

That kind of script is just unacceptable. Whats next?
Script that makes it easier to aim like div0 player? So you dont have to worry if you're moving your mouse to the opposite direction where you should to hit. The script fixes it to go the other way! Because that is ofcourse where you actually meant moving it, just didnt quite get your head around it in time...
Ban it.

I really dont see the problem here, its just a silly script, wont affect much. And besides, if it helps newbies to move better, thats good. We need more (skilled) players

I wonder if everyone defines "skilled" this way
In my tests the strafescript always gives about 4-6% speed increase in silent-run-forward.

dmt what the * ? do you even know what the script do? Its just that if you push "d" while still holding "a" you dont shut down like ordinary. but instead start strafing to the right.

As blaze pointed out, stuff like automatically changing to rl, shooting and changing back to boomstick is a far more "cheaty" script than this.

Yes, dmt knows what it does. He was the one testing it about a year ago when the script first time surfaced as common knowledge. There has been discussions about it and it has overall positive effects considering speed because it does things automatically.

People saying "no it doesn't" don't know what they are talking about. This script automatically releases the opposite direction you are pushing even if you keep the button pushed down, and does not cause speed loss due to that (read: you don't have to physically release the button = automatic action). If you think this doesn't improve your speeds and dodging ability, then it's time to go test it and see for yourself.

If dmt knows what it does, it certainly doesn't show from his nonsense rant.

Weapons scripts have positive effects on selecting between weapons, firing and switching back to boomstick. They do much more automation than simply releasing a button.

Certain amount of automation can make playing more enjoyable and let players concentrate on the essential.

If this brings more speed to qw, good. I've always thought it's a nice game, but a bit too slow.

Also remember cl_smartjump that has never been banned, although it automatically switches jump to moveup under water. (OMG IT'S THE SAME AS AIMBOT+WALLHACK BANBAN!!11)

No one here has said that it doesn't increase general speed of someone(because no human can time releasing "a" and pushing "d" optimally every time) just as no human can click rl button,+attack button,shotgun button optimally every time.

But is this really a bad thing??

Do not confuse movement script with weapon scripts, they are not in the same league. The other affects movement while the other affects selecting weapons, not shooting by them (ie. aiming help).

You strafescript guys should have spread the word so that almost everyone would have been using it by now. Then it would never get banned. Same deal with the skin forcing... and weaponscripts etc. You can have philosophical debates on what should be and what shouldn't, but it's mostly a waste of time.

Yes they are not in the same league that is true. Weapon scripts are a much bigger advantage. If I had to choose which automatic help to keep, I'd take weapon scripts any day. So what's your take on cl_smartjump? Not only does it automatically release the jump button, it additionally binds another function to it, and executes it, then automatically binds jump back. A lot of automation compared to simple strafe script, which simply releases a button, if pressed.

Kalma: or the anti-strafe guys should take a deep breath and stop yelling for ban just because they hadn't heard about it.

It's one thing to simply admit that one does not like this particular feature and that's ok. But all these exaggerating comparisons and generalizations are failing miserably, since there has always been much more advanced automation in qw that no one had any beef with.

You are totally failing to understand the situation. Weapon scripts have been allowed for how many years now? 10? This strafe script falls under the "movement script" issue (something that has been banned) and is rather relatively new, and has more positive effects than negative effects.

I am not going to debate over issues other than the strafescript/cl_idrive since people consider it cheaty, unlike those other features. Actually, I don't bother debating even that any longer since there are threads about this feature and those have quite a bit discussion on them.

Besides, it's very obvious that people who use such script or whatever client feature (shaftalpha) that benefits them, will want that enabled in the rules at whatever the cost, so that they can continue using their settings and having edge over others that don't possibly benefit or even know that stuff.

I vote for a vote! Like with fakeshaft, and if once again 51% says ban it, we ban it

Renzo its pretty clear what kind of political side your on "We have had this for 10 years"..
if iDrive was discovered 10years ago Im positive it would be just as accepted as weapon switching.

Lets put it to a vote

Wrong.

Have you been reading my posts at all? I support many new features that aren't actually allowed in the ruleset or in the leagues. However I also don't support some of the features that are allowed in the ruleset or in leagues.

So far I haven't seen any attempted justification of movement scripts that couldn't also be applied to kfjump.

What are the pro-strafescript players' opinions on automated rocket jumping? After all, it's just a little bit of automation, and if it helps newbies to move better then what's the harm? We need more skilled players?

There's a vast difference between automating weapon changing, which is just a simple key-press, and automating a part of movement which requires talent, practice and skill. Just because you're used to it, doesn't mean it's okay.

Stev you got this script wrong, Its not changing your movement, you dont become ninja-spiderman when you turn it on. this is just a simple key release.

