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European Quake League
2010-08-24, 13:26
Member
174 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
We have put up this to get some opinions of you, the players. The following season will be tb3 + kenya (nothing to discuss about this please, keep it to map suggestions). So the question is: Will it be tb3 + 2 kenya or would you like a bigger pool as it has been in the EQLadder? There would of course be set some limits on mapchoices but it would include most of the played maps in this case.
2010-08-24, 13:48
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Nov 2008
tb3 + 2 kenya because it's hard enought to learn 2 maps, and even harder if we are talking about teamplay.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2010-08-24, 13:56
Member
63 posts

Registered:
Jan 2009
I'd prefer 2 aswell, gonna be too many maps to keep track of, and most clans aren't even active yet so not much time to start practicing a bunch of "new" maps.
Tho I am curious to know which kenya maps are most likely to be in eql 12?
2010-08-24, 14:14
Member
391 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I would like to see my q1anni-beta3map in mappool Therefor I would spend time on the lightning too
2010-08-24, 14:35
Member
130 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I agree with having a 5 map pool for sure.

As for the maps, cmt3 seems like an obvious choice. It's a good solid map and is by far the most liked outside of tb3 from what I have seen on the servers. I really prefer keeping the same 5 maps around for multiple seasons. This so that we will actually have a 5 map pool, instead of having 3 map pool with 2 maps added that most people won't bother with

The fifth map is a bit harder. Personally I really like cmt1b and think that map has so much to offer. But it seems like there are a lot of people out there with strong feelings against it for some reason.

I always have fun playing cmt4, but to be honest the map is pretty ridiculous with millions of cells and the quad room etc. On the plus side many people are already quite familiar with it.

We played some schloss on the ladder this summer, but unfortunately that map just seems a little too small for 4on4 action.

grim was also played on the ladder, but not quite that much. It seems like a good basic map that copies the items from e1m2 (ya+ga+mh+rl, no lg). Not too exciting, but quite simple to learn and might be fun. Or might just be a huge boomstick party.

The last version of q1anni-beta that I tested wasn't very promising IMO. Stacking powerful items next to each other and LG next to quad etc. Don't know if there has been a new version since.

Other maps that could be considered, but I'm not familiar with enough to really give an opinion include at least: bay12beta, cmt5b, enraged, midcit

The episode maps really don't fit 4on4 play at all, and I truly hope one of them won't be picked. Although I guess some of the tdm versions might be a bit better.

--

Cliff notes: Please include cmt3
2010-08-24, 15:02
Member
45 posts

Registered:
Oct 2009
I think keeping it to 5 maps is the best option because it feels a lot more focused and solid competitively to have a strict set of no more than 5 maps. If it come to bo5 we get to see all the maps in theory, but in bo3 we get to see strategic map drops and such.

cmt3

I think this map is solid and should definitely be included. It seems well accepted which is a bonus to it making the pool I suppose.

cmt1b

I believe this map has the most potential on a high level to be the strongest competitive map custom-wise. It has so many options and tactics that just haven't been explored fully yet and to play the map well vs good teams will demand very smart teamplay, positional plays etc. I do not know why the map receives such ill thoughts from many people, but when pushed for reasoning it always appears to be baseless imo.

cmt4

This map seems to be a really mix friendly map although no-one ever plays it in mix right now =). However it really is a bit ridiculous with the amount of cells and the way the RA is so extremely difficult to control, although my experience is limited on the map. I don't think I would be adverse to seeing it in EQL.

bay12 beta

This map seemed very promising initially but it felt like there were a lot of issues with it, I'd be interested to see a revised version to finalise my opinion. Anyone know what's up with this map atm, is it still being developed?

anni's dm14 remake

As a former q3 top 4on4 player I'm extremely familiar with dm14 and it was one of my strongest maps teamplay wise in q3.

All I have to say for this remake is - fucking no

It ig nores so many of qw's 4on4 mechanics, it feels like the map maker is just trying to get lucky, that's my honest opinion.

Conclusion:

cmt3 + 1b are my primary picks for sure but I would not be adverse to seeing cmt4.
2010-08-24, 15:20
Member
66 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
cmt3+1b would be my vote.
2010-08-24, 15:54
Member
39 posts

Registered:
Feb 2009
tb3+cmt3. Toss and rnd for the decider in bo5's.
2010-08-24, 15:58
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
tb3+ 2 addendums. Not more
2010-08-24, 16:26
Member
459 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
tb3 + 2. 5 map pool is enough. tb3 + cmt3 + e1m3 / e3m7 would be my favorites.
2010-08-24, 21:41
Member
397 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Cmt3 is the only non-TB3 map I can enjoy so it gets my vote. Guess there's not much else out there, so maybe cmt1 again for the 2nd kenya?
2010-08-24, 21:45
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
cmt4 and cmt1b
2010-08-24, 21:46
Member
119 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
cmt3 and 1b are the best out of the nontb3 ;O
so yea tb3+2 only
2010-08-25, 01:22
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Please not cmt1. It's worse than the holocaust.
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2010-08-25, 06:38
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I can't understand the popularity of cmt3. The gameplay in it is such ffa. Or maybe that is why...
2010-08-25, 09:43
Member
693 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
CMT3 + E2M2TDM!
2010-08-25, 09:53
Member
48 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
Why Kenya and not episode maps? Would be nice to see an all official idmaps allowed eql for once. I mean when was the last time you saw a 4on4 on e1m3 or e3m7?
2010-08-25, 09:55
Administrator
2047 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Rille wrote:
Why Kenya and not episode maps? Would be nice to see an all official idmaps allowed eql for once. I mean when was the last time you saw a 4on4 on e1m3 or e3m7?

