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2010-07-28, 23:35
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Mar 2006
An[other] attempt to make a free Quake replacement for multiplayer.

But this guy has talent:

http://quakeone.com/~images/news/knight_dp.jpg


Read up on his project:

http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod-releases/works-progress/5763-tzunami-gpl-quake-client-development.html

He prefers Quakeworld for multiplayer. As a hardcore NetQuaker who has a lot of respect for what the Quakeworld community has accomplished, but otherwise hates your physics ... I won't hold his bad taste against him.
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2010-07-29, 09:20
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Oct 2006
Coming up with a project name and designing a cool font is all good and nice, but the one big thing you need for free Quake is the player model. Everything else is either already available: maps (GPLed by Romero), textures (QRP), weapon/item models (there are tons), sounds (there's a hi-def pack somewhere).
2010-07-29, 09:25
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Jan 2006
QRP are derivates of the id1 textures, not free.
"hi-def" soundpack: if you mean mindgrid's, that contains a lot of non-free sounds.
2010-07-29, 09:34
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Oct 2006
http://facelift.quakedev.com/retexture/faq/:
The textures are made from scratch and are copyright by their respective authors and, collectively, this project. These textures are free to use in any project, be it commercial or non-commercial, on the condition that the work or the derivative product mentions the URL ( http://facelift.quakedev.com ) and name of this project (Quake Revitalizatoin Project) in the credits.
2010-07-29, 22:13
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It doesn't have to be open to be free.... We aren't looking for free speech, rather free beer
2010-07-30, 21:31
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303 posts

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Jun 2007
I wonder why people come up with this idea again and again. I mean, recreating multiplayer for free is nice idea, and very possible, almost all assets are done. But singleplayer? Do you really want to play single or co-op shooting half-assed monsters models (open quartz comes to mind), not to mention without mod compatibility? What's the point of it?

And we don't need GPL to have free QW. What we need is pak1.pak replacement, with maps based on sources released by Romero. This pak can be gpl add-on to shareware version. But... not going to happen, people won't accept it. Why, is beyond me. It's like gpl maps are "unpure" (like: "burn the witches!" for many and they don't want to have anything to do with them.
2010-08-01, 09:32
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Jan 2006
Herb wrote:
This pak can be gpl add-on to shareware version.

Nope, you must not build upon the shareware.
2010-08-01, 14:49
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303 posts

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Jun 2007
I don't mean build upon. If you release pak with 100% free gpl stuff i don't see how it hurts terms of shareware quake license. If it is illegal, then nQuake, all custom graphics, mods, clients etc. that work with shareware version are illegal also.
2010-08-01, 15:12
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Jan 2006
nQuake is a downloader, it downloads and extracts all the stuff for you. As a "coincidence" everything is extracted into the same place and works together. Notice that there is no nQuake package that you could download. There is a downloader that will compose such package for you for personal use. ezQuake packages also do not contain anything from the shareware version.

Of course this debate is purely technical. There can be a free package with instructions "combine this with shareware version and you get something", many games are done like that (from what I played - OpenTyrian, OpenTTD, ... oh and ezQuake).. you are instructed to go and get the files of the original game to be able to play that 'Open' version.
2010-08-01, 15:29
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Oct 2006
nQuake really is one of the greatest achievements of this community, it's made installing Quake so easy that a fully free replacement would hardly have any effect on the number of players.

It's not as if the average Joe Player gives two fucks about the legality of what they're playing, as evidenced by the mqwcl client which was hugely popular for years despite blatantly violating the GPL. And from my understanding, the NQ client ProQuake does exactly that right now but again no one in that community seems to care.
2010-08-01, 16:52
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Nov 2009
Tonik wrote:
nQuake really is one of the greatest achievements of this community, it's made installing Quake so easy that a fully free replacement would hardly have any effect on the number of players.

