User panel stuff on forum
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Rookies' Corner
2015-10-27, 21:22
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
Sup, guys

( first of all, i am not sure if this belongs to qw rookie, but as it is a newbish question, guess somehow it belongs.)

So, im back to qw after many years and things changed a lot.
I m trying to get a optimal configuration, got a Benq monitor coming in the next few days, a fine pc and got a logitech G402.

On the first tests i did, i felt not really smooth like i remember and looked up here in qw.nu for some topics regarding sync and stuff.

found one from renzon, another one from mushi and this one on qw-wiki:
http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Smooth_quake#Display

Looking for a smooth setup + sync between monitor + mouse + fps i got to ask you guys,
does topics are still up to date?

Should i "hack" my usb port to 500hz / 1000hz or thats old stuff?

Quote:
FPS limit fine-tuning
Don't set cl_maxfps to 0. Define a limit, based on the power of your pc. The more the better, but you want a stable value, so you got to figure that number out. The number you choose must be related on your monitor's refresh rate. cl_maxfps can be equal, double, triple, 10 times the value of refreshrate. This usually delivers good results. Just don't set it too high, you want stable fps. Typical values on modern computers are 240 (120x2), 480, 600, 960... which should be more than enough to have a smooth playing experience.

Especially with LCD devices be aware if your FPS limit (cl_maxfps) is a multiplication of your display refresh frequency. For example using 75 Hz display refresh frequency and FPS limit 225 (= 3*75) will be significantly different from using 235 FPS.

Setting cl_maxfps to a value that is below your systems limit also lends cpu time to other processes. This alleviates problems with mouse responsiveness (mouse driver) and CPU spiking (other programs).

[edit]Vsync fine-tuning
While vertical synchronization introduces image lag and forces one to use lower FPS rates than possible with unlimited FPS, on some configurations when fine-tuned it gives much smoother gameplay than when turned off.

To toggle vsync on, type vid_vsync 1 and cl_maxfps 0 in the console. Now you need to determine what is your video lag and FPS. Type show vidlag and show fps; You should use new hud (scr_newhud 1) to have these counters visible. The goal is to have stable FPS equal to your display frequency (60 / 75 / 120 / 150 ...) while having the video lag as low as possible.

Start with setting cl_vsync_lag_fix 1. Your video lag might decrease now, but also FPS may decrease. This is where cl_vsync_lag_tweak comes into play. You have to find the lowest value of the _tweak variable that gives you stable FPS equal to the display frequency. Such a value will decrease the video lag as much as possible without breaking FPS stability. For example tweak set to 0 will decrease video lag to almost 0 ms, but most probably will shut down your FPS rate. And tweak 20 typically won't reduce video lag at all, even if your FPS is super-stable. So find some good value in between.

[edit]Mouse
Use in_mouse 3 (Raw Input), or if that doesn't work in_mouse 2 (Direct Input). Type in_restart to restart input mode.


Also, is this quote from above still usefull ? those calculations between monitor hz, mouse hz, fps?
What should i do?

Plz, give me some help on this subject.

Regards from your oldschooler-newbie :-)
2015-10-27, 22:10
Member
38 posts

Registered:
Jan 2014
The G402 is relatively new, and so should have a default USB polling rate of 1000 hz. No need to overclock your USB. That is mainly used for older Microsoft mice.

Most people use raw input because it circumvents any potential processing or acceleration that the OS might apply to the mouse signal. I would recommend using it.

The most important thing is to have a stable frame rate. Better to have a frame rate locked at, say, 200 fps than one that varies between 500 and 1000 fps.

Make sure VSYNC is off. It adds noticeable lag to the video signal.

If your "fine pc" has an AMD video card, beware that these cards have performance issues with QW. (I know because I have one). At the very least you will want to disable all standard dynamic lighting in the client (rocket lights, powerup glows, etc) and use simple lighting instead. Rikoll has uploaded configs optimized for AMD cards.
2015-10-28, 13:23
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
sned wrote:
The G402 is relatively new, and so should have a default USB polling rate of 1000 hz. No need to overclock your USB. That is mainly used for older Microsoft mice.

Most people use raw input because it circumvents any potential processing or acceleration that the OS might apply to the mouse signal. I would recommend using it.

The most important thing is to have a stable frame rate. Better to have a frame rate locked at, say, 200 fps than one that varies between 500 and 1000 fps.

Make sure VSYNC is off. It adds noticeable lag to the video signal.

If your "fine pc" has an AMD video card, beware that these cards have performance issues with QW. (I know because I have one). At the very least you will want to disable all standard dynamic lighting in the client (rocket lights, powerup glows, etc) and use simple lighting instead. Rikoll has uploaded configs optimized for AMD cards.


Thx mate. i have a GeForce GTX770 btw, no amd here :-) (the pc is not manly for games actually)


Mind if i point another thing?

on this topic by renzo ( http://www.quakeworld.nu/blog/140/the-theory-of-smooth-qw )
he gets to this relation between monitor hz / usb hz / fps:

Quote:
So what do we make it from here?

A simple formula that goes like this:

monitor Hz <= maxfps <= mouse Hz

While considering the stuff I already mentioned above.

Sync everything and you get smooth experience (125Hz monitor, 125fps, 125Hz mouse). Sync parts of it with very high refreshrates and you'll get smoother experience (150Hz monitor, 500fps, 500Hz mouse). To make it overkill, use very high refreshrates with slight desync (150Hz monitor, 13*77=1001fps, 1000Hz mouse).