Was quite a while ago...but maybe there's a good reason for it!
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2010-08-25, 10:13
Member
198 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
gaz wrote:
CMT3 + E2M2TDM!

Le precis, tb3 + those two, perhaps cmt4
2010-08-25, 10:48
Member
55 posts

Registered:
Jan 2009
tb3 with cmt3 and cmt1b
2010-08-25, 10:53
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
It will be possible to play episode maps in the ladder atleast.

Keep suggesting maps for EQL12.
Seems like most ppl want 5 maps but noone is saying those extra 2 must be cmts.
Chosen
2010-08-25, 14:42
Member
67 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
My first vote would me cmt3 and cmt1b. But when i think about it a bit i realise that we then have 2new maps that is just like dm3. To make quake a bit more fun i rather se shloss instead of cmt1b. Thats a map who is a bit different, and still realy good to play.
So CMT3+Shloss would be my vote
2010-08-25, 17:40
Member
368 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
Rille wrote:
Why Kenya and not episode maps? Would be nice to see an all official idmaps allowed eql for once. I mean when was the last time you saw a 4on4 on e1m3 or e3m7?

There is no strict definition of "kenya". I think some people use it to mean "anything but tb3", i.e. both custom and episode maps.

5 map pool seems fine to me, ideally dm2 would be excluded but it is popular so probably something like dm2-dm3-e1m2-cmt3-cmt1b.
Personally when I look at dm2 it is no better fundamentally than cmt3 or cmt1b as a 4on4 map, especially given the size of it and excessive gimmickery (I'm convinced if dm2 came out today as a custom map it would get a hostile reaction and people would go on about how lame all the buttons, traps etc are, how the corridors are too tight in places etc). I can see the appeal for 2on2 or 3on3, but I think it just got accepted as a 4on4 map because it is the second best DM* map for that number of players (and of course movement was much slower in the old days). To me it is pretty ludicrous that a map can be considered 'untouchable' in both 1on1 and 4on4 tournaments, it just seems wrong that a map can be deemed suitable for both 2 and 8 players.

But I digress, I'm not that stupid that I think dm2 could possibly be excluded from tournaments these days. Don't go overboard on having too many kenya maps because that is just giving extra ammunition to the haters, making it easier to pick holes. Focus on getting an extra 2 maps at least somewhat accepted in the way that we were able to get aerowalk and ztndm3 kinda accepted-ish in the duel scene. cmt3 and cmt1b (to a lesser extent) seem best positioned for this IMO.

I agree with Medar's comment that Schloss is too small for 4on4. I don't think there is necessarily a problem with the layout, just that it needs to be scaled up 20% in size.
2010-08-25, 18:26
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Question is whether the goal is a) to standardize some 5 maps map pool, or b) to try something a bit "new" in every second EQL. In the first case it's probably cmt1b and cmt3. In the second case you should go for enraged. The map has been tested in 4on4 and as for design it looks the best out of all 4on4 maps I'd say. Which way EQL wants to go is up to them, the admins.

HangTime wrote:
I'm convinced if dm2 came out today as a custom map it would get a hostile reaction and people would go on about how lame all the buttons, traps etc are, how the corridors are too tight in places etc

And I'm sure even the most orthodox kenya haters would agree with this, but that's kinda the whole point. For one group of people it's not important whether a map is "good" or not. They would even question attempts for "objective evaluation" of any map. What matters to them is only how long it has been played, as they enjoy finding "the perfect gameplay" on those few maps. Then there is a group of people who just want to play more than 3 maps and think that playing the same 5 or 7 maps would be better, bring some more diversity into the game. Finally, there is a group of people who want to play something new from time to time and want to try new maps and not stay with same maps for too long. Again, it's up to EQL who they want to make happy. The map choices for every group is obvious. I guess what matters is which group is the loudest one
2010-08-25, 18:30
Administrator
1847 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
HangTime wrote:
ideally dm2 would be excluded

I wouldn't waste time on 4on4 if there was no dm2. I can understand the issues with dm2 in duel, but I can't see any problem with it in 4on4, the gameplay is different from dm3 (and that's a good thing)

I like cmt1b, cmt3 I don't give much for, I would like to see another map take it's place, e2m2tdm maybe?
2010-08-25, 18:34
Administrator
867 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I vote tb3 + cmt3 + schloss/cmt4.
I'm sticking to poker/sc2 if cmt1 is in the mappool this season too.
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2010-08-25, 18:36
Administrator
1847 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
You can play random maps in sc2, but not cmt1b in qw?
2010-08-25, 18:55
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
cmt3 and cmt4 are much better than cmt1b imo but presonally id rather see two episode maps instead of cmt maps
Chosen
2010-08-25, 18:59
Member
119 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
what was your reason again bps? what sticks in my mind is that you kept mentioning that you just don't like how it looks, but im sure theres more (hopefully) ;p
2010-08-25, 19:44
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
HangTime wrote:
Personally when I look at dm2 it is no better fundamentally than cmt3 or cmt1b as a 4on4 map, ...

It doesn't matter if the new maps are "fundamentally" better. That is not the issue. There are probably several maps that are fine. TB3 has been the standard so long that they have largely defined the gameplay. Even if we could objectively rank them as worse than CMT, they still play better with the players we got, because they are what the players know. They "are" QW 4on4. If CMT maps had come with quake and DMx maps as customs, the latter would be the "not quake".

Some people just don't want to learn new maps. Too much effort. This is the majority of the opposition. This is the issue.

It will take a long time to create a tb5 or a new tb3. And if it happens, it's largely due to the above group quitting.


Back to topic: e2m2, midcit. Not dm3-like and will disrupt the efforts for an established tb5.
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