User panel stuff on forum
  123 posts on 5 pages  First page12345Last page
General Discussion
2011-10-04, 15:06
Member
17 posts

Registered:
May 2006
So I'm sure this idea has been suggested and discussed in the past by numerous people, but to my knowledge it has not actually been deployed yet (I know there were FFA tournaments, but nothing with TDM i think). The reason why I came up with this now is the endless discussion lately about the div1/div2 situation. At the moment there are several "div0" clans which are basically unbeatable and in most cases simply rape pretty much all other clans out there. BLT has basically been harassed into div1 and see the result of their first two matches in div1.

I had been brainstorming about this concept with Milton and some other players some time ago (at least a year ago) and it seems like a good way to get people more motivated and give them incentive to play and maybe become more active. I think Milton had suggested to have a mixing tournament where the team lineup changes with each new match in the tournament and basically in the end have playoffs with the players who achieve the highest points in the season.

My idea was to setup teams through some kind of smart matching system (which I will explain below) and then keep these teams throughout the tournament.
The main purpose of this tournament obviously being that every team should have a realistic chance to go to playoffs and win.

The most important thing here is obviously how these teams should be mixed and matched to make the playground as equal as possible. My initial proposal for this is to rate each player separately with a specific score based on their individual skill. What is important to keep into account when going through this rating process is to make it so that you don't get more than 2 div0 players in the same team or more than 3 div2+ players in the same team. This shouldn't be too difficult to achieve with specific rating mechanics which will be used in the selection process.

Of course this is a very rough guideline and I'm curious what others think of this proposal for a new tournament. Also I am curious (by means of the Poll) who would be interested in competing in such a tournament if it were to take off.

Also I would want to know if there are any suggestions how to get this thing going ( maybe an EQL spin-off )

Peace out!
Springz
2011-10-04, 16:02
Member
31 posts

Registered:
Oct 2009
Great idea, Springs
2011-10-04, 16:31
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
Hot idea dude!! I'm "all-in"
It would be a nice change and at least worth trying out. I wonder what criteria should be used to assess a player?

- individual skill (aim+movement etc)
- TP ability
- reading the game
- connection
- knowledge of the maps (perhaps not that important when it comes to tb3 but definitely worth considering as far as kenya maps are concerned)
- experience
etc...

What do you think?
2011-10-04, 16:32
Member
518 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I like the idea, however it should be just div1 & 2. Adding div3 players will make the gap/learning curve to big.

Only who is going to rate all those players and based on what?
2011-10-04, 17:06
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
murdoc wrote:
I like the idea, however it should be just div1 & 2. Adding div3 players will make the gap/learning curve to big.

Because the gap between div 2 and 3 is bigger than 1 and 2?
2011-10-04, 17:10
Member
17 posts

Registered:
May 2006
Kalma wrote:
murdoc wrote:
I like the idea, however it should be just div1 & 2. Adding div3 players will make the gap/learning curve to big.

Because the gap between div 2 and 3 is bigger than 1 and 2?

Because div3 players will pull down the div1 skilled players too much so technically your statement is correct Kalma. I would have to agree with Murdoc's suggestion and was actually planning to mention this myself too in my initial Poll post but I forgot about it.

Maybe it's an idea to set up a second tournament and exclude any div0 and even div1ish players so that the low skilled players can have a chance to have fun without having div0 players put them down.
2011-10-04, 17:20
Member
17 posts

Registered:
May 2006
Kapitan Kloze wrote:
Hot idea dude!! I'm "all-in"
It would be a nice change and at least worth trying out. I wonder what criteria should be used to assess a player?

- individual skill (aim+movement etc)
- TP ability
- reading the game
- connection
- knowledge of the maps (perhaps not that important when it comes to tb3 but definitely worth considering as far as kenya maps are concerned)
- experience
etc...

What do you think?

I think that's going to take some reviewing before we can be sure it's a qualification which will have value when scoring players. Also there must be some intelligent way of placing div0 players into the teams. If possible there can't be more than one in the same team I guess.
2011-10-04, 18:02
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
Someone wise, experienced and not biased to anyone should evaulate ppl with ratings 1-10 in each category. And then use the seeding system (div0-div3) which will draw ppl accordingly.
And I dont agree with exluding div3, they're not black sheep and should benefit too!
2011-10-04, 18:18
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
I would join just to get rated by the QW High Council.

