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Capture the Flag
2011-02-10, 23:11
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Jan 2006
fog wrote:
No need to get that? Just join server and it will DL necessary stuff in a couple of seconds?

didnt know that.
anyway, the pak contains 24 bit textures and locs, which aren't automatically downloaded from server (correct me if i'm wrong), as well as some stuff i don't remember.
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2011-02-11, 02:49
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Jan 2006
qqshka wrote:
PEKTOPAHKY wrote:
To be honest maps shouldn't be a problem, there're already maps imported from Q3CTF, and as Johnny said episode maps also work.

q3ctf maps??? link plz.

so where is link to q3ctf maps?
<3
2011-02-11, 17:44
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Mar 2007
qqshka, I suppose I was wrong and mixed some non Q3CTF maps with Q3 based maps, it was something like 6 years ago I last played CTF.
2011-02-11, 20:29
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Jan 2006
so we have the mod, what happens now?
2011-02-11, 22:05
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Apr 2006
JohnNy_cz wrote:
so we have the mod, what happens now?

Go play?
2011-02-12, 02:47
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405 posts

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Jan 2006
well, there was ported Spider Crossing from q3, link qwq3wcp9, nice map, hook NOT required.

Same guy (Lexx from Ufa) ported q3tourney2, link qwq3tourney2, nice duel map.
<3
2011-02-12, 05:47
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205 posts

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Feb 2011
Happy to see the interest in CTF! As one of the original players from the 90s and one of the only advocators today, I can answer most of your questions. Come bug me, [DP]BLooD_DoG, on irc if you want my thoughts on the runes and hook (hint: they're awesome!).

As you know from this thread, ult ported ctf (based on pureCTF) to ktx a long time ago, but it's always been disabled by default. A couple of weeks ago I decided to write everything down and make it easy to configure, so I created a couple of packages and this page:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze164u8g/

That should have everything you need to enable ctf on any ktx server in just a couple minutes, including support for CTF on original DM maps. I also have the common ctf maps, locs and colored rune textures up there.

I then went on irc to bug the KTX devs about incorporating everything into KTX by default, and deurk and qqshka have been super responsive and friendly So, I guess if you get a more recent release of KTX everything should work out of the box, but if not you can just look at my page above. One recent checkin to KTX is support for mode-specific ent files in different directories, so that makes some of the settings (and where I drop the .ent files) in my package redundant.

Cheers,
Blood
2011-02-12, 05:54
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Feb 2011
And I should add, the KTX port of CTF has always had the ability to disable hook and runes!
2011-02-12, 14:18
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Jul 2007
Yeah, Spider Crossings ! fog, can you add this map to the server?
2011-02-13, 22:17
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Apr 2006
cloned wrote:
Yeah, Spider Crossings ! fog, can you add this map to the server?

Sure, provide link and ill fix it!
2011-02-14, 09:09
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132 posts

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Dec 2008
This weekend I tryed to make ent-files for some favorite TF maps into CTF (with ktx server).
Simpliest thing is to transform flag entities ftom one type to another.
With respawns I have a problem. Players spawns were expected just for the 1st time. Next time spawn happens just somewhere in the middle of the map.

Last thing - I used just text editor and it is not easy to place items onto map.
2011-02-14, 09:27
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226 posts

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Mar 2007
After playing some 2on2 without hook but with runes I've to really admire those CTF guys who can play CTF with that shit, I think runes are one of the worst things i've ever seen implemented to Quake.
2011-02-14, 10:51
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693 posts

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Jan 2006
The other thing that bothered me about QW CTF is the scoring. In CTF, I think the scoring system should be based solely on number of captures. Frags and other things shouldn't come into it. I think of it like football - the final result is based on goals. Completed passes, tackles, shots and subjective points for style do not count. CTF should be the same
2011-02-14, 13:18
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Mar 2007
Yeah, that's a good point gaz. In QWTF you couldn't see your frags and I think it affected gameplay in a good way, no more mindless fraghunting.
2011-02-14, 13:29
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Apr 2006
Hmm, fragging is giving you a low score compared to capturing the flag?