It's funny watching people whine about this and then talk like they have no clue what it actually does..

The only damn thing this 'script' does is make it so you don't cancel out your movement in one way with a movement to the opposite direction. There's no automation of anything. It doesn't help you achieve anything. You still have to hit those keys to move just the same as without. The only thing this does is help prevent the occasional miss-hit of a key. You can't accomplish anything special or new with this 'script'. If you're a total newb it might help if your coordination is poor at the beginning. If your a pro, it's just gonna keep you from making the occasional mistake. I think 99% of the people playing can learn to hit one button, let go of it, and hit the other button, without messing up too much. At least I hope so, or maybe they shouldn't even be playing qw to begin with.

kfjump looks like shit in demos and while spectating, idrive and smartjump doesn't...

Stev strafe script does not automate movement. To move left you need to press left, to move right you need to press right. The only thing strafe script does is that it releases the opposite direction if it was pressed. Kfjump does much more than releases a key as you well know. Weapons scripts do much more automatically than strafe script.

Time and generalizations are both poor arguments for anything and if this feature has not been around for ten years, it certainly has been for many and has not been banned until suddenly now.

I think all the currently banned features should be put on a neutral vote.

Heh. So if this script does nothing, why allow it then when certain players are against it? That is just silly. And so is this flamewar. Let's just vote

Why is the new feature named "iDrive" btw?

Looks like someone has severe reading comprehension issues. Why ban something if there is no good reason to do so? So far I have seen none.

The worst thing is - as this script really does give an advantage (helps me achieve speeds I cannot achieve without it), I want to be using it _if it's allowed_ (because I don't want to be in disadvantage). But if it's allowed only somewhere and disallowed somewhere else, I'd have to get used to two different "physics". That'd kinda suck for all of us Also if it's allowed I'd have to learn taking advantage from it to the fullest - that is I'd have to learn how to move again - that'd suck too - I guess for the majority of the players.
I hope this "split" won't happen in the QW scene, it'd be one of the worst things that ever happened.

Eql wont allow it, and neither will QWDL, dunno about fil's one day tourneys but seems like the split up will happen anyway

JohnNy that's true. When playing pov for example you have to use all features not to give your opponent advantage. Then in leagues you'd need to play with completely different settings. That is the biggest suck in all this. So either unban these features or remove them from the clients completely. Of course now it's kinda late anyway because people will just play with older clients then.

Are you trying to say _you_ will play with older client if its gets banned?
Anyways, thats a very good idea blAze. Remove them from the clients completely please.

dmt basically yes, because I wouldn't like to give my opponents an advantage. It's kinda hard to remove this stuff from use afterwards.

i don't remember for how long i have been playing with the movement script, i remember that someone checked my cfg and said, "hey you should try this script" and i was like ok lets try it.... i didn't notice any big difference but apparently im now moving faster and better, i switched it off to try playing without it and it rly sucked :E i have never seen any discussion or blogs or smth about this, i just found out when i read that eql had so "many" new rules.... for me this movement script is the same as the weapon script( that i haven't used that long either) i rather give away more rl packs then have to play and feel like im moving like a fridge... and about the " i haven't heard about any script" is there more scripts that should be banned than? mayby we should hire some inspectors who can fix all this with the scripts!

1.Kfjump/fwrj script = A script that corrects human error and gives a perfect rocket jump every time.
2.Strafe script = A script that corrects human error and lets you keep speed you would have otherwise lost.

Differences none = BAN IT!!!

seems like it is only lower divs using this? can't everyone start using so that we can have one hell of an activity in only one BIG div!?

3.Weapon script = A script that corrects human error and automatically switches weapons and fires them faster than you could otherwise. You also don't need to remember to switch back to bs because it's done for you, automatically.

Differences none = DON'T BAN IT!!!1111

Come on. Just checked my cfg from days when i started to play qw (2001).
And that script was in that cfg. And it was base config for most of russian players that time.
Better ban fallbunny. Its really evil and take more advantage that script which did -moveleft.

bb, please read my reply at #30

i dont see why you should remove this .. not being able to move-right when you are pressing move-left doesnt make sense to me and if that gives a speed advantage, just make THAT the standard instead of the slower-not-making-sense old movement?

Has anyone realized that making this a "standard" would take time and should be inbuilt in all new clients as "on". And also, as it seems so hard to upgrade to new clients how do you really think that people would bother putting the script into their cfg:s, since they don't seem to have the time to upgrade clients which takes the same amount of time? And nobody who would make a "comeback" would probably know about this either so there would "always" be an advantage of those who has it in their config atleast against some people, most just binds their strafe right/left-buttons and +attack and GO!

