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2012-12-08, 10:09
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www.nquake2.com

This package contains Quake 2 shareware, Threewave CTF, Action Quake II and Eraser Bot.

The client used is Q2Pro.

Currently, only a Windows client version has been finished.

Plans exist for Linux, Mac OS X (if possible) versions, along with a server version of this as well. Though the popularity of this project will have to go up before I take the time to create this. Currently I have only a few hundred downloads during the last eight months.

Original post wrote:
I would like to create an nQuake for Quake 2.

It would be pretty simple. I just need the file structure.

Anyone know what I need?

* The best client
* Decent configs/scripts
* Textures, skins
* Maps


(Edited 2013-09-18, 07:59)
2012-12-09, 08:01
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I found this yesterday. Funny

http://q2s.tastyspleen.net/

The problem with Q2S is that it combines different licenses into one downloadable package. Therefore it's only a matter of time before some GPL zealot comes and shuts down the project.

So far I've managed to find...

* The best client: R1Q2 + anticheat module + R1GL
* A great serverbrowser: QSB
* Location files
* Fullbright skins
* Textures
* Popular map packs: Q2RDM, Q2duel, Q2next, ZTN2DM
* Eraser bot (mostly for personal use)
* CTF mod: Threewave

Gonna try and make a decent config file today, and resize the texture files and make them jpegs. Then the installer will need some work.

When all that is done, I guess I need Q2 players to give input on what's missing.
2012-12-09, 12:57
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As a casual all-Quake player I must say that what you proposed looks good to me. I can't think of anything more that could be added. I think competitive players should voice their opinion, they certainly know more.

In other news: some time ago I talked to people on IRC about QW's dropping popularity (for a change... ) and I said that perhaps a "live" system (like in the case of quake live) would help. However, I am aware how much resources such endeavour would require and perhaps it's just not worth the effort. Nevertheless, a couple of people from Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory scene decided to undertake such project for their game. Apparently they're doing good, because they have recently opened registration for alpha testing. Here is a link for those who might be interested: http://etlive.entirely.pro/blog/

(Edited 2012-12-09, 13:14)
2012-12-09, 13:10
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I'm not a Q2 player, but i want to give it a try as soon as you make a package !
2012-12-10, 08:12
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My latest work can be seen here: nquake.com/2

Use the "fnu.nu" mirror for the latest distfiles.

And please note that this is a work in progress. The installer graphics aren't done yet, and some options during the install are missing (such as textures and associations).

I haven't even started with the config files yet. Please brainstorm your ideas here.

(Edited 2013-01-03, 02:29)
2012-12-11, 06:25
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Salutations!

empezar wrote:

http://q2s.tastyspleen.net/

The problem with Q2S is that it combines different licenses into one downloadable package. Therefore it's only a matter of time before some GPL zealot comes and shuts down the project.


While I'm not the author of the Q2S installer, I do host it, and so I've tried to be careful about licensing issues.

The greatest uncertainty for me has been on the packaging of the game assets (textures, maps, sounds) incorporated from the 3.14 demo and 3.20 point release.

The 3.14 demo and 3.20 point release are of course freely downloadable from id Software's website, and so a future version of the Q2S installer is likely to instead download those files on behalf of the user instead of incorporating their data directly.

However, regarding the GPL specifically, to the best of my knowledge there's no violation. The only executable code installed is in r1q2 + r1gl (both GPL), and the QSB browser (which neither dynamically links with nor communicates programmatically with the GPL binaries.)

(The inclusion of QSB in Q2S would be similar to the MongoDB case, where the expectation is that one may ship a closed source application along with the MongoDB GPL binaries, because the application does not directly link with MongoDB.)

Does that make sense? Or do you feel we've overlooked something?

Regards,

quadz
2012-12-11, 20:10
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quadz wrote:
(The inclusion of QSB in Q2S would be similar to the MongoDB case, where the expectation is that one may ship a closed source application along with the MongoDB GPL binaries, because the application does not directly link with MongoDB.)