It's not as if the average Joe Player gives two fucks about the legality of what they're playing, as evidenced by the mqwcl client which was hugely popular for years despite blatantly violating the GPL. And from my understanding, the NQ client ProQuake does exactly that right now but again no one in that community seems to care.

That's right. (Almost) No one cares about licenses. People just download what they want with no consequences. Anyway, Quake player base don't seems to be growing regardless of this fact. But a GPL Quake could make into the repositories of every major linux distribution and attract the attention of some players. I have downloaded and played Warsow and Nexuiz just because all I had to do was type "apt-get install nexuiz" on a terminal to get the game running. Probably a GPL Quake won't bring back Quake's glory days (at least, not per se) but it won't do any harm either.
2010-08-01, 20:26
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Jun 2007
I think it's not like netquakers don't care about illegality of proquake, but simply few of them are aware of it. From player point of view, proquake is the same as any other client out there.
2010-08-03, 03:12
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Mar 2006
ProQuake has the registered check like GLQuake/WinQuake. It can't load custom content with shareware. Even if the map exists, it would say "map not found".
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2010-08-03, 09:06
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Tonik wrote:
But a GPL Quake could make into the repositories of every major linux distribution and attract the attention of some players.

The nQuake installer is GPL, it can just be made into a package for the repositories, I've seen debain packages doing the same before.
2010-08-03, 13:50
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Mar 2006
Zalon wrote:
Tonik wrote:
But a GPL Quake could make into the repositories of every major linux distribution and attract the attention of some players.

The nQuake installer is GPL, it can just be made into a package for the repositories, I've seen debain packages doing the same before.

Step back for a moment ... and look at things from a pure logical standpoint before you read this -- and then consider the implications.

There are fundamentally 5 things very wrong with Quakeworld.

Before I mention the other 4, I'll talk about the circular logic I see in every conversation here regarding legality versus illegality.

Legality matters ... here is why ...

The catch-22 is the more exposure you get, you more likely trouble will surface. So you have a goal where if you actually succeed, the consequences of the goal actually defeat the goal.

Kind of like the guys who made an iPhone port of Quake (no problems there) and then attempted to sell shareware Quake on the iPhone, and that was stopped dead cold.

Or like what happened recently with the Android phone market:

http://techblips.dailyradar.com/story/id-ports-nuked-off-of-android-market/

You guys aren't even using the map textures or the player skin when you are actually playing Quakeworld, yet you are clinging to non-GPL'd id Software content for some reason?

I'm just saying ...
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Is that a roll of toothpicks in your pocket or are you just happy to see Sassa?
2010-08-04, 11:30
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Baker5 wrote:
yet you are clinging to non-GPL'd id Software content for some reason?

And nobody knows the reason
2010-08-05, 03:33
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Mar 2006
Zalon wrote:
Baker5 wrote:
yet you are clinging to non-GPL'd id Software content for some reason?

And nobody knows the reason

But they don't know the reason but you aren't successful in fulfilling your goal.

nQuake has been downloaded a zillion times and you have a net gain of how many players on servers?

Do you call that success? I would honestly call that a historic failure. How can you have so many downloads that results in so few converts?

So little change would result in so much.

Setup a few servers with bunny-hopping disabled (FTEQW server has that option) and with a ruleset that prohibits stuff like r_drawflat, you'd probably be teeming with players. Some of those players would want to evolve and there would be your future player base.

Instead, like a religion those are 2 untouchables in Quakeworld --- the bunny and the ability to trash the graphics. They aren't strengths, they are giant Achilles heals.
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Is that a roll of toothpicks in your pocket or are you just happy to see Sassa?
2010-08-05, 03:49
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Mar 2006
I think Sassa hit the nail on the head in another thread, if the Quakeworld community is going to have a resurgence, you need a committed and wise and promotional Sassa-like guy running things that "gets it".