Tried it out last night properly and there seemed to be a quite big advantage of using it, only after some minutes of using it I tried turning it off to check if there were any differences and there were major. I don't even consider myself as a bad bunnier but f*ck that corrects lots. Still, my vote goes for SKILL and having it turned off!

itsinen: what about this cl_iDrive? havent tried it yet, but if that's the same .. shouldn't be too hard to put that into a config

Ye, but you'll need an up2date client, and most players don't have time to upgrade etc etc

I'm all for forcing cl_iDrive on. This "movement script" makes sense. You can press more keys than one on your keyboard, why wouldnt that same thing work with moving your quakeguy. I think by not using this feature, you are handicapped.

Would be hard to imagine a game where you cant press two movement keys at the same time. No-one makes games like that. This was an error in creating quake in the first place.

If people are too lazy to use the full potential of the game, that is completely their loss. Now that it's a documented command, there is nothing to it. You read the manual, you test it out, you use it if you like it. On one hand you are enforcing people to upgrade their clients in eql on the other hand you say it can't be done. Please. I think it's pretty obvious that no reason or logic here will change certain peoples' mind.

Just for the fun I made a few aliases that bunny-hop around the room, I was just pressing keys A B alternatively, not moving my mouse at all .. It's also a script that "just releases some keys while some others were pressed" and to speed-jump "you still need to press key A and then key B" I also did the "initial jump" thing that'd always give me 490+ speed.. if you ever measured the speed of your initial bunny-jump, you know this is beyond capabilities of most of the players (of course the trick here is not only to release and press some buttons in the right time but also to move the mouse using appropriate speed, which I achieved by appropriate cl_yawspeed).
But I think the art of movement definitely consist of the skill to perform correct set of actions in the right time. Why should releasing a button in the right moment be less important in this sense then moving the mouse and pressing a button in the same (perfect) time?

"This was an error in creating quake in the first place."

No it wasn't. It is this way in every game I've ever played. It even makes sense from a physical perspective. Two equal and opposing forces enter equilibrium when you hold left and right strafe.

And I disagree strongly with the comparisons to weapon scripts. The only thing I can see they have in common is that they are both "scripts", which is a pretty vague term to begin with.

There is no real "skill" in changing weapons. It's a simple, uncomplicated keypress, whether you use a script or not. There is skill in bunny-hopping. In fact it's the one unique skill-set in quakeworld. To diminish that is to diminish the skill of the game that we all hold in such high regard.

I understand people don't want to let go of something they have gotten used to, as people did not want to let go of automated rocket jumping, but the adjustment in this case is not as great. I'm sure everyone who participates in EQL and QWDL will have adjusted completely LONG before the playoffs. They probably won't be as good at gaining speed as they are with the script, but that's the point, isn't it.

"There is no real "skill" in changing weapons. It's a simple, uncomplicated keypress, whether you use a script or not."

Try playing 4on4 without sgscript these days. You'll drop a lot more RLs on average. Then tell me whether or not manual weapon control is a skill.

Don't forget that this isn't all about running/bunny speed, but also dodging ability. I noticed this earlier:

They might turn a bit better but their movement would still suck. Not only that, noobs usually have problem hitting the enemy so someone using this script can already dodge better than usual making the noob hit even worse.

"It even makes sense from a physical perspective. Two equal and opposing forces enter equilibrium when you hold left and right strafe."

That kind of non-related reasoning is completely pointless. Similarily you could say that if the captain of the ship gives a new heading, the new one will go into effect, not cancel out the old one and stop the ship.

"There is no real "skill" in changing weapons. It's a simple, uncomplicated keypress, whether you use a script or not."

There is no skill in changing direction. It's a simple, uncomplicated keypress, whether you use a script or not.

"There is skill in bunny-hopping. In fact it's the one unique skill-set in quakeworld. To diminish that is to diminish the skill of the game that we all hold in such high regard."

This script does not bunny-hop for you. In fact I can't notice it helping my hopping at all. I can't jump trough any trick maps without this script, nor with it.

"There is no skill in changing direction. It's a simple, uncomplicated keypress, whether you use a script or not."
Nonsense. It involves timing to coordinate alternation between pressing/releasing strafe keys and perfect mouse timing. Pressing a weapon select key requires no skill at all. It's just a chore, and chores are not skillful.

"In fact I can't notice it helping my hopping at all."
Well, if you don't notice it helping then why are you fighting for it? It does help, and that's a quantifiable fact. Tests can prove it. This reduces the amount of skill you need to bunny hop, you can't argue against that.

Hmm, strafescript should make it easier to play in drunk.. That's a good thing.