Does that make sense? Or do you feel we've overlooked something?

Regards,

quadz


It's not just about executables. All other content have licenses too, and if they don't have a specific license, it definitely doesn't default to GPL. And I was under the impression that if ONE file has GPL licensing, all other files distributed with that file must also be under GPL licensing, and the source code must be provided if asked for. This is where you bring in executables, but even map files have source files. Map textures (can) have PSD files, etc.
2012-12-12, 23:22
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empezar wrote:

All other content have licenses too, and if they don't have a specific license, it definitely doesn't default to GPL.


Agreed.


empezar wrote:

And I was under the impression that if ONE file has GPL licensing, all other files distributed with that file must also be under GPL licensing


GPL's copyleft viral ability is more narrowly defined than this. (If GPL could infect all files in the distribution, then the previously mentioned MongoDB distribution arrangement would fail.)

The key in GPLv2 being: "mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License."

I Am Not A Lawyer, but the general consensus seems to be that the only parts of the distribution which a GPLv2 licensed Program can affect, are modules which statically link with it, and probably which dynamically link with it (though there is some disagreement around dynamic linking.) But if modules communicate over sockets, for instance, then they can be distributed together under the aggregation clause above (which is how MongoDB works.)

Similarly, non-GPL sounds and textures and maps should also fall under the aggregation clause, as they're not a derivative work of the Program itself. (They don't statically or dynamically link with the Program in any way that could make them part of the Program for GPLv2's purposes.)

That said, I do think it would be better if our installer were changed to download the 3.14 demo and 3.20 point release on the user's behalf, instead of bundling parts of them with the installer. Because even though I think we don't have a GPL violation, I'm uncertain whether the bundling of parts of 3.14 and 3.20 is allowed at all (even though they are freely available downloads on id Software's site.)

How is your nQuake2 installer handling this? Are you avoiding distributing parts of 3.14 demo and 3.20 point release entirely?


Regards,

quadz
2012-12-13, 06:26
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quadz wrote:
How is your nQuake2 installer handling this? Are you avoiding distributing parts of 3.14 demo and 3.20 point release entirely?


Currently I have split them up into three packages. Perhaps I need to split them up into four.

1) GPL content
2) non-GPL content (including 3.20 point release files)
3) Q2 3.14 demo
2012-12-13, 08:19
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Howdy,

I'm the author of Q2S, and as I'm sure you've noticed, I used your project as inspiration when I set out to create an installer for Quake 2. You've done such an excellent job with the nQuake installer that the best I could hope to do was to try and emulate and build on your approach.

As quadz has already mentioned, we feel the most questionable aspect of the Q2S installer is the fact that it's currently bundling content from the 3.14 demo and 3.20 update. I will be addressing this in the near future by changing the installer to separately download and extract this data from the original archives.

My original intent was to provide our community (tastyspleen.net) with a simple installer so that we could provide newcomers and returning players with an easier way of getting into the game with a more up-to-date configuration.

By all means, I welcome any contribution you can make to the Quake 2 community, and I wish you the best of luck on your project!
2012-12-13, 09:55
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Elysium wrote:
Howdy,

I'm the author of Q2S, and as I'm sure you've noticed, I used your project as inspiration when I set out to create an installer for Quake 2. You've done such an excellent job with the nQuake installer that the best I could hope to do was to try and emulate and build on your approach.

As quadz has already mentioned, we feel the most questionable aspect of the Q2S installer is the fact that it's currently bundling content from the 3.14 demo and 3.20 update. I will be addressing this in the near future by changing the installer to separately download and extract this data from the original archives.

My original intent was to provide our community (tastyspleen.net) with a simple installer so that we could provide newcomers and returning players with an easier way of getting into the game with a more up-to-date configuration.

By all means, I welcome any contribution you can make to the Quake 2 community, and I wish you the best of luck on your project!

Or how you about you merge your knowledge, help eachother, and create one great package?
2012-12-13, 15:32
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I like competition. I will steal every idea I like, and I hope some of my ideas will be stolen as well.
2012-12-13, 18:15
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dimman wrote:
Or how you about you merge your knowledge, help eachother, and create one great package?