A weird irony is that although NetQuake is a down point, one really great advantage it is that R00k and I have the unlimited ability to shape things. In Quakeworld, there is a lot of infighting over the direction to take and really does lead to a lot of talk and very little action.

Quakeworld needs a dedicated Sassa-like guy that understands how to promote Quakeworld and think for himself and can see the forest from the trees.

At the current rate of NetQuake development, I think we'll see a full-fledged resurgence within 18 months and a new server protocol that features all the best of NetQuake physics and Quakeworld convenience plus probably some Q2 style of prediction. Just a guess. With a GPL package that can be used with anything whether NetQuake-ish or Quakeworld.
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Is that a roll of toothpicks in your pocket or are you just happy to see Sassa?
2010-08-05, 13:27
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Baker5 wrote:
I would honestly call that a historic failure

How can you call nQuake a historic failure? It does exactly want it was meant to do, make it easy to get QuakeWorld - What it doesn't do, is making people stick around and play, but that was never the intend. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it interesting to play, we can do that by having active tournaments and leagues, especially for rookie players. Something we've had great success with in the past, but somehow noone seems interested in continuing.

Regarding this whole "Free Quake", the only thing I'm interested in is seeing free versions of dm2, dm3, dm4 and dm6 so people who want to spectate the big matches can do that just by downloading nQuake. However today, largely because of Quake Live, the audience we could be interested in attracting is used to watching live stream instead, so this isn't that big a thing anymore - Yet it would still be nice.

Those who want to play will find a way to get pak1, I don't think it being absent in nQuake make much of a difference.

Baker5 wrote:
Instead, like a religion those are 2 untouchables in Quakeworld --- the bunny and the ability to trash the graphics. They aren't strengths, they are giant Achilles heals.

I'll have to disagree, but I'm guessing that you expected most qw players would. I've talked to a lot of players from other games, who have tried QuakeWorld, and one of the things most of them mention as the greatest plus, is the speed. Most are amazed by the speed and the QuakeWorld physics, especially the QuakeLive, the warsow and the CPM players. Hell even my 15 year old nephew found it fun, just because you could bunnyjump, he didn't find playing it that much fun as he was playing vs me :/ - But what do we have to offer compared to QuakeLive, if not the speed? The level of skill required? Well that just put people off.

Instead of looking at what havn't produced new players, we should look at what have, Rookie Tournaments like Ignition and the Team Building Initiative did get us quite some new players and teams. I think something like that would attract more players than a "Free Quake" or servers with bunnyjumping disabled. It just takes a lot of time and dedication to keep it running and interesting for the players. The players are there, and we got a great way to access them via the biggest DeathMatch community on the net.
2010-08-05, 15:22
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Mar 2006
Well, I wasn't trying to troll but to offer an alternate perspective.

One thing that I'm sure we can agree on is that installing Quake is impossible and the crusty exe files that don't run right on today's computers and are incredibly obsolete.

And NQuake does do a great job of that.

I can understand the joy of the speed thing. And I'm really not totally anti-Quakeworld physics, but rather would prefer it as an option in a slightly more perfect.

I do understand the desire to have an authentic Quake experience --- in particular the sounds, even though you guys really don't use any of the original graphics and the maps are GPL.

Still, maybe at some point a GPL replacement will finally happens that makes someone forget about the originals (tough to do, especially the sounds).
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2010-08-05, 18:47
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Feb 2006
tbh, any proper installer for quake nowadays should be aware of steam. Baker has a point though, being able to decompress quake off the CD it came on in win64 is a useful feature too. Legally obtaining quake via steam is not really a problem, although getting people to use steam may be.

The main problem with GPL stuff is the maps. And I don't talk about the original ones here. I mean maps like aerowalk which use id1 textures, that's a copyright violation as much as downloading registered's dm6 is.
moo
2010-08-05, 23:15
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Jun 2007
Baker5 wrote:
Setup a few servers with bunny-hopping disabled (FTEQW server has that option) and with a ruleset that prohibits stuff like r_drawflat, you'd probably be teeming with players. Some of those players would want to evolve and there would be your future player base.

