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General Discussion
2010-04-30, 05:46
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Renzo wrote:
None of the people who knew asked me to turn the feature off on some of the servers. I was actually asked to enable it on more servers, and so I did. Noone has asked me to turn that feature off even today at this moment, even if "you all" have known about it for what, two days now?

Irrelevant. The problem is not with the feature, but how it was slipped into play without informing players. If you want to discuss the merits of the feature, there is another thread for it.

Quote:
Yes, it was not possible to toggle antilag, the command that is locked, because it affects the old broken version. The sv_antilag path does not have a command at all, only a variable that can be set in the config or using rcon. Whether there is ever going to be one, remains to be decided in the future.

Exactly, so the talk about toggleable settings was completely irrelevant to the discussion.
2010-04-30, 06:28
Member
569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
HangTime wrote:
...

The very fact we're having this type of debate illustrates why some people thought it would be better to have such a thing be put forward in a formal manner by those responsible rather than in this type of exposure scenario than can only lead to bad feeling and finger-pointing..
...

You are required to go with the "exposure scenario". Because otherwise someone would claim that people not noticing is an argument for the feature working great and introducing it.
2010-04-30, 07:23
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Renzo wrote:
The thing that actually annoys me the most, is the fact that people take servers and development for granted. The developers and admins, however, do NOT get paid for it. It's only loss of their time, and possibly money. It's like "ye ye anyone can do that", well, let's see who's really up to that.

Well, let's not paint a picture of the devs and admins as somekind of martyrs. Coding is their hobby, like playing is our hobby. They do it because they like doing it.

And even if they were Jesuses, this shit was still unacceptable.
2010-04-30, 07:32
Member
48 posts

Registered:
Aug 2008
Renzo: I think we all greatly appreciate anyone who put up QW-servers and put time into QW-projects. But it also comes with a bit responsibility and not just handling things as you please.
Features like this can't be force-tested secretly where people play their tournament games. And we cant choose to play somewhere else because we didnt even know it existed in the first place.
It seems like this can be a great feature though so it's a shame it got uncovered this way.
2010-04-30, 12:10
News Writer
283 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
Sure its a shame and hopefully Renzo realises somewhere deep down that a line was crossed in this case, but the hatin' seems a bit disproportionate, though it's only really coming from a few players... Can we just move on now, and decide whether we want antilag to be disabled or enabled by default in future? I do find it interesting that nobody has said "disable it immediately!" or anything. Responses to these last points should prob go in the other thread...
2010-04-30, 12:20
Member
133 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
I understand the hating though. The way this has been handled is simply wrong. I love people who put a lot of time into this game and really appreciate it, but this is not the appropiate way. So it's not strange people are hatin'
Anyways what Razor said is probably the wisest comment in this thread.
2010-04-30, 12:26
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Darff wrote:
but the hatin' seems a bit disproportionate

Perhaps you would feel differently, if in a higher ping game your opponents stunningly incredible, never before seen lg had stopped you from winning the championship that you pracced for months, especially if your opponent was part of the inner circle that knew and you weren't.
2010-04-30, 12:55
News Writer
283 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
blAze wrote:
Perhaps you would feel differently, if in a higher ping game your opponents stunningly incredible, never before seen lg had stopped you from winning the championship that you pracced for months, especially if your opponent was part of the inner circle that knew and you weren't.

I did get knocked out by Bulat ;( But I kid, yes I was shocked to discover the gameplay had been changed without people's knowledge, and I understand that although QW is 'just a game', it doesn't mean a hell of a lot of time and effort can't go into it, which all relies on a trust that the playing field is fair. To lose as a direct result of it as you have described would indeed totally suck, and I hope Renzo sees that pov, sees Razor's point, and we don't have to go through something like this ever again. Would be good to get some kind of reassurace about that.

On the other hand, the bad behaviour has resulted in some positives, as now antilag has been tested fully, bugs have been spotted and corrected, and the 'fixed' implementation may be at a point now which will encourage some US players to re-join the scene, and help level the playing field with Russia, Portugal etc.