EXAMPLES:

Entry level : 150Hz monitor, cl_physfps 77 + cl_maxfps 154, 500Hz mouse
Entry level + : 154Hz monitor, cl_physfps 77 + cl_maxfps 154, 500Hz mouse


In both cases, you can try setting the cl_maxfps to 231, 308, 385, 462, 539, and so on

Improvisation : 150Hz monitor, cl_physfps 77 + cl_maxfps 500, 500Hz mouse
Improvisation + : 150Hz monitor, cl_physfps 77 + cl_maxfps 1001, 1000Hz mouse


In these cases we are trying to maximize the effect of the mouserate by hitting maxfps to it or very close to it. Also notice that even if maxfps 500 isn't X * 77 it still feels really good. 13 * 77 = 1001fps with 1000Hz mouse is even better, if you can spot the differences that is (my guess here on differences would be: placebo).


Is this still usefull / worthy / relevant nowadays?

thx for your time.
2015-10-28, 14:19
News Writer
875 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
What it says at the bottom about 1000hz mouse + 1001fps is definitely the best combination.

If you can't do 1001fps stable then try 770fps or 616fps. With a Geforce GTX 770 you should be able to get 770 or 1001fps solid if you have an Intel CPU... maybe less on AMD.
2015-10-28, 15:22
Member
58 posts

Registered:
Jul 2013
as said g402 can run at 1000hz natively without messing with usb ports
2015-10-28, 16:30
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
dirtbox wrote:
What it says at the bottom about 1000hz mouse + 1001fps is definitely the best combination.

If you can't do 1001fps stable then try 770fps or 616fps. With a Geforce GTX 770 you should be able to get 770 or 1001fps solid if you have an Intel CPU... maybe less on AMD.


Thanks, dirtbox.

yes, thats what im looking for. Gonna try this as soon as i get home.
Specially when my benq arrives.

Is mouse DPI related to this also?
I mean, does it have any kind of math involved or should i go with what feel more confortable? ( g402 can go to 4000 dpi).

(Edited 2015-10-28, 16:43)
2015-10-28, 16:30
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
sae wrote:
as said g402 can run at 1000hz natively without messing with usb ports


yep, using it :-) thanks
2015-10-28, 22:31
Member
202 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
6swift wrote:
Is mouse DPI related to this also?
I mean, does it have any kind of math involved or should i go with what feel more confortable? ( g402 can go to 4000 dpi).

Try to use 2000 or less dpi on the G402. A small amount of smoothing is added to achieve 2080 and above (source)
2015-10-28, 23:28
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
povohat wrote:
6swift wrote:
Is mouse DPI related to this also?
I mean, does it have any kind of math involved or should i go with what feel more confortable? ( g402 can go to 4000 dpi).

Try to use 2000 or less dpi on the G402. A small amount of smoothing is added to achieve 2080 and above (source)



K, thx povo.
2015-10-29, 04:29
News Writer
875 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
povohat wrote:
Try to use 2000 or less dpi on the G402. A small amount of smoothing is added to achieve 2080 and above (source)

By any chance do you know which DPI's are native and which are Interpolated?

On the G400 it is only 800 and 3600dpi which are native and 3600 is problematic. I noticed a huge improvement once i dropped down to 800dpi but I am shopping around for a mouse now and I am considering either G400s or G402
2015-10-29, 12:38
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
Last night i tryed some dpi tests along with the 1001 fps limit + cl_physfps 77.

got it smooth with 1000 dpi and 2000 dpi, any other value i used i could even saw a "horizontal line"
while moving fast and not smooth.

waiting for my benq monitor to arrive so i can fine tune everything, my actual monitor is a wacom cintiq
( which is not a monitor hehe) so i can only get to 75h or 100hz (forced).

Should DPI have any calculations involved to get optimal sync with monitor hz / mouse hz / fps ? or its an independet value?

gonna try 800 dpi and see how it goes also.
2015-10-30, 02:42
Member
202 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
dirtbox wrote:
By any chance do you know which DPI's are native and which are Interpolated?

On the G400 it is only 800 and 3600dpi which are native and 3600 is problematic. I noticed a huge improvement once i dropped down to 800dpi but I am shopping around for a mouse now and I am considering either G400s or G402

The G400 is from the generation of optical mice that were variations on the Avago ADNS-3090 sensor, which doesn't offer many selectable settings at the sensor level. The G400s will be very similar in that regard as it shares the same fundamental architecture.

The G402 uses the more recent AM010 sensor (in conjunction with some kind of gyro/accelerometer which takes over tracking at speeds >~2.7m/s) which is configured to natively support steps of 80 CPI from 240-4000 in this mouse. Straight out of the box without drivers, the selectable steps are 400/800/1600/3200, all of which are generated by the sensor and not scaled by the MCU or through the driver software.
2015-10-31, 18:35
Member
22 posts

Registered:
Apr 2008
povohat wrote:
dirtbox wrote:
By any chance do you know which DPI's are native and which are Interpolated?

On the G400 it is only 800 and 3600dpi which are native and 3600 is problematic. I noticed a huge improvement once i dropped down to 800dpi but I am shopping around for a mouse now and I am considering either G400s or G402

The G400 is from the generation of optical mice that were variations on the Avago ADNS-3090 sensor, which doesn't offer many selectable settings at the sensor level. The G400s will be very similar in that regard as it shares the same fundamental architecture.

The G402 uses the more recent AM010 sensor (in conjunction with some kind of gyro/accelerometer which takes over tracking at speeds >~2.7m/s) which is configured to natively support steps of 80 CPI from 240-4000 in this mouse. Straight out of the box without drivers, the selectable steps are 400/800/1600/3200, all of which are generated by the sensor and not scaled by the MCU or through the driver software.


Amazing performance with 154hz + 77fps phys + 1001fps mouse at 100hz and 1600 dpi.

we have a winner :-)
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