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General Discussion
2020-10-29, 20:40
Member
10 posts

Registered:
Mar 2015
Wanted to refresh my memory on the quakeworld spawns ... did a quick google search and the first match popped up like magic:

https://www.quakeworld.nu/blog/188/ktx-respawns-2#109493

...Google my friend wanted me to see it....
I opened the link and I posted a reply. Noticed it was a blog so decided to post it here instead to give it some exposure.

1.
"...
the spawn model can be abused since you know where the opponent can't spawn.
..."

This new spawn model is abuse because you can be fragged multiple times in the same spawn location by enemy.

2.
"...
you can walk on top of spawn slots without any fear of being respawn telefragged.
..."

No, it is only one spawn location you don't have to worry about, the rest you can still get respawn telefragged.

3.
"...
You can also ignore spawn slots when you are trying to spawnfrag your opponent with luck (gl/rl shot) and choose another visible spawn slot to shoot at. All this of course, if you can actually remember where your opponent respawned the last time.
..."

No, you can ignore one spawn slot not multiple "spawn slots".

Yes, it is better the spawn fragger _try_ to spawn frag their opponent rather than spawning enemy right in front of them as that just makes it easier for continued spawn fragging.

Yes, being able to remember things is a skill you can aquire.

4.
"...
Also you have to take all the spawns into account when flooding luck rockets after a kill. And with some luck, you get two same spawns in a row and end up boomsticking your near-death opponent, taking his dropped rl and spawnfragging him a few times. Or then spawn to his rockets a few time
..."

All the new spawn system means is players will slow spawn to avoid the flood of rockets after a kill, because they know with the new spawn system they might just get hit again as the algorithm puts them right in the firing range. Slowing the entire game down.

No, it isn't considered "luck" to get two same spawn in a row, because enemy is going to hit you with a rocket _before_ you get a chance to react. It is commonly seen in games and isn't considered "lucky".

No, there is no direct causal relationship between getting two same spawns and "then" having to have that happen to your opponent since it is random. It is more likely those were critical frags just thrown away to a meaningless perturbation... not requiring much skill or effort.

5.
"... I had been thinking about how to improve the current KTX respawns without making it too complicated. After a while I came up with a solution that might prove to be good or bad, but we'll never know unless we test it ..."

It is pointless to improve something that is not worse than it is. The ultimate abuse of your spawn model is using the spawn points to put a mostly defenseless player in the firing range, and then thinking that fixes things. It rewards laziness and adds pointless drama. I think it makes good players seem bad, and bad players want to leave the game (because they get meaningless spawn fragged). Your premises for making this subtle change don't make a whole lot of sense and there is not much evidence or demonstratable clear improvement you are going for.

All the mathematical calculations are kinda useless really if in one game the critical frags are decided by randomness and not fair setups. Seems like a complete blunder to make default changes on the whim of a minority of players - some of whom don't even class themselves as duelers where the issue has critical effects in the gameplay, not to mention conflicts of interest in play styles. I think the new spawn model is leading to _more_ campy anxy style of play due to the precious loss of even one frag could lead to a string of meaningless losses.

Bottom line is I "tested it" and it "proves" to be worse... don't even need to make it default to know why.

(Edited 2020-11-02, 17:25)
2020-10-30, 03:01
Member
80 posts

Registered:
Apr 2017
There's currently a silly spawn mode which will always telefrag you if you're standing on a spawn point after killing an opponent. It's a nightmare on DM4 because the main camping spot is also a spawn point - YA Entrance..

I came to the conclusion that the best spawn mode is the one that's purely random. Because if you attempt to make the spawns conditional then they can always be exploited/predicted to some degree. Although conditional spawns would probably work okay on large maps where spawn distance could be taken into account when choosing a spawn position. But distance biased spawns on a small map like DM4 would result in lots of Mega spawns and very few RA spawns.

Perhaps we could have item biased spawns so that if an RA is available then you spawn at RA.. But on DM4 your opponent would just keep on taking RA before killing you, resulting in you then spawning in Mega room because Mega and RL are available there. And so with conditional spawns the game would become very predictable and possibly boring..
2020-10-31, 07:49
Member
10 posts

Registered:
Mar 2015
lemonjuiced wrote:
Because if you attempt to make the spawns conditional then they can always be exploited/predicted to some degree.