We will likely have differing ideas as to what should be included in the package as I'm taking a minimalist approach and focusing on only what I feel as necessary in order to minimize download time. I also like to keep the graphics as faithful as possible, while most other packages tend to focus on high resolution textures and such.


empezar wrote:
I like competition. I will steal every idea I like, and I hope some of my ideas will be stolen as well.


There is plenty of room for another installer, and it will most certainly aid the goal of having more people discover the awesomeness that is Quake 2!

With that said, you are more than welcome to use the bright skins I have made, or any other content found within the Q2S package. Also, I'd be more than willing to help out with any Quake 2 specific questions that you may have, so feel free to ask.
2012-12-13, 20:14
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Nowadays, seldom does a player witness as much respect from players of different games as between the two of you guys
2012-12-14, 16:36
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Elysium wrote:
With that said, you are more than welcome to use the bright skins I have made, or any other content found within the Q2S package. Also, I'd be more than willing to help out with any Quake 2 specific questions that you may have, so feel free to ask.


Thank you
2012-12-18, 18:34
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Dec 2012
Hi all,

Q2Pro is being actively worked on by our team over here at http://aq2world.com, it has more advanced features than r1q2 and it's being worked on as we speak to add more features on a regular basis.

https://github.com/jayschwa/q2pro
2012-12-18, 18:43
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I find it so funny, and also unbelievable how BACKWARDS Quake2 is in terms of development compared to QuakeWorld. This coming from a guy who had played from late 1998 to 2003..

Also, can't believe how many Q2 players there are still today! We should try to make them come and play QW, when I discovered QW I immediately abandoned Q2, and everybody should do that!

In all honesty, GL folks! :p
http://slip.4.pl/ - unblocking myspace facebook firewall
2012-12-18, 19:14
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Before you start with sth like "nquake2" have a look at:

http://q2online.net/baseq2

This is a project of hifi (good guy from ). He has the support of darksaint, me, and many more currently working and dev'ing the (Action)-Quake 2 scene. Yes, although we're more Action Quake 2 guys, we also have an eye for Quake 2 when it comes to general stuff.

Also:
  • R1Q2 is not the best Q2 client. Q2Pro is, as Q2Pro has MVD capabilities and is still in development.
  • Want more info on today's Quake 2? Come to #aq2world -- at least we can give you all infos about Action Quake 2 today. ;-) And, client-wise, we know what's happening.
The guy from #qwnet with the ServeMe bots. Also, #aq2world in case anyone cares. ;-)
2012-12-18, 21:57
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Regarding the comments on Q2Pro, I agree that it is currently the most advanced and actively developed client right now. I've been following its progress for several months now, and have contacted the author (Andrey Nazarov aka 'skuller') on a couple of occasions with some questions and feature requests.

I have plans to eventually replace R1Q2 with Q2Pro in the Q2S installer, but I've decided to wait until an official version is released as the rate of development has been fairly active lately and also because of the large number of changes since the last version (r1093) which was released around 18 months ago.


Here are a few things to consider when switching from R1Q2 to Q2Pro:
  • Q2Pro lacks anticheat support
  • Q2Pro has less functional single player support than R1Q2
  • R1Q2 is still the most widely accepted client (despite its shortcomings)


Now I'll be the first to admit that these points have no great importance to me as a player, but when I start to consider the target audience for whom the installer is intended for, then I begin to worry how well it will be received as a whole. But, clearly, Q2Pro is the only real way to go forward at this point, and its many improvements are beginning to eclipse whatever benefit R1CH's anticheat system currently provides (I'm also beginning to doubt its future relevance considering the absence of its author).

So, we're basically at a point where R1Q2 has faded in terms of features and support, but the Q2 community has embraced the client for so long that it's going to take a lot of improvement for another client to win them over (which is the main reason I'm waiting for the next official Q2Pro release before evaluating the situation again).