Someone said it before, but props to Paradoks who was community-conscious enough to make it public knowledge as soon as he found out, before EQL semis. Is it going to be on or off for the semis I wonder? If most league games have been played with it on, does it make sense to change it now, or to play the games like the others have been played?
2010-04-30, 12:55
Member
5 posts

Registered:
Dec 2009
I'm pretty amazed. Didn't think this kind of shit existed in this scene. The "feature" affects the game-play dramatically, and to keep it a secret as has been is totally unacceptable. If the server says it's off, it should be off (regardless of what has been mentioned on some forum or readme or whatever). If we can't even trust the server we're playing at, it's pretty bad.

Hagge wrote:
Btw, I guess this explains Lacsaps accusations of me using aimbot :-)

No not aimbot, you used wallhack on that dm3.

2010-04-30, 14:16
Administrator
326 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
WHen Renzo says that noone has asked him to take antilag off, is a direct lie. There has been plenty of posts on the forum and the qwnu comment thread from last years debate on same subject, telling him they did NOT want antilag and he should take it away.
ready!
2010-04-30, 15:04
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
ParadokS wrote:
WHen Renzo says that noone has asked him to take antilag off, is a direct lie. There has been plenty of posts on the forum and the qwnu comment thread from last years debate on same subject, telling him they did NOT want antilag and he should take it away.

Wrong.

Do not mistake the two implementations, they are not the same thing, not even close. The other relies on client sending data, the other (this newer one) is purely serverside and requires nothing from the client.

The KTX implementation (which required modified client) was disabled and marked for removal in the project very soon after the introduction, it was a no go. At that point the servers didn't allow it to be turned on any longer, for the fact it had issues.

During the time this serverside implementation has been enabled, noone of the people who knew about it asked me to turn it off. Like I already replied above, even now that (almost) everyone knows about it, still nothing. I have even replied earlier, that if you don't want this enabled, then say so.
Servers: Troopers
2010-04-30, 15:10
Administrator
326 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
How can they ask you to turn it off, when you already told them you had implemented it to do a blind test? Would turning it off, not defeat the purpose of having the test in the first place?
Even if they didn't like the feature, they knew it was YOUR show... your decision... All they were privileged too was the knowledge of what was going on. That you were running the test and decided how long it should go on.

And when you say noone has asked you to turn off antilag now, you ignore the people that asked you, because now you just installed a NEW version, and noone specifically asked you to turn THAT version off, so then you just say "well noone said anything.. so that means you all approve!". Most people dont even know what version does what..
They are not all involved in development stuff, they just play and try to have fun.
ready!
2010-04-30, 15:19
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Have you not read anything I have said to you here, or in irc? I already told you, it was enabled on half the servers (or ports) so that there would be a difference. It has been enabled on all ports for few weeks, maybe a month now. If people came to me asking if anything is going on, I told them about the feature and asked them to test it some more and report back to me.

Currently there is no difference between any of the ports running, and for testing purposes the feature could be disabled on some of them. Why isn't anyone asking even that? Do you want to have non-antilagged ports running, or do you want to have all the ports running antilag?
Servers: Troopers
2010-04-30, 15:59
Administrator
326 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
So if antilag is enabled on say the first 2 ports, that means pretty much 95% of all games have been played on those, and none on the other port.. and if you have, as you said, alternated and turned antilag on/off, how can there be a proper test then?

With this feature, especially for higher pinged players, it is ESSENTIAL that they know if the feature is even turned on, which version it was and what exactly it does, to adapt and actually TEST IT.
This is not a feature u can just turn on / off at will and except good testing results.

The effects are soo severe, and visually invisible that it's just one big mess. So hard to expect ppl to give good testresults. At least without antilag the beam on the screen is the real deal or as close to as possible.. with antilag now you have an invisible beam also and what feels like out-of-sync-knockback. I suggested to Medar that the client side should do some kind of graphics sync so the beam actually displayed as the simulated ping.

But as it is now, the concept looks good on paper, the arguments for it sounds good.. but it's juuuust not there yet. And I can't see why we should use something that isn't working proper, even if it is better than what we have. Just because it's likely to be changing over and over for the rest of the year due to tweaks and trial/error.