How big would the teams be? Four players would lead to someone not showing up and then WOs. More than four and the team skill level changes with lineup. And who decides who plays...?
2011-10-04, 18:58
Member
2 posts

Registered:
Aug 2011
Good idea matey. Lets play!
2011-10-04, 19:46
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
The idea sucks since its hard to get ppl online even in clans they are used to playing in. sry
Chosen
2011-10-04, 20:12
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
Yeah, qw has died. Lets close this page and delete the game once and for all.
2011-10-04, 22:01
Member
17 posts

Registered:
May 2006
It appears so Kloze
So much for presenting new idea's to the qw scene to try and boost the activity a bit.
I'm done with eql this season since I was nicely kicked from my own clan without notice and then told I can't join anymore due to "OMG" overpowered div1 action.
2011-10-05, 00:01
Member
368 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
I think people would be more interested in what their perceived rating is, that actually playing the games
One option might be to use that QW Ratings app by Cyanide, although obviously it is not without flaws.

As mentioned though I am not sure how great the motivation would be when some players would rather be practicing or playing EQL with their clan. It's bad enough already if you have 4 players online but one of you is doing something else.
There is also a danger of it breaking up certain clans or causing their activity to drop if the have one or two players who find they prefer playing in this mix team.
The biggest problem is of course going to be actually getting the team all ready to play at the same time. A team of only 4 players, who have been randomly thrown together, may struggle to get regular games especially if for example they have a div0 superstar who wants to be playing with his 'proper' clan where possible. Most clans have more than 4 players because they know they need some backup.

I may be mistaken but I seem to remember something similar was tried with 2on2 some years ago?
2011-10-05, 06:24
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Well, you posted an idea and I told you why I think it wouldnt work.

About being kicked from your clan and not allowed to join... You are allowed to join a div2 team in EQL, just not any of the top teams since they are strong enough already. Unless they swap you for someone of their good players that is.
Chosen
2011-10-05, 07:22
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
To avoid epic failure of such event (= inactivity, as happened in the random teams 2on2 tournament few years ago), I suggest you run this event at fixed days at fixed time, and accept registrations one hour before the start of every round - so that you are 100% sure everybody who registered knows for sure they have the time to actually play that day. It puts higher requirements on you as the admin (be there for every round, prepare the teams quickly, etc.), but I think it's a necessity.
2011-10-05, 07:44
Member
125 posts

Registered:
Jan 2008
I love this idea as well, I think it will be hard to pull it off due to ppl not playing. But it might be worth a try.
Otherwise I have another idea which is closer to what johnny said. I will pitch this when I get the time to write it down.
2011-10-05, 10:39
Administrator
2047 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
The downside of such an arrangement that Johnny suggests is that the knowledge transfer would be gone (no practice games happening), and then it misses the whole point? It would turn into regular mix games instead.
www.facebook.com/QuakeWorld
2011-10-05, 12:22
Member
17 posts

Registered:
May 2006
The idea Johnny suggests was also suggested by Milton as I stated in my original post. And as Ake Vader says the big downside to this is that there is no "team" effort any more and it just turns into regular mix games. The point of my proposal is to create new teams based on a random selection and then try and diversify things a bit.
2011-10-05, 13:31
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
So when are starting to evaulate players and who is going to do it
Stop yo' bitchin' you negative Nancies :E
2011-10-05, 13:48
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Yeah because everyone with a different opinion is either whining or bitching!
Ofc I hope this would work, but just check other teams with random members, how long do they last?

Or, what am I hoping will work? Getting more activity? Getting a more skilled playerbase?
I think ppl pick up the tips and tricks of 4on4 in normal mix games.
And the activity always picks up during EQL/NQR seasons.

Other ways of getting clanless and/or inactive players together might work better. Just check out mofos/odd/amis. Seems to work out kinda well.
Chosen
2011-10-05, 13:57
Member
518 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Are those teams suppose to be made at the beginning of the season and stick together for the rest of the season? Or is this lineup gonna be changed along the way?
2011-10-05, 14:10
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
The goal was to get as even lineups as possible so I guess that work would be put down in the beginning and then let them stick together?