Instead, like a religion those are 2 untouchables in Quakeworld --- the bunny and the ability to trash the graphics. They aren't strengths, they are giant Achilles heals.

Baker5 wrote:
I can understand the joy of the speed thing. And I'm really not totally anti-Quakeworld physics, but rather would prefer it as an option in a slightly more perfect.

I think you are missing something. Bunnyhop is core feature that makes QW what it is. Remove it, and speed is gone and most kenya maps are broken, because many jumps are impossible without it, and many tactics are out of question. Think about it, is QW without bunny that much different from netQuake? I think not, at least not gameplay-wise. Your community have servers setup with that kind of gameplay, and i don't think it benefit QW in any significant way, if "crippled" QW servers would be created, it won't either.

QW is QW. It is QW because it have bunny, broken ankle, 0ms gun switch, pure and competetive gameplay modes. I don't want to play game that have different settings/mods running on each server. That's what put me off from netquake and doom these days. Joining one game, pretty much vanilla Quake. Joining other server and ta-dam! now i have nailgun shooting fire nails and triple grenade launcher or something... The same with doom, one server just doom weapons, on other railguns, fast firing bfgs, grenade launchers, jetpacks and other shit. That's simply ridiculous.

I don't know any classic deathmatch type shooter without advanced movement technique that stayed alive for long. netQuake is exception because it was first game capable of real internet play. People play all these games with strafejumping, bunnyhopping, walljumps, dodging, skiing etc. and love them. Tell Tribes community to get rid of skiing. Tell Q2, Q3, QL guys that strafe-jumping should be disabled. Go and tell Warsow and CPMA devs they should limit movement to running and jumpig because it will make game more accessible... Fast-paced shooters aren't for everyone and never were. Just like everything.

Explain to me, why ability to trash the graphics is bad thing? It's an option. nQuake comes with default settings looking good enough. Don't fool yourself, you won't attract graphic whores attention even with maxed out Darkplaces. Quake still have blocky maps, mostly low poly models, no ragdoll, no realistic physic, model clipping. Use all hi-res assets you want, bloom, bump and normal-map this game to hell, and still you won't impress anybody with it. Because people who think gfx is that important will stick to whatever is released and hyped at the time, and hardcore fps players don't care how game looks, and most of them will scale it down for better visibility and performace. It's personal choice how the game looks. Picmip, drawflat, brightskins, simpleitems, are not cheats, they can't make you better player, but they can make this game more friendly for your eyes.
2010-08-06, 02:32
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Zalon wrote:
Tonik wrote:
But a GPL Quake could make into the repositories of every major linux distribution and attract the attention of some players.

The nQuake installer is GPL, it can just be made into a package for the repositories, I've seen debain packages doing the same before.

But the game content isn't (and I don't know if we can distribute pak0). So I think a nQuake .deb would really appeal only to people who already know/has the game.
2010-08-06, 10:52
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Jan 2006
Bunny isn't a problem, the speed of that is ok. Problem is the speed in which you can die. Join FFA and even if you are quite experienced player, you are going to have many deaths in less than 0.5 secs due to overpowered shaft and no armor. Yeah, some players will call that challenging and fun, but reality is that for most players it's just annoying. Getting rookie duel on is difficult, rookies totally spoil 2on2 and 4on4, therefore FFA is the only place where rookies can touch real online QW, and that place sucks big time. I'd welcome decreased LG power in FFA and some default armor you get when you spawn, somewhere in the range of 50-150 YA. Well I know it's not going to happen, people running these things have other priorities than making QW enjoyable for someone else than themselves.

Spike wrote:
maps like aerowalk which use id1 textures, that's a copyright violation as much as downloading registered's dm6 is.