So now you have official request, turn it OFF.. EVERYWHERE. Let it be electable for TESTING. If that makes it harder for developers to get overall accptance faster, so be it.
If you think YOU spend alot of time for free to make lives better for QW players, per YOUR vision on how things should be, think about how many hours the players on the servers are spending actually playing, practicing under very specific conditions. And you just come in and mess it up for everyone changing things around on a whim. The road to... somewhere bad, is paved with good intentions.
ready!
2010-04-30, 16:33
Member
48 posts

Registered:
Aug 2008
You keep saying that no-one that knew about it asked you to turn it off and therefor it was right decision to leave it there or what? May I ask then how many did actually knew about it? It was WAY to few for that argument to be valid. And yes people arn't asking you now either but maybe that's because they think it's a good feature? That wasn't really the point, the point is still that it wasnt justified to keep it a secret.
2010-04-30, 16:36
Member
100 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
pls turn it off, i really want my old shaft back.
2010-04-30, 17:19
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
FSrazor wrote:
You keep saying that no-one that knew about it asked you to turn it off and therefor it was right decision to leave it there or what?

No. I am saying if someone wants (or wanted back then) to have it disabled, I will/would have disabled it on certain amount of ports, let's say WG1-2 for example. I would have not (and will not) denied the request, considering the feature itself.

FSrazor wrote:
May I ask then how many did actually knew about it? It was WAY to few for that argument to be valid. And yes people arn't asking you now either but maybe that's because they think it's a good feature? That wasn't really the point, the point is still that it wasnt justified to keep it a secret.

I'd say around 15 people. Not counting russians or people who just knew/heard from others and said nothing. If you want some sort of details, maybe come ask in person.


EDIT2:
Quote:
20:58 <]SR[ParadokS> i think the new antilag fix should be installed on all and enabled on all and run an open test maybe have the last port of each server disabled for tournament play if ppl so desire

There's no toggle for it still, as Qqshka and Medar disagree with having it. So if you are going to play a tournament game on wargamez, you need to inform me first if you want to have antilag disabled.
Servers: Troopers
2010-04-30, 21:01
Member
110 posts

Registered:
Mar 2010
disable it on all servers except for one testserver.

pretty disgusting to judge what's needed and then just do it.

make quake bling bling all you want but don't fuck with the gameplay. the players hold the vote.
2010-05-01, 19:10
Moderator
383 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
It is funny to read a lot of comments like: "I think this feature is bad. I played on some ru/us/uk server and have too good LG for my ping." Personally, I didn't know that this feature was enabled during all eql season, but probably it was the reason why ru teams was so active this season. I like the gameplay (except of some moments on e1m2 when I died too fast, when an opponent has SNG). And if this feature will help to restore NA-US gamescene, come on, I vote for this feature by both hands. May be more RU-PL 4on4 matches now?
With best wishes, B1aze.
2010-05-01, 19:22
Member
383 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Funny you should say that, B1aze! Antilag on projectiles like nails has been disabled. It really didn't work very well, either in theory or in practice, especially when it came to dodging things like slow-moving grenades, so no more random sng owning to worry about.
2010-05-01, 22:25
Member
247 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
turn
it
off
that's
it
2010-05-01, 23:34
Member
100 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Who are thoose ppls who knew about the buggy antilag 1, and they still played their officials on antilag 1 servers(without their opponent awareness of antilag on)?
2010-05-02, 01:51
Member
370 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
I just tried it with Lithium on a euro server that had anti lag. My ping was 150.

It was kinda weird, but eventually I started to like it. Because the LG and SSG & SG were hitting when I was aiming at my opponent. I would really like to see this on a NA server to try it with 50 ping or whatever.

Renzo, is there a compiled win32 version with anti lag so I can try it on my home server with a few local buddies?
2010-05-02, 12:20
Member
188 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
Renzo wrote:
FSrazor wrote:
May I ask then how many did actually knew about it? It was WAY to few for that argument to be valid. And yes people arn't asking you now either but maybe that's because they think it's a good feature? That wasn't really the point, the point is still that it wasnt justified to keep it a secret.

I'd say around 15 people. Not counting russians or people who just knew/heard from others and said nothing. If you want some sort of details, maybe come ask in person.