"Nonsense. It involves timing to coordinate alternation between pressing/releasing strafe keys and perfect mouse timing. Pressing a weapon select key requires no skill at all. It's just a chore, and chores are not skillful."

This script has nothing to do with mouse nor the rhythm of bunny hopping. It will simply execute direction change in minimal time.

Weapons scripts will automatically check your ammo and select a weapon from a list of preselected weapons, then they will fire with perfect timing after the switch, and switch back to axe/bs again with perfect minimal timing. Doing the same manually would definately cost you time in every step.

Anyone who claims that weapons scripts are not a bigger help than strafe script is clearly not being honest.

"Well, if you don't notice it helping then why are you fighting for it?"

Because it gives a slightly faster avg speed when you're NOT hopping, like in povdmm4. Even if you'd manage to push this ban trough into some league it'll still be used everywhere else. Basically this means that I either need to give my opponent an advantage in evasive movement in povdmm4 or I have to play with two different cfgs depending on the situation. Both options kinda suck.

"It does help, and that's a quantifiable fact. Tests can prove it. This reduces the amount of skill you need to bunny hop, you can't argue against that."

Until I see some proof I have absolutely no reason to think that. In my own testing I can't see any difference whatsoever.

make cl_idrive 1 default from now on. The script has been around for years, & it gives the game fluidity and speed, which is unique to qw. Concentrate on banning teamplay stuff for leagues instead plz.

Comparing new features to old features that are allowed in order to make the new features "valid" is just pointless if you ask me.

pointless is the correct word here, I here by announce that Im against this and will fight as hard as I can off getting it illegal!!

Stev points it out pretty clear and it gives a huge advantage for me atlest, dunno about you blaze but I perform a hell of a lot better with the script and it takes away my disadvantages that I had vs better player who can control the jumping and dodging better than me.

About your comment for people who can use it in inofficial games, then so be it, they can still use kfjump or what ever, dosnt matter i

"Comparing new features to old features that are allowed in order to make the new features "valid" is just pointless if you ask me."

How come? What is pointless IMHO are those "it's a law of physics!" type of reasonings. Comparing to other features is about consistency. Comparing is ok as long as you're also willing to look these things case by case.

Yes, but as long as your only point of argument is "Feature X is already allowed, then feature Y should be allowed too!" it's useless. I agree that weapon scripts lessens the demands on player skills a bit and is a similar feature, but i have accepted it as a part of the foundations of the game and don't want things to boil down to an even more shallow game.

Feature X alone won't make a big difference to the game, but if we allow Y, Z and all the other stuff that comes along, then i'd put up a warning flag. (This is no good reason not to allow it either though)

i can see blAze's point in this debate, and i can see b1aze argue as well. i've never ever heard of this script and never used it. Besides from the weapon scripts it makes sense to make use of it. I can play with and without them but way better with.

The point is that this script probably gives more advantage to someone with a low sensitivity since such players seems to have the hardest time moving around.

Where do i get this script?

i have tried to play without the scripts now for some games, (as already mentioned) i make more "movement mistakes" and i need to focus more on the speedjump itself... but i think i will get used to it, if it is harder for lowsens ppl to speedjump..then ban it

"The point is that this script probably gives more advantage to someone with a low sensitivity since such players seems to have the hardest time moving around."

It won't help them any more than a high sens player, since, as has been stated many times already, it has nothing to do with mouse movement. The only thing it affects is the 4 keyboard keys you use for movement. The only thing it does is to stop one movement key from canceling out the effect of another movement key. It lets you press left, and then right while still holding down the left key, and move right, instead of just stopping your movement cold. It lets you be a bit sloppy in your key presses, not your mouse movement, not your jumping. It's not a big deal. The people making the most noise about it don't understand what it does at all, you can see this very easily by reading through the above posts...

Wrong.

Most of the people understand it perfectly, not to mention they share their experiences about it too, clearly stating the results too.

This is the most popular ezquake release thread ever.

It's still an advantage, since a player with higher sensitivity have an advantage when it's turned of.
Low sensitivity player press wrong buttom = loses speed, have bad acceleration, slow movement, takes longer time to get speed.
High sens player = fast acceleration on first jump, fast movement, can do things above player never could.

And if you, blahblah, plays with keyboard only, please tell me.

.... let's just think about it a second, should we end up like cs?, slow motion players with low sens should never have an advantage because of this crap.

Thank you for all the ezquake releases. I've left mqwcl for all time now. When can i see a permanent ban on fuhquake and mqwcl, qwcl?

Btw... i would like to see more linux-svgalib updates... (-mmt, -hiddev thing)

Best Regards to ezteam for their gr8 client

Raket what are you talking about? There are plenty of low sensitivity players who can move perfectly, like KovaaK.