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Salvation Draft League
2012-03-11, 00:34
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Apr 2007
Will late registrations be allowed? If so, how will they be handled?
2012-03-11, 01:57
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Considering how short the season is and that we got so many signups now, I would say no.
Depending on how this season goes we might start another soon after.
ready!
2012-03-11, 19:07
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Dec 2006
I think late registrations are probably a bad idea because it could screw the balance in terms of any changes made to the rosters due to inactivity - i.e. lets say a div0 player signs up late, realistically had they been present in the initial draft then they would have been picked already in order of skill, meaning (hopefully) balanced team. If they register late, then when it comes to replacing inactive players potentially they might replace the 5th best player in a team, meaning that team is now 'overpowered'.

One suggestion I thought I'd throw out there is whether (depending on the calibre of signups i.e. two more high quality captains available and interested) there could be an option to expand the number of teams to 12? Having 2 groups of 6 rather than 5 might work better for scheduling group games and this would expand the total number of players involved to 60 rather than 50. I get the point about wanting to keep things high quality so obviously it would depend on the list of players looks like.
2012-03-11, 19:52
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Mar 2006
The problem is, if we are 4 and one is going to get inactive, we doesnt have a chance to add an active player instead :/
2012-03-11, 19:58
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Defcon 5 wrote:
The problem is, if we are 4 and one is going to get inactive, we doesnt have a chance to add an active player instead :/

I think/hope there will be a very small share of inactive players for this tournament considering the short time span (compared to EQL) and also that it has been emphasized that they are looking for active players to participate in this league.

Only acceptable reason for not playing the games when having signed up and got drafted is if a player would actually die! (should he lose his arms etc i'm sure someone close to him can guide him onto the server)
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2012-03-11, 20:33
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Jan 2006
First of all you will have 5 players and there will be a free agents pool with all the players that where not picked in the first place. So you are free to make a swap with admin guidance.

Just that there wont be any new players added to the free agent pool after season started to prevent what Hangtime described.

Hangtime, thats a good suggestion which we take into consideration, but like you said its mainly depending on the player signups.
2012-03-11, 20:49
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Mar 2006
It is a delicate thing. There could be real reason to replace someone but then you are bypassing the draft which is what makes the league special. Even swaps should be handled with much care. The problem will be this if someone needs a replacement the individual need of that team versus the league. It sucks to have one team be weaker but do you want to upset the balance compared to all other teams? Ideally no replacements or swaps happen.
2012-03-11, 23:57
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Apr 2007
I see two potential problems with the current setup:

1) Unbalanced teams
Each captain get to pick only one player from the pool (in round 1). The other 3 players will be assigned to the team randomly. This will probably result in unbalanced teams.
Let's say a total of 100 players sign up. 30 of those are division 1-2 material, rest div 3 and worse.
With the current picking model, a team can be "lucky" and get 5 div 1 players while an "unlucky" team will consist of 2 div 1 player and 3 total newbies.

This could be solved by letting captains pick from the pool in round 2 as well (maybe even in round 3). Then some randomness will be maintained and teams should get more even.


2) Being benched
The weakest player in every team will most likely get to play least of everyone, if at all.
This should either be something everyone signing up must be prepared for, or you could implement some sort of forcing so that teams cannot constantly bench "their fifth". However, any forcing method is accompanied with other dilemmas.

On a side note - Perhaps make it clear that team binds is mandatory for players signing up, and that a good understanding of team play and map knowledge is highly recommended.
2012-03-12, 00:36
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Quote:
1) Unbalanced teams
Each captain get to pick only one player from the pool (in round 1). The other 3 players will be assigned to the team randomly. This will probably result in unbalanced teams.

Maybe you don't understand how it works then. There is no random selections AT ALL. All captains handpick their players every round. Only random thing is the order the captains pick in, and even then, we made seed groups for captains as well. So you completely missed the concept.

Quote:
2) Being benched
The weakest player in every team will most likely get to play least of everyone, if at all.

I doubt that, and even if it was true so what? If we limit teams to 4 players, those extra players would have no chance to play anyway.
Besides, I think there will be plenty of games to play for the 5th player as well. Sure captain will probably play all maps. But I don't see an issue.

We don't need to make clear that good teamplay is recommende, Captains will automatic pick the best players they see fit, and ofcourse they won't pick some rookie who haven't played before, again comes back to your first point, that you don't understand the concept or mis-read the rules.
ready!
2012-03-12, 00:39
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Jan 2006
Also interesting is that when you pick players it's a gamble, like in football. If you pick a great world class player, but he has track record of lots of injuries, it's a gamble. Same with picking player like razor, great player, star potential... but half the time pl 40+... so do you pick him or a lesser skilled but more stable player?
It's up to the captain to put together best team. And if it doesn't work out, there is always next season. We don't have as long seasons as EQL which might help getting fresh teams on a regular basis.
ready!
2012-03-12, 00:42
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Aug 2011
I think you're misunderstanding the picking phase fed.

1) Unbalanced teams
To clarify: Only the order in which the captains pick will be randomized within each of their seeding group. The picks themselves will not be random.