I'm pretty sure I would want it to count somehow atleast
2011-02-14, 13:34
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Jan 2006
But in theory you could score fewer captures and still win, right? That doesn't seem correct to me.
2011-02-14, 13:48
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Mar 2010
No you shouldn't be able to win with fewer caps if for example Frag = 1 point, Capture = 100 points


But captures could still count on their own. Like in QL CTF they count caps as single numbers. Match can end like 5-2. But they still have points for frags(1), caps(100?), defences (flag returns and helping to kill enemies near your flag carrier) and assists(when you return ur own flag and your mate caps at same time).
2011-02-14, 15:45
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Jan 2006
There's nothing wrong with counting frags or awarding points to individuals for their contributions, I just think that a team game like this should be settled according to the number of captures alone.
2011-02-14, 16:56
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Jan 2006
se-sss wrote:
This weekend I tryed to make ent-files for some favorite TF maps into CTF (with ktx server).
Simpliest thing is to transform flag entities ftom one type to another.
With respawns I have a problem. Players spawns were expected just for the 1st time. Next time spawn happens just somewhere in the middle of the map.

Last thing - I used just text editor and it is not easy to place items onto map.

well, I convert TF flags and spawns to CTF flags and spawns on the fly with KTX now, but it does not solve weapon/armors/ammo/etc.

Regarding text editor and ent, dunno think there should be some tools, at least you (or I) can simply hack KTX to allow place/remove items and then dump .ent file.
<3
2011-02-14, 17:48
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Feb 2006
se-sss wrote:
Last thing - I used just text editor and it is not easy to place items onto map.

Maybe you could use the loc marking tools in ezQuake (or other clients).
2011-02-15, 08:31
Member
132 posts

Registered:
Dec 2008
Quote:
hack KTX to allow place/remove items

that wold be nice
Anyway several iterations required: place items, test real gameplay and back to new iteration.
Quote:
loc marking tools

Never used them shoold take a look.

About scoring system.
In TF typically you see your frags but only flags are counted as a result of match.
The only bad thing in my opinion is that it leads to too many suicides - it easier to kill yourself then to find health/medic/engineer

About hook. Many TF maps are great only with grens. CTF has no grens. For example in CTF on map well6 you will not be able to jump from floor to flag tower. You will have too use slowly moving lift. For such maps hook woold be OK.

I think that TF is much more interesting than ctf because you need to defend flag not only in flagroom but in different locations.
I say this because I have some q3ctf experiense.
Anyway I`d like to play ctf.
2011-02-15, 08:41
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Jan 2006
A partly reinvented CTF mode without hook would probably also need new maps to go along with it. Perhaps use some of the best DM maps out there and just mirror them? :p
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2011-02-15, 08:54
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Jun 2007
What is the main problem with hook anyway? Have only played a little ctf back in the day and hook was what made it different.

But perhaps the evolution of qw made hook annoying/lame?
Chosen
2011-02-15, 10:56
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129 posts

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Mar 2007
In conjunction with 'modern' bunny hopping/air control, it basically makes the game far far far too fast, and in some ways almost undefendable. You can kinda float in grab the flag and float out and the only thing that'll stop you is a direct rocket to a player moving in random directions. Probably depends a bit on map. It also pulls quite quickly, so you can also get an instantaneous burst in speed by grappling to the ground in front of you and starting bunny from there.

When I say 'you', I mean, everyone I've ever tried to stop, can't replicate it myself!

CTF in NQ with grapple is quite nice though despite the ice skating, as NQ is a bit slower without quite as crazy speediness.
2011-02-15, 12:32
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188 posts

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May 2007
I also think the best way is to keep it as close as possible to DM, meaning physics and no hook. I don't know if runes arent better for a CTF environment then ring, penta, quad. Somebody having penta with a RL is one guaranteed capture at least. And let's have some new maps. Why should we use maps that are designed for another mod with a different playstyle (old TF maps) when we still have some mappers in the community? We could give them chance to design a set of TB3 for CTF with modern QW gameplay and gamestyle in mind. Tiddles and Shadow should give it a try.
2011-02-15, 18:34
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PEKTOPAHKY wrote:
After playing some 2on2 without hook but with runes I've to really admire those CTF guys who can play CTF with that shit, I think runes are one of the worst things i've ever seen implemented to Quake.

I think the runes added a nice dimension to the game in Q2 at least. Also noticed you can drop them in QW aswell using "tossrune" according to the wiki. CTF sucks in any case when you're not playing with full teams (5on5).