Ah, see what a little reading could do: "and then keep these teams throughout the tournament"
Chosen
2011-10-05, 14:18
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
When I read the headline I thought it was going to be new teams every round. Score would be kept for players, not teams. Kind of "best teamplayer" competition or something.
2011-10-05, 15:51
Member
518 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
That just sucks, the point is to try to get those div2 players to a higher level so that more teams can compete in div1 on same level.

Continue changing teams/lineups won't help
2011-10-05, 16:30
Administrator
1022 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
murdoc wrote:
That just sucks, the point is to try to get those div2 players to a higher level so that more teams can compete in div1 on same level.

Continue changing teams/lineups won't help

Second that.
2011-10-05, 17:04
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
The "transfer of knowledge" seems to be happening in EQL with div1 players dropping down to div2. Public service from the kindness of their heart.
2011-10-22, 03:27
Member
123 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Random is OK but I think one of the easiest ways it a captain based draft league. Ranking can work but it's hard to get data on players. I've posted on this before but I'm from USA so no one probably cares what I say. :-) The Euro scene has gone from 67 teams in EQL3 to 32 in EQL14. The division system is nice but once the scene get smaller I believe it starts to fail. I know about failing communities because that's happened to each Quake scene here. The problem is at a certain point clans aren't good for competition anymore since all the best players band together and it's not really about QW anymore but the metagame of politics of team building and denying talent to your competitors. There is a ZDaemon based CTF league which does a draft and has gone 10 seasons with a much smaller scene than the EU QW scene. Here is a decent forum with some discussions that might spark some ideas - http://forums.intldoomleague.org/index.php?board=17.0

Key points of a captain based draft league -

-Quality captains are the most important, you need someone with leadership, responsibility and skills to step up to lead a team. They also need good knowledge all around in order to make decisions on strategy, tactics, positions, and most importantly draft a squad. Without a good captain teams are dead in the water.

-The draft itself. Basically captains go in order then the order reverses such as 1, 2, 3, 4 then 4, 3, 2, 1, etc. For a 4v4 league you'd need to probably draft 5-7 per team or more to ensure no problems with activity or scheduling. IDL does the draft live on radio and it's a very fun event, if time consuming.

-Players and captains especially need to be professional and competitive. If you end up teamed with someone you dislike you need to suck it up and do your best. You want the best players mixed onto teams with the worst players. You'd be amazed how fast some people can learn when they play with the best in a competitive scenario for a season. The best players would be the starting lineup but the other players would stand in when they couldn't show up and help with practice. Teams need to stay together for a regular season so they can mesh together and grow, then playoffs roll around and we see who is the best draft team.

Why it works is almost all due to the draft itself. It makes players meet new people, grow in skills and teams much more competitive with each other. Instead of having just 1-2 teams that can win you'd end up with many. Each new season teams change and the losers previously have a chance to try again with a totally new team.

Why I think it might fail in EU QW is because people are so used to their clans and want to speak their own language, etc. The point of a draft is not to draft your own clan but to put together the best team you can. I think all the different countries in Europe help the Quake scene there a lot since it makes super teams less likely due to language and culture. In the USA we often have super clans form and frankly it is rather boring. These super teams often have 2nd string lineups which can best almost everyone not to mention their starting lineup.

Parity between teams is good. Almost all IDL players just play in the draft league now and there is little to no clan play anymore. Clans are more about politics and the zero-sum game of talent acquiring. A draft league leads to much more parity between teams and you always have a new season to try with a new team if you don't do well in the last one. I'd love to see this in EU QW.
2011-10-23, 08:46
Member
139 posts

Registered:
Feb 2011
make teams with:

1 or 2 - div1 player
1 or 2 - div2 players
1 or 2 - div3 players

but why am i posting anyway, div 3 is excluded =P
2011-10-23, 09:03
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
Great post PG, I'm sure QW scene will have to do something similar to what you've presented in order to survive.
In addition to Muffin's post: there's another div in QW you have to mention - div0. Not many ppl there but you have to differentiate between div1 regulars and div0.
  123 posts on 5 pages  First page12345Last page