2) Being benched
This is as much of a problem in real life as it is in QuakeWorld as it is anywhere else. The final word in what team that plays is held by the captain, this however doesn't mean that captains can not agree with eachother to let both of theirs teams fifth pick play. They can even agree to sit the game out themselves. There are workarounds and we trust each team and captain to find a suitable solution to whatever comes up. However, every player signing up should be well aware of the risk of not getting picked and being benched. But as I stated earlier, we put faith in the captains to accomodate their teams as best they can.
carrier has arrived - twitch.tv/carapace_
2012-03-12, 03:13
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Mar 2006
I think what will likely happen is some players achieve better results on certain maps so they will play those maps.
2012-03-12, 22:43
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Dec 2006
fed wrote:
2) Being benched
The weakest player in every team will most likely get to play least of everyone, if at all.
This should either be something everyone signing up must be prepared for

The same applies for any tournament, and if you look at the history of e.g. EQL in most clans during most seasons the 5th best player does get to play some games. I also don't think that the tourney will be taken THAT seriously (compared to EQL with established clans) and given the fact that the schedule is dictated by admins clans will have no choice but to field their 5th best player if somebody else can't make the alloted time.

Furthermore statistically speaking assuming a good range of players signup, the 5th best player shouldn't be THAT much worse than the 4th best player given the way the picking works - it's not like you are going to have 4x div1 player and 1x div3 player. Afterall in theory even the WORST player in the entire tournament should be in the top40 of signups assuming captains pick correctly.

edit: For me one potential issue is the crossover with EQL, given that Sunday has been the primary day for clan QW over the past 10 years I can see some potential conflicts i.e. you want to play with your draft team, but 1-2 players are busy playing EQL games, or practicing prior to them with clanmates in the case of div0 superstars. I'd like to see some sort of policy whereby players who chose to play QW in any form over a scheduled Salvation game (assuming the team doesn't have 4 others available of course) are subject to disciplinary action (first warning and then ejected from the league I guess).
2012-03-13, 01:12
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Jan 2009
HangTime wrote:
edit: For me one potential issue is the crossover with EQL, given that Sunday has been the primary day for clan QW over the past 10 years I can see some potential conflicts i.e. you want to play with your draft team, but 1-2 players are busy playing EQL games, or practicing prior to them with clanmates in the case of div0 superstars. I'd like to see some sort of policy whereby players who chose to play QW in any form over a scheduled Salvation game (assuming the team doesn't have 4 others available of course) are subject to disciplinary action (first warning and then ejected from the league I guess).

It is a problem, however it is a problem created by players themselves being either lazy, refusing to play hard opponents early in the season, wanting to just prac first so they got a better shot at winning against some teams etc.
We always see some whine from players/teams during EQL that season is too short and that it's hard to get a team together or find another team to play against, and sunday is the only day where you can find a game, yet these teams end up playing 5-6 EQL games in the last week of regular season, maybe it wasn't so hard after all?
It's really just bad organizing from teams not making sure to schedule and play their games.

You bring up a fair point but I find it highly unlikely that this scenario (what if a player skips playing the draft game leaving his draft team with 3 players and instead plays an EQL game with his clan) would ever happen, really makes no sense why anyone who signs up would prioritize another qw game that is on a free schedule over a fixed schedule game, but if it does they'll be reprimanded ofcourse.
2012-03-13, 08:34
News Writer
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Jun 2007
The Salvation games are schedueled, thats true. But it would be very problematic if EQL activity suffers from this, especially if players would get warnings or risk being ejected from the draft because they play EQL. What do you think that would do to the activity in EQL? Warnings and ejections shouldnt be given for playing other league games but perhaps pracs or other activities?

The draft league is a good idea and a nice project but it would suck big time if it lead to clans dont find the time to play EQL games, breaking up or going inactive because of it.

Players who prioritize their clan should perhaps think again before signing up or accepting a pick in the draft then if this is how its going to be... I know what I would choose as prio 1.

I know some wont agree with this but be constructive then. Dont wanna see any "blabla you suck anyway so thats not a problem" replies.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 09:23
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Aug 2011
It would be unfortunate Hooraytio, but this is a platform that offers something that the EQL does not, and if people find this to be more rewarding and fun and if EQL activity suffers as a consequence, isn't that just natural progression?

I know the SD (sd1, sd2) players signed up knowing full and well that their activity will be expected in both Salvation aswell as EQL.

The scenario you speak of is a big IF, and what we as a scene stand to gain from this is far greater. We just have to trust the players and community to respect their commitments when signing up to each league.
carrier has arrived - twitch.tv/carapace_
2012-03-13, 10:23
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Im not against it (the tournament) as a concept if this is what the players want.
I am against warnings/ejections etc for taking part in another competition and thus missing a Salvation game.

However, players who do take part in this tournament should take every precaution not to book EQL games on Salvation game days if possible.
But it is not like Salvation has any right of way just because its on a fixed scheduele. Especially not over tournaments that started before Salvation. Like EQL and Thunderdome.