Anyway, I thought I'd give my thoughts on the matter and the plans for my own project in the chance that it helps you in deciding the future direction of your nQuake2 installer.

Q2Pro homepage: http://skuller.net/q2pro/
Q2Pro GitHub repository: https://github.com/AndreyNazarov/q2pro
2012-12-19, 06:36
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Hello!

I thought I could also give some input as I'm the author of Q2Online which is getting some ground in the AQ2 scene at least for newcomers because of easy launching, updating and cross-platform support (Win32, Linux x86/x86_64 and Intel Mac).

Elysium wrote:
I have plans to eventually replace R1Q2 with Q2Pro in the Q2S installer, but I've decided to wait until an official version is released as the rate of development has been fairly active lately and also because of the large number of changes since the last version (r1093) which was released around 18 months ago.


Has skuller ever said he is going to make an official release at some point? I've set up a build system that will compile Linux x86 and x86_64 builds as well cross-compile for Win32 from the current tree with same features. This enabled Q2Online to be updated rapidly with new features skuller adds.

Elysium wrote:
Q2Pro lacks anticheat support


Ok, I have debated about this many times. Where ezQuake anticheat module was actually cross-platform (R1CH anticheat is only for Win32) and developed by a team (R1CH made it by himself, no one else has seen the code). It also requires that R1CH himself validates each client release by hand and enables anticheat support for it.

I'm not saying R1CH is not a good programmer, he is better than me for sure and has done great things with R1Q2, q2servers.com and many other things. It's just that when you make a black box and it gets a cult following that trusts that black box does what it's supposedly does and it can NOT have any problems with it. This is what annoyed the hell out of me on top of that it was only for Win32.

This all said, I can not recommend using the anticheat thingy because it discriminates against Linux/Mac players and there is no guarantee it is effective without any audition. There are some Brazilian AQ2 servers Q2Online players and I can't connect because they have anticheat required.

Elysium wrote:
Q2Pro has less functional single player support than R1Q2


This is very true. I talked to skuller about fixing some single player things that would at least make it more playable. For example the ending screen for the demo episode does not work. Cinematics was one he didn't want to add back to the game but that's fair enough for me, I've never actually even seen them.

Elysium wrote:
R1Q2 is still the most widely accepted client (despite its shortcomings)


This seems to be true for non-AQ2 Q2 scene. In AQ2 scene the most used client is by far AprQ2. It has now been challenged by Q2PRO as more players are trying out Q2Online and have liked it.

Elysium wrote:
But, clearly, Q2Pro is the only real way to go forward at this point, and its many improvements are beginning to eclipse whatever benefit R1CH's anticheat system currently provides (I'm also beginning to doubt its future relevance considering the absence of its author).


This was one of my concerns when I told AQ2 scene to NOT use it. It relies solely on one person and if he gets hit by a car, then what?

Anyway, I hope Q2PRO will get more popular as skuller listens to suggestions and makes really neat code. The client itself is very lean and robust and is fully portable with SDL to any SDL supported platform. I made the "Mac port" with merely a few changes.

As for nQuake 2, I'm also into original look rather than retextures and new models and skins. Not that my opinion matters. I might enable using Q2Online to do a 'standalone' installation too intead of installing into Local AppData and creating a shortcut. It doesn't auto-update like that and is not web launchable (Q2Online links automatically install/update the requested mod and connects to a server if wanted).

Also waiting for some Q2 players to work with this as I want the Q2 side also to be perfect along with AQ2 side which is way more mature and usable at this point. So if there are someone who are interested in adding their mod to Q2Online and/or improving baseq2 support (new menu, new default bindings etc.) please contact me in IRC.
2012-12-19, 10:30
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Regarding client side "security module" you have to be aware of the GPL license and what you'r allowed to do and not.

More or less all parts of quakeworld is open source, including the clients and servers. ezQuake team tried to create a security module several years ago, which was proven not only to infringe GPL, but also easy to circumvent/hack. So why bother creating a solution that will only make it a little bit harder for the one who wants to cheat, but give some false sense of safety for non-better-knowing players. I just don't think it's worth it.