Uh, are you sure? Did they turn away from their original intentions?
2010-08-06, 12:16
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Jun 2007
To make FFA in QW good experience, weaker shaft and armor is not enough. Modify RL so it will do static 100 damage, give 120 hp on respawn decreasing to 100 1hp/s, beef up sng and ssg, alter the axe so it won't have delay, get rid of that useless plea shooter called nailgun, get rid of backpack in current form - good players don't need to bother picking up ammmo, they harvest it from weaker right now. And don't put duel maps like dm4 and aero on 16 slots server.

Don't get me wrong, i don't want to alter duel, 2on or 4on4. That's where QW shines most, but for FFA too many things doesn't work. And in case of nailgun, it doesn't work at all in any gametype i would be happy to see it outcasted from QW for eternity
2010-08-06, 14:37
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luizera wrote:
But the game content isn't (and I don't know if we can distribute pak0). So I think a nQuake .deb would really appeal only to people who already know/has the game.

Well, they did the same thing for windows fonts, the deb file was just a online installer, it then grapped the fonts from the microsoft server, as the font license allowed individuals to download them.

JohnNy_cz wrote:
Join FFA and even if you are quite experienced player, you are going to have many deaths in less than 0.5 secs due to overpowered shaft and no armor. - FFA is the only place where rookies can touch real online QW, and that place sucks big time.

I'm still wondering why Clan Arena never got popular in Europe, it's the most popular mode for rookies in QuakeLive, hell all the newbs play it. It could work a lot better than a rookie FFA mod, if it was polished for QW.
2010-08-08, 11:50
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Mar 2006
Herb wrote:
Baker5 wrote:
Setup a few servers with bunny-hopping disabled (FTEQW server has that option) and with a ruleset that prohibits stuff like r_drawflat, you'd probably be teeming with players. Some of those players would want to evolve and there would be your future player base.

Instead, like a religion those are 2 untouchables in Quakeworld --- the bunny and the ability to trash the graphics. They aren't strengths, they are giant Achilles heals.

Baker5 wrote:
I can understand the joy of the speed thing. And I'm really not totally anti-Quakeworld physics, but rather would prefer it as an option in a slightly more perfect.

I think you are missing something. Bunnyhop is core feature that makes QW what it is. Remove it, and speed is gone and most kenya maps are broken, because many jumps are impossible without it, and many tactics are out of question. Think about it, is QW without bunny that much different from netQuake? I think not, at least not gameplay-wise. Your community have servers setup with that kind of gameplay, and i don't think it benefit QW in any significant way, if "crippled" QW servers would be created, it won't either.

Herb, let me first tell you about my "secret origins". This might give you some perspective about how I think.

Back in 2003, I intermittently visited FuhQuake.net.

I was heart-broken about how everyone at FuhQuake.net cooperated, how FuhQuake was an amazing client, how everyone worked together.

NetQuake was a shambles. You had the author of XQuake violating the GPL by not releasing the source, server operators violating the GPL making mods of GPL mods, everyone fighting for players, jerk mod authors everywhere doing closed source mods and killing the NetQuake because when they left we were in an Abyss.

I envied Quakeworld and how you guys worked togethered. I tried to convert to Quakeworld a few times, actually. But it didn't feel like the NetQuake I loved. So I held out on the idea of modeling NetQuake after the Quakeworld idea of cooperation.

Needless to say, my observation of the Quakeworld community back then made me hardcore open source.

Herb wrote:
QW is QW. It is QW because it have bunny, broken ankle, 0ms gun switch, pure and competetive gameplay modes. I don't want to play game that have different settings/mods running on each server. That's what put me off from netquake and doom these days. Joining one game, pretty much vanilla Quake. Joining other server and ta-dam! now i have nailgun shooting fire nails and triple grenade launcher or something... The same with doom, one server just doom weapons, on other railguns, fast firing bfgs, grenade launchers, jetpacks and other shit. That's simply ridiculous.