Translation: I'll secretly add and enable whatever gameplay changing 'feature' I'd like, and I'll only tell my buddies about it, giving us an advantage. The only way for you to find out is to ask me every day if I've done it yet and then hope I won't lie about it.
2010-05-02, 15:48
Administrator
1024 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
bigfoot wrote:
Renzo wrote:
FSrazor wrote:
May I ask then how many did actually knew about it? It was WAY to few for that argument to be valid. And yes people arn't asking you now either but maybe that's because they think it's a good feature? That wasn't really the point, the point is still that it wasnt justified to keep it a secret.

I'd say around 15 people. Not counting russians or people who just knew/heard from others and said nothing. If you want some sort of details, maybe come ask in person.

Translation: I'll secretly add and enable whatever gameplay changing 'feature' I'd like, and I'll only tell my buddies about it, giving us an advantage. The only way for you to find out is to ask me every day if I've done it yet and then hope I won't lie about it.

Don't think we can expect an "Sorry, I realise it was a big mistake, it won't happen again."
2010-05-02, 23:36
Administrator
380 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
Willgurht wrote:
HangTime wrote:
...

The very fact we're having this type of debate illustrates why some people thought it would be better to have such a thing be put forward in a formal manner by those responsible rather than in this type of exposure scenario than can only lead to bad feeling and finger-pointing..
...

You are required to go with the "exposure scenario". Because otherwise someone would claim that people not noticing is an argument for the feature working great and introducing it.

Why does that matter? Would anyone who uses that as an argument get taken seriously anyway? The whole "nobody noticed so it must be working great" argument is a bit moot in games as complex as 4on4 QW, you could probably make plenty of arbitrary changes that wouldn't get noticed by many (e.g. make nails move 1ups faster or something), it doesn't really have much bearing on the merits of the actual change. Even something relatively serious like antilag we only noticed from povdmm4, and chances are most scandinavians were mostly only playing on antilag servers like wargamez, pangela, intarweb etc so they didn't really have a point of comparison. It's probably no coincidence that several of the players who knew or at least had an inkling about this are those from outside CET timezone.

Should I have bitten my tongue until the end of the season? In hindsight, no, probably not. I just don't like the suggestion (from some individuals, not everyone) that it was a deliberate ploy to cheat on my part.
2010-05-04, 11:40
Member
192 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Haha, i start to enjoy this drama!! I really like players who are now pissed because they feel overgone. Iam a players, but when I think in an developers view I can understand to add this feature secretly. Its the only way you get objectiveness in any way. I can remember a story with DICE ( the developer of the battlefield series ) who wrote in a changelog that they rebalanced a certan weapon. After the patch was release to the community, flaming started in the forums. Things like: "it feels perfectly fine now, nice patch" And "this absolutly ruined the game" everything was written.
In fact, DICE didnt changed anything.
Thats a pretty good example for sometimes not telling players what they changed, but let them feel. Thats much more objective, because if someone really get killed after they strafted around the corner, because this antilag feature was on all the times, and get consciousness about that, he would immediately talk to delevopers or the forum to ask if this feature was really off. Noone did that because they feel it was alright, although the feature was on.
Ok maybe not release this feature at tournament time, although its the best way to see if anything completly ruin the game. Bulat and milton still kickes asses, slackers and tvs are still owning tdm.
So nothing has ruined the game that much. In fact, for people living outside cet this feature comes handy, because they play with more equal chances.
2010-05-04, 11:54
Member
459 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Nice input, defcon. Sneaky developers...

I also feel the same, beginning to be quite apathetic about it all and no matter how this turns out it wont affect me playing the game at all. The same players are dominating, the same teams are dominating. Its main feature is that it makes the game more equal regardless of ms, which makes me slightly pro antilag in tourneys and such.
2010-05-04, 12:07
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Defcon 5 wrote:
Thats much more objective, because if someone really get killed after they strafted around the corner, because this antilag feature was on all the times, and get consciousness about that, he would immediately talk to delevopers or the forum to ask if this feature was really off.

Except that no one would know why something weird happened. Apparently A LOT of people had noticed something strange, but DIDN'T talk to developers. Me included. I just concluded that my opponent must be cheating, but didn't say anything outside our private channel.
2010-05-04, 12:39
Member
1435 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I noticed in this thread complains like "I was curious why that hpb has so good lg", but did anyone really notice being hit behind corner or any other hypothetical situation that was brought up in here?
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