What degree of exploitation / prediction is worse in the two following situations:
A: Spawning at mega with lots of health, rockets, a rocket launcher and a degree of freedom of movement to choose when to attack etc..
B: Spawning into a predictable spam rocket where you just died a few moments ago?

lemonjuiced wrote:
But distance biased spawns on a small map like DM4 would result in lots of Mega spawns and very few RA spawns.

No, its an even random distribution between RA and Mega based on your last spawn location. So if you spawned Mega and died you would not spawn there again (it is completely off the table)... thus have a chance of spawning RA next. So the original KTX Spawns helped balance the gameplay and the map out. With current spawns, you spawn at mega over and over again.

lemonjuiced wrote:
And so with conditional spawns the game would become very predictable and possibly boring..

Assuming someone gets a single spawn frag on you, then you get spawned to the same spawn ... firing a rocket there is -very- predictable and easy behavior for a spawnfragger as they are in the area. So no exploring of the map... you immediately get exploited because its more predictable... and the gameplay is anxious and campy.

Once you do not spawn at the same spawn spot twice in a row, the game starts to open up possible strategies, tactics and is more rewarding. You are given a fair chance with (for example) RA and Mega spawns before it changes to new spawns, you have to play those positions well because the spawns _mean_ something.
2020-10-31, 10:12
Member
80 posts

Registered:
Apr 2017
Spawning at the same location twice in a row can sometimes be a good thing. If I spawn at RA then it's good to know that I still have an opportunity to spawn there again the next time I get killed. Also, if you remove the possibility of spawning at the same location twice then your opponent can dismiss your last spawn location and focus on the other spawn locations after killing you.

Perhaps you don't really have an issue with spawning at the same location twice in a row, but rather you just don't want to be spawned near your opponent?.

BTW - I've no issue with replacing the current default spawn model with the an older one because if I'm not mistaken the current spawn model is the one that will always telefrag you if you're standing on a spawn location. It sucks!..
2020-10-31, 15:51
Member
10 posts

Registered:
Mar 2015
lemonjuiced wrote:
Spawning at the same location twice in a row can sometimes be a good thing. If I spawn at RA then it's good to know that I still have an opportunity to spawn there again the next time I get killed.

It may be a good thing but is it a fair or balanced? It is only good from a certain perspective not if you are on the receiving end. You'd surely want sit back at the end of the game and think "I played the best I could and it was as fair as it could be" - that's the problem and I see players leave before it even gets to end.

lemonjuiced wrote:
Also, if you remove the possibility of spawning at the same location twice then your opponent can dismiss your last spawn location and focus on the other spawn locations after killing you.

Yes, I think doing that is more meaningful than a stacked player standing there spawn fragging repeatable.

lemonjuiced wrote:
Perhaps you don't really have an issue with spawning at the same location twice in a row, but rather you just don't want to be spawned near your opponent?.

No, with KTX Respawns you can spawn near opponent depending on how the gameplay developes... in the TB3 there is clusters of spawns located together, but dm6 is probable worse for that. Issue is limiting the richness of gameplay when the map could be opened up for more strategic, tactical and fairer skilled based kills rather than meaningless ones. Also the premises Renzo was outlining had errors and contradictions as I tried to outline. I think the decision flew under the radar for allot of players to make it default, and that it was such a small change (but KTX Respawns was perfection).

lemonjuiced wrote:
BTW - I've no issue with replacing the current default spawn model with the an older one because if I'm not mistaken the current spawn model is the one that will always telefrag you if you're standing on a spawn location. It sucks!..

Yes, you can get freak telefrags I think it sucks too, and also running around dramatically and anxiously trying to make up for random unlucky spawns you had no control over. .
2020-10-31, 23:57
Member
80 posts

Registered:
Apr 2017
This forum isn't very active these days and the recent posts asking for changes to default settings didn't go too well. So maybe ask on Discord if players are open to changing the default spawn method to 'KTX Respawns' and if you get positive feedback you should then try to persuade/bribe a developer to implement the change.

You've got my vote!..
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