Another thing i liked with Q2 was that you'd have public servers that just ran for 24/7 and where you could just join the frenzy right away without even having to ready up. Sure it lead to some fked up games sometimes, but seeing as it's probably not as bad getting owned in CTF as in a TDM game (at least you can get a weapon in CTF), it wasn't a big deal and increased the activity i think. But maybe this is possible in QW already?
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2011-02-19, 10:30
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Feb 2011
Quote:
In conjunction with 'modern' bunny hopping/air control, (the hook) basically makes the game far far far too fast, and in some ways almost undefendable.

Disagree! The hook takes getting used to and it definitely makes a very fast game even faster, but the hardcore CTF'ers have been playing with it forever and it adds a lot to the game. Defense is totally possible, especially with proper teamwork. I agree that it takes some getting used to, but think of someone coming from another game and trying QW for the first time. They will say it's far far far too fast, even though we all know that's not true. CTF is a different mod and will feel different to DM'ers who aren't used to it with the hook, that doesn't mean it's flawed

Quote:
After playing some 2on2 without hook but with runes I've to really admire those CTF guys who can play CTF with that shit, I think runes are one of the worst things i've ever seen implemented to Quake.

Hehe, same answer as above for the hook! When you learn how they work and get used to them, the runes add a lot of strategy to the game. If you have strength (give 2x damage, 8x with quad) you should probably play defense, with the resistance rune (take half damage) you should play offense, etc... You can also bring a rune back to a teammate if you're playing set positions, or swap runs with the tossrune command. The worst thing is to lose strength or resistance to the enemy, so you modify your play accordingly. And if you get frustrated because you can't kill an enemy with resistance, just take strength and you're even.

Quote:
The other thing that bothered me about QW CTF is the scoring. In CTF, I think the scoring system should be based solely on number of captures. Frags and other things shouldn't come into it... But in theory you could score fewer captures and still win, right? That doesn't seem correct to me.

That's a fair point, and I think CTF mods for quake2 and up work that way. In reality, it's very rare that a team will win because of more frags but less captures. Consider that a capture gives 15 points to the one who captures, plus 10 points to each of his teammates, plus there will be a few points for assists (killing the enemy flag carrier, returning the flag right before a capture). That means that in 4on4, each capture gives your team about 50 points. That said, I remember a few matches in the 90's where frags made the difference (either due to same number of captures or one less capture). I wouldn't mind if the scoring system changes to just caps, but the way it is now hasn't been a problem in the past. I know we've had to modify strategy mid-game because frags would have made a difference, e.g. if the game is close with little time left, don't just rush in to steal the flag because the other team will get more points for killing you and defending their flag. Kind of like in 2on2 or 4on4, when the clock is running out or enemy has quad and the game is close, you don't just give free kills. So, the current scoring system makes it a little more interesting in my opinion, even if the main goal is to capture the enemy flag

Quote:
This weekend I tryed to make ent-files for some favorite TF maps into CTF (with ktx server). With respawns I have a problem. Players spawns were expected just for the 1st time. Next time spawn happens just somewhere in the middle of the map.

In CTF rules, the first spawn at the start of the game is in your base, but after that you can spawn anywhere. I guess in TF you always spawn in your base?

Some maps you can try for CTF are dm4 (for 2on2) and dm6 or e2m2 for larger games. CTF-specific maps that are popular include ctf8 (or "softbox", a remake), ctf2m3, ctf5, ctf2m1, ctf1, ctf2m8 (basically dm2 on top of another dm2), boom, gym... BTW, none of the official CTF maps (ctf1 through ctf8 and ctf2m1 through ctf2m8) really require the hook, although they're much much easier with it.

Msg me, [DP]BLooD_DoG, on irc if you want to play ctf! I can show you all the tricks and teach you how it's meant to be played Here's a high-ping video from a few years ago. It has confusing skin colors (team = yellow, enemy = red) so it can look strange to see a red player attacking the red base in some clips. You probably won't be able to follow all the strategy that's going on (it looks ffa'ish but believe me it's not), but it should give you an idea of how a real match looks.

ftp://mirror2.mirrors.virginm.net/blueyondergames/blueyondergames/trailers/movies/quakeworld/quakeworld_ctf_in_2005.rar
2011-02-19, 15:04
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284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
BLooD_DoG wrote:
Quote:
In conjunction with 'modern' bunny hopping/air control, (the hook) basically makes the game far far far too fast, and in some ways almost undefendable.