With todays scene it's pretty easy to spot cheaters, the servers (or some of them) has been redesigned or fixed making cheating, or atleast important parts of it, a lot harder. You won't get data about other players locations etc.

I think it's better to focus on these things than some very hard-to-do-right security thingie.
2012-12-19, 12:28
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dimman wrote:
Regarding client side "security module" you have to be aware of the GPL license and what you'r allowed to do and not.

More or less all parts of quakeworld is open source, including the clients and servers. ezQuake team tried to create a security module several years ago, which was proven not only to infringe GPL, but also easy to circumvent/hack. So why bother creating a solution that will only make it a little bit harder for the one who wants to cheat, but give some false sense of safety for non-better-knowing players. I just don't think it's worth it.

With todays scene it's pretty easy to spot cheaters, the servers (or some of them) has been redesigned or fixed making cheating, or atleast important parts of it, a lot harder. You won't get data about other players locations etc.

I think it's better to focus on these things than some very hard-to-do-right security thingie.


Exactly. In the end the only way to be sure is a LAN party with live spectators.
2012-12-19, 14:54
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Jissse wrote:
I'm not a Q2 player, but i want to give it a try as soon as you make a package !


Can't recall ever trying aq2, but if this package gets released I'll be eager to try.
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2012-12-19, 17:05
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bps wrote:
Jissse wrote:
I'm not a Q2 player, but i want to give it a try as soon as you make a package !


Can't recall ever trying aq2, but if this package gets released I'll be eager to try.


You can use Q2Online to play AQ2 instantly. nQuake 2 would probably not have AQ2 support and would focus on vanilla Q2.

More launch links at http://aq2world.com/.
2012-12-19, 17:53
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With the MVD support in latest q2pro/q2admin, we've found it very easy to find cheaters that goes beyond anticheat -- Active Administration. Any player at any time can visit the demo repository of servers that are participating to watch past demos of all teamplay matches played since the inception of the MVD feature. If there's a concern, a player can watch the demo, send it to administration to review, and based off of evidence can act accordingly.

I think it's more fair and accurate than any anticheat protocol that could be invented, but I'm biased
2012-12-19, 23:10
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hifi wrote:

Has skuller ever said he is going to make an official release at some point?


Here's a quote from one of his e-mail replies to me:

Andrey Nazarov wrote:

Yes, due to the number of pending changes in git there will probably be
one more release. Not sure about the date.


hifi wrote:

Ok, I have debated about this many times. Where ezQuake anticheat module was actually cross-platform (R1CH anticheat is only for Win32) and developed by a team (R1CH made it by himself, no one else has seen the code). It also requires that R1CH himself validates each client release by hand and enables anticheat support for it.


I fully agree with your position on R1CH's anticheat module, my only concern was if the community at large was ready to abandon its use. This is something I have to take into consideration when I'm looking to have my installer package be accepted by the tastyspleen community (where there are still several supporters of the anticheat system and both R1Q2 / AprQ2 clients). In my case I'm simply waiting until I feel the time is right, and when I think I can present something that most players will find acceptable as a replacement.

I must say, it's great that we've managed to connect with one another on this thread to share our thoughts and progress on our efforts. I'm also of the opinion that an 'nQuake2' installer is likely to have the most success in reaching more widespread attention, so if anything we discuss here can be of benefit to empezar then I feel it's a positive contribution.
2012-12-20, 11:40
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Elysium wrote:
hifi wrote:

Has skuller ever said he is going to make an official release at some point?


Here's a quote from one of his e-mail replies to me:

Andrey Nazarov wrote:

Yes, due to the number of pending changes in git there will probably be
one more release. Not sure about the date.



Ok, nice. Though that 'one more release' raises some concerns about the future of Q2PRO.

Elysium wrote:
... my only concern was if the community at large was ready to abandon its use ...


They must be. Otherwise the community will sink with the anticheat fail boat. I'm all for aggressive killing of it. People must be educated why it's not a good thing to limit the playing experience when the scene is already really small.