Go back to the true glory days of Quakeworld and you'll find exactly the above available to play. Team Fortress servers, FFA servers with strange mods like RuneQuake and mods no longer remembered.

Don't forget your history. Maybe you only care about hardcore competitive Quakeworld, but if you ignore what more casual players played in the history of Quakeworld, you are doing a disservice to not only Quakeworld's history but to yourself.

Herb wrote:
I don't want to play game that have different settings/mods running on each server.

You are already playing. I was talking about how to enlarge the Quakeworld community to attract new players.

Maybe it would be a benefit if some servers were set up in a way that was totally repulsive to you and totally attractive to newbies. Newbies should be free to play against each other without div0 experts destroying them.

Maybe a few places with settings that div 0 players despise and refuse to play would be a good thing for the future of Quakeworld.

One major problem with Quakeworld is that is it lopsidedly weighted towards catering towards the "elite" established players and their preferences. It not only ignores the past, it ignores the idea of even having a future. It is almost like having a sign up saying "New players not welcomed" ... and how well is that really going to work out?

Are there any players that don't take some time learning to get experienced enough to be competitive? And Quakeworld is heavily weighted against that ever happening.

Hence my statement, a zillion NQuake downloads and so little to show for that ...
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2010-08-09, 00:47
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Jun 2007
With every good game, there is time when people mod it like crazy, and then move on to other things. Only best modes survive and are played years after release. Team Fortress is for sure great mod, but people eventually moved to other versions that replicated this type of gameplay. Problem is, right now in QW community, few people are interested in playing all these mods. Why waste servers to setup mods that nobody will play? Beginner will? No. They'll join empty server and quit.

Quakeworld gameplay is unique. It's the only competitive fps i know that isn't softened to appeal to wider audience. Think of it as of Mount Everest of fps, it may take years to prepare for getting to the top, you may start over and over, not everyone can do it, many would pull back because it kicked their asses too much.

It is impossible to create larger community by splitting it between mods. Core game must be the one most played. Did HL DM benefit from popularity of CS, TF 1.5, Dod? No, it didn't, and it was damn fine DM game (esp with bunny and gauss jumps). Did vQ3 benefit from popularity of CPMA? No, it nearly killed vq3 gameplay. Even QL is altered to appeal more to CPMA players.

And zillion nQuake downloads aren't so efficient because people don't have goddamn pak1.pak and most of them are to lazy or stupid to buy quake from steam/dig out old cd/download illegal copy/type pak1.pak in google and download it form one of two first sites that'll pop.

Past is gone. All these fun mods died out because people no longer wanted to play them. They weren't good enough to survive. Do you really think they are good tool to attract more players?
2010-08-09, 13:00
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Mar 2006
Herb wrote:
Past is gone. All these fun mods died out because people no longer wanted to play them. They weren't good enough to survive. Do you really think they are good tool to attract more players?

Great players are the top of the pyramid, the rest of the pyramid needs to be in place to support that and if you aren't supporting the existence of that rest of pyramid then most of it is probably going to be an echo which fades as the years pass along.

There is no harm in having a healthy bottom of the pyramid. It might even be essential for long-term survival, but that gets to the "chicken or the egg" question.
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2010-08-09, 17:31
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485 posts

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Feb 2006
Bunny is integral part of QW these days. If you are not a QW player you don't understand how bad it would feel if it was turned off.

However, don't overestimate it's effectiveness. A Div1 player without bunnies will still trash a div2 player. It's no excuse. In fact many players would be better off not making so much noise all the time.


QWTF died because it wasn't developed as QW evolved. Better pings, players and bunny put it off balance and at the same time clones were developed on other engines. Success of TF2 shows that the basic concept was very good.

QWDM was lucky that the same evolution only made it a better game.


Ideas for improving FFA are good. Touching weapon damage might just add confusion, though. I think one of the pulls QWTF had was that you spawned with gear.
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