Disagree! The hook takes getting used to and it definitely makes a very fast game even faster, but the hardcore CTF'ers have been playing with it forever and it adds a lot to the game. Defense is totally possible, especially with proper teamwork. I agree that it takes some getting used to, but think of someone coming from another game and trying QW for the first time. They will say it's far far far too fast, even though we all know that's not true. CTF is a different mod and will feel different to DM'ers who aren't used to it with the hook, that doesn't mean it's flawed

Quote:
After playing some 2on2 without hook but with runes I've to really admire those CTF guys who can play CTF with that shit, I think runes are one of the worst things i've ever seen implemented to Quake.

Hehe, same answer as above for the hook! When you learn how they work and get used to them, the runes add a lot of strategy to the game. If you have strength (give 2x damage, 8x with quad) you should probably play defense, with the resistance rune (take half damage) you should play offense, etc... You can also bring a rune back to a teammate if you're playing set positions, or swap runs with the tossrune command. The worst thing is to lose strength or resistance to the enemy, so you modify your play accordingly. And if you get frustrated because you can't kill an enemy with resistance, just take strength and you're even.

Quote:
The other thing that bothered me about QW CTF is the scoring. In CTF, I think the scoring system should be based solely on number of captures. Frags and other things shouldn't come into it... But in theory you could score fewer captures and still win, right? That doesn't seem correct to me.

That's a fair point, and I think CTF mods for quake2 and up work that way. In reality, it's very rare that a team will win because of more frags but less captures. Consider that a capture gives 15 points to the one who captures, plus 10 points to each of his teammates, plus there will be a few points for assists (killing the enemy flag carrier, returning the flag right before a capture). That means that in 4on4, each capture gives your team about 50 points. That said, I remember a few matches in the 90's where frags made the difference (either due to same number of captures or one less capture). I wouldn't mind if the scoring system changes to just caps, but the way it is now hasn't been a problem in the past. I know we've had to modify strategy mid-game because frags would have made a difference, e.g. if the game is close with little time left, don't just rush in to steal the flag because the other team will get more points for killing you and defending their flag. Kind of like in 2on2 or 4on4, when the clock is running out or enemy has quad and the game is close, you don't just give free kills. So, the current scoring system makes it a little more interesting in my opinion, even if the main goal is to capture the enemy flag

Quote:
This weekend I tryed to make ent-files for some favorite TF maps into CTF (with ktx server). With respawns I have a problem. Players spawns were expected just for the 1st time. Next time spawn happens just somewhere in the middle of the map.

In CTF rules, the first spawn at the start of the game is in your base, but after that you can spawn anywhere. I guess in TF you always spawn in your base?

Some maps you can try for CTF are dm4 (for 2on2) and dm6 or e2m2 for larger games. CTF-specific maps that are popular include ctf8 (or "softbox", a remake), ctf2m3, ctf5, ctf2m1, ctf1, ctf2m8 (basically dm2 on top of another dm2), boom, gym... BTW, none of the official CTF maps (ctf1 through ctf8 and ctf2m1 through ctf2m8) really require the hook, although they're much much easier with it.

Msg me, [DP]BLooD_DoG, on irc if you want to play ctf! I can show you all the tricks and teach you how it's meant to be played Here's a high-ping video from a few years ago. It has confusing skin colors (team = yellow, enemy = red) so it can look strange to see a red player attacking the red base in some clips. You probably won't be able to follow all the strategy that's going on (it looks ffa'ish but believe me it's not), but it should give you an idea of how a real match looks.

ftp://mirror2.mirrors.virginm.net/blueyondergames/blueyondergames/trailers/movies/quakeworld/quakeworld_ctf_in_2005.rar

Maybe one of the issues is that hook + runes bring with them too much complexity to the mod. This in turn makes qwctf much less approachable than even qwdm, which by all accounts is already quite hard with regards to advanced movement and powerful weapons. What I'm getting at here is that if we want any kind of revival of CTF and people coming from qwdm, the added complexity should come from the flag and more def + att oriented gaming. That's already quite a lot, but not too much to turn people away.

Of course this wouldn't be _real_ qwctf, but I can live with that (cos it's never been my bread and butter) ;]
2011-02-19, 18:04
Administrator
1024 posts

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Apr 2006
Are you still having discusdions about if runes and the hook should be excluded??

Just turn it off if you want?
2011-02-21, 05:45
Member
205 posts

Registered:
Feb 2011
By the way, I threw up some packages (common maps+locs, colored rune textures) @ http://bit.ly/qwctf. I also updated the wiki @ http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Capture_the_Flag to bring it a little more up to date.
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