Pracs/mixes/povdmm4/random duels are a different story tho and should not be tolerated.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 10:42
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Aug 2011
With a tight schedule and set times we are saving time for people to do other things while enjoying this awesome draft league. Players who can not participate on set dates have to know that their actions will affect their team, which will affect the tournament and everyone involved in a very negative way. It only stands to reason that their actions have affect on themselves aswell.

Hooraytio wrote:
However, players who do take part in this tournament should take every precaution not to book EQL games on Salvation game days if possible.

Well, yeah? Give the players some credit.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvOV9gkRGfcKdHRzSWoxbkRqenZhTXBfbUphd0g0Zmc&pli=1#gid=0

Hooraytio wrote:
But it is not like Salvation has any right of way just because its on a fixed scheduele. Especially not over tournaments that started before Salvation. Like EQL and Thunderdome.

People have their free will. Who are you to decide what they should or should not do?
carrier has arrived - twitch.tv/carapace_
2012-03-13, 10:57
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Jan 2006
This could just as well be to the disadvantage for the draft league as the teams are smaller and you'll probably feel less commitment to a group of random players than your regular team mates if in a clan. On the other hand, if your clan is hitting rock bottom in EQL, the possibly closer games in the draft league might be more appealing etc.
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2012-03-13, 10:58
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Jun 2007
I think you know how hard it is to book a game. Im not entirely sure it will help with a set scheduele. So no, I wont give the players some credit, just yet. But if it works out I will be the first to admit i was wrong.

Im not telling anyone what to do, outside the framework of EQL and its rules regarding that league, thats why we are not using a fixed scheduele for EQL.

No need to try and pin actions on me thats far from true. A concern is not the same thing as telling you what to do.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 11:34
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Jan 2006
We don't have any intentions to steal players or preventing them to play in other leagues. We are working with a fixed schedule to prevent never ending delays and catch-up weeks so that everyone will lose interest in the end. We want to provide a high quality new concept fun league with thrilling games. People who signup agree with the given schedule, if they are unable to play because their clan has scheduled a EQL game that's fine, its up to the captain to decide if he wants to try to play the game on catch-up day or use the 5th player in his team or simply replace the person who can't play for someone in the free-agent pool.

We want to provide good coverage and a fixed schedule is needed to make that happen. We will not hesitate to give a walkover, even if we prefer not to. Maybe people learn to live up to their appointments/agreements and that it will have consequences if they don't
2012-03-13, 11:36
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Thanks for that reply Murdoc. It cleared any concern I had.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 12:06
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It's not hard at all to book a game due to the reasons of activity which is what we're discussing here. The only reason why it's hard to get a game is because of people not wanting to play us or because they want to prac more. But that's another subject.

Help with a set schedule? It's not supposed to help, it's supposed to be the foundation of the draft league.

Hooraytio wrote:
Im not telling anyone what to do, outside the framework of EQL and its rules regarding that league ...
No need to try and pin actions on me thats far from true. A concern is not the same thing as telling you what to do.

You sure had me fooled.
carrier has arrived - twitch.tv/carapace_
2012-03-13, 13:21
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Jun 2007
1. Activity is the reason it is hard to book a game, teams have a hard time fielding 4 at the same time. The reason its hard for your clan to get an official game is not applicable on the scene as a whole.
2. A set scheduele is the foundation of the draft league sure. But the reason for it must be to get the games played in a timely manner, thus a sort of help to get this done.
3. Just dont go there. What you think I might have done or not isnt what I actually did.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 14:30
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Aug 2011
1. Active teams are active. Inactive teams are inactive. A couple of sunday nights wont change that.
2. My point being that help is too light of a word for the weight we place on people being on time.
3. Then please choose your words more carefully. For example, if you have a concern, say: "I'm concerned about how this will affect the activity of EQL and/or other leagues." and not: "You don't have the right..." The difference is colossal.
carrier has arrived - twitch.tv/carapace_
2012-03-13, 14:34
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Jun 2007
"But it is not like Salvation has any right of way just because its on a fixed scheduele."
This is my opinion, not an attempt at imposing any laws on your existance.

But yeah, resort to nitpicking and always choose the worse alternative when in doubt.
Chosen
2012-03-13, 18:54
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Dec 2006
murdoc wrote:
up to the captain to decide if he wants to try to play the game on catch-up day

If you want to play on catchup day you have to consult the admins at least 2 days in advance, which may not be possible since you didn't know that one of your players was going to be playing prac 2 days in advance.

Quote:
or use the 5th player in his team

Yeah that's why I said assuming the team doesn't have 4 other players available to play (no problem if they do)- what I was getting at was a situation whereby potentially 3 players on the team could suffer (WO given against them) because one player is unavailable (fair enough) and another guy is off practicing for the big EQL game they have that evening (not OK since he should not have signed up for draft league if he wasn't prepared to commit to the scheduled games).

Quote:
or simply replace the person who can't play for someone in the free-agent pool

In terms of replacing players with the free agent pool only 1 swap is allowed per season so that may not always be possible and again if it is short notice it may be quite difficult.

Anyway to be honest I don't see this as being a major issue just throwing it out there for debate (surprised it got so much discussion!) and don't want it to detract from what I see as a good initiative, so as the instigator of the debate on this topic I hearby declare it closed
  27 posts on 1 page  1