Along with the technical problems that GPL violation is also serious. I didn't remember ezQuake anticheat module was removed because of GPL violations. Though R1CH's anticheat is not only a module but statically linked with the executable so it's much more worse GPL wise.

Elysium wrote:
I must say, it's great that we've managed to connect with one another on this thread to share our thoughts and progress on our efforts. I'm also of the opinion that an 'nQuake2' installer is likely to have the most success in reaching more widespread attention, so if anything we discuss here can be of benefit to empezar then I feel it's a positive contribution.


nQuake2 will probably be the most widely used vanilla Q2 installation package. I though hope Q2Online will also get some player base and our tutorial maps will be useful for new players once we have them finished (QuakeLive style).
2012-12-22, 09:45
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How do I build a Q2Pro windows binary? I've never built a windows binary before.
2012-12-23, 12:12
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Hi,

hifi wrote:

Elysium wrote:
... my only concern was if the community at large was ready to abandon its use ...


They must be. Otherwise the community will sink with the anticheat fail boat. I'm all for aggressive killing of it. People must be educated why it's not a good thing to limit the playing experience when the scene is already really small.


I definitely agree that globally forcing anticheat is undesirable, as it excludes all platforms except Windows NT based systems.

This is indeed an argument I've made for years, and it's why at tastyspleen we don't globally force anticheat.

That said, as a longtime admin of Q2 servers, I've found anticheat to be a decidedly useful tool as a first line of defense against probable cheaters. Rather than force AC globally, we apply it on a case-by-case basis.

Granted AC only works on Windows, but then most of the Q2 population and most of the hacks are also on Windows. So long as one takes care not to unjustly exclude non-Windows clients, AC can be helpful.

Now that AC is no longer maintained, its effectiveness is fading; but as one can see it's still doing some useful work:

http://stats.antiche.at/?ip=67.228.69.114&t=s


hifi wrote:

Along with the technical problems that GPL violation is also serious. I didn't remember ezQuake anticheat module was removed because of GPL violations. Though R1CH's anticheat is not only a module but statically linked with the executable so it's much more worse GPL wise.


On the contrary, r1ch jumped through the proper hoops to avoid GPL entanglement with the standard r1q2/anticheat distribution.

anticheat.dll is dynamically linked, and instead of bundling it with r1q2, it is an optional download which is managed by the R1Q2Updater module which runs on the client system.

However, if we are currently distributing anticheat.dll as part of our Q2S bundle, then this is arguably a GPL violation and we should change the package so that anticheat.dll is not bundled.

This is an issue that had escaped my notice, so I appreciate your having mentioned it.


Regards,

quadz
2012-12-25, 13:21
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quadz wrote:
Granted AC only works on Windows, but then most of the Q2 population and most of the hacks are also on Windows. So long as one takes care not to unjustly exclude non-Windows clients, AC can be helpful.


And you force people to use specific clients and client versions. Not all like that.

quadz wrote:
On the contrary, r1ch jumped through the proper hoops to avoid GPL entanglement with the standard r1q2/anticheat distribution.

anticheat.dll is dynamically linked, and instead of bundling it with r1q2, it is an optional download which is managed by the R1Q2Updater module which runs on the client system.

However, if we are currently distributing anticheat.dll as part of our Q2S bundle, then this is arguably a GPL violation and we should change the package so that anticheat.dll is not bundled.


ezQuake's anticheat was exactly like that, an external library loaded by the client. It was GPL incompatible as previously stated.

I don't see any future for any anticheat for any open source game. Server side detection of 'weird' behaviour is something that can be used to monitor and report possible cheaters to admins and even then it can only be used as a trigger for manual inspection. I've seen such thing misused in TF2 to ban mediocre players so I'm not a big fan of such systems. It's what old Q2Admin did/does with ratbot detection IIRC.

Seriously, no anticheats anymore. Let's focus on something more productive to get more new players interested in these old fast paced games with way more interesting gameplay than triple A over the counter shooters.
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