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General Discussion
2010-04-28, 11:58
Member
462 posts

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Jan 2006
I think it's unfair advantage if you can hit opponents in places where they aren't. I my opinion you should hit if and only if you shoot at cordinates (x,y) at time t, and opponent is at coordinates (x,y) at time t. If opponent was at different coordinates, you did not hit. Simple.
2010-04-28, 12:08
Member
130 posts

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Jan 2006
blAze wrote:
I think it's unfair advantage if you can hit opponents in places where they aren't.

Cheating is when you get an unfair advantage over your opponent. This simply won't happen with antilag.

For example if I can see through water and no-one else can, then I'm cheating. If everyone can see through the water, then it's just normal (all QuakeLive players aren't cheaters).

If you are talking about a case like 13 ms vs. 120 ms where antilag is not very useful to you, but is useful to your opponent. Then note that you still have a lot better playing conditions than him and it's you who holds the advantage, just like you do without antilag too.

I'll answer the 2nd part of your post in the other thread.
2010-04-28, 13:00
Member
485 posts

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Feb 2006
The c-word might be fitting when you know the server has antilag enabled and you know that your opponent doesn't know.

There's an other c-word for server and league admins who let this go on. >
2010-04-28, 13:09
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Jan 2006
Kalma wrote:
The c-word might be fitting when you know the server has antilag enabled and you know that your opponent doesn't know.

There's an other c-word for server and league admins who let this go on. >

Absolutely there is: "charlatans"!
2010-04-28, 13:28
Member
198 posts

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Oct 2006
Eh, absolutely nothing changes, ezquake and mvdsv developers are still self righteous and they know best what's good for you. Not long ago everybody's ping was 2-3x higher than it is now. The worldwide networks are going in the right direction. This little "feature" is bringing the community into one single direction too - "did my opponent win because of some server alghoritms now, making it easier for hpb?".

Let me remind you, when shit like cl_idrive was added the mighty developers claimed "WE KNOW BEST! YOU ARE AN IDIOT! This is going to be disabled in smackdown". People hardly ever check for ruleset in leagues, not to mention everyday gaming. It is also awkward to verify others' settings, since you knew your opponents and played together for years. As a matter of fact, around half the players from all divs use it now. Hate to say I told you so.

Same shit now. I completely agree with blaze. Whatever happened to fuh's old saying "never change the gameplay"? The regular reply is "but we want to make the game easier for newcomers" - they wouldn't be revising a 14 year old game if they wanted something easy for fucks sake.

I'm not whining, everything has a beginning and an end. QW was great, obviously after nearly molded into q3 it is going to die for similar reasons (cl_predict) as q3 was killed.

Have a nice day.
2010-04-28, 13:38
Member
130 posts

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Jan 2006
Faustov wrote:
Eh, absolutely nothing changes, ezquake and mvdsv developers are still self righteous and they know best what's good for you. Not long ago everybody's ping was 2-3x higher than it is now. The worldwide networks are going in the right direction. This little "feature" is bringing the community into one single direction too - "did my opponent win because of some server alghoritms now, making it easier for hpb?".

If you have some reason why antilag would give an advantage to the higher pinging player over a lower pinging player I would love to hear it on the other thread.

It's not about making it easier for new players. It's not about giving anyone an advantage. It's about providing the best possible QW gameplay experience given the pings that the players have.
2010-04-28, 13:44
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Jan 2006
Faustov maybe try to calm down and realize some facts first. Like that this was initiative of one server admin. No server developer nor client developer (hah) was involved anyhow. Not to mention nothing is easier for hpb than for other players.
With cl_idrive you got it all mixed. You are wrong there on multiple levels, I'm not even going to comment on that.
2010-04-28, 13:45
Member
693 posts

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Jan 2006
I'd like to suggest that this thread is locked and all discussion is continued in the other one... it doesn't make sense to have two sets of discussion.
2010-04-28, 13:48
Member
130 posts

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Jan 2006
gaz wrote:
I'd like to suggest that this thread is locked and all discussion is continued in the other one... it doesn't make sense to have two sets of discussion.

It makes perfect sense to me. There are concerns about the antilag feature itself and there are concerns about how it was introduced to the servers. These don't really have much to do with each other.
2010-04-28, 13:50
Administrator
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Feb 2006
Kalma wrote:
There's an other c-word for server and league admins who let this go on. >

I like how you managed to get "league admins" added to your list of people to blame, when it's clear that no league admins knew this was enabled when the current seasons were launched.
2010-04-28, 14:05
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
qw was perfectly playable with qwcl+qizmo

mqwcl, fuhquake and ezquake (and others) are nontheless fantastic projects and have also helped our community in a lot of ways.
Some things, just as other products, you dont know you need them until you see the commercial.

The developers are doing a great job but at some point you must stop and think: Am I changing the game too much?

Question is: Is the game changed too much?
Chosen
2010-04-28, 14:09
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130 posts

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Jan 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
Question is: Is the game changed too much?

(Speaking for myself, not Renzo or qsshka or anyone of course)

The goal of the antilag feature is not to change the game in anyway. When both players have low ping the game should remain the same. When higher pings are involved the goal is to bring the game closer to what a low ping game is like, while still not giving the high pinging players an advantage over the low pinging ones.
2010-04-28, 14:26
Member
61 posts

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Jan 2006
First Id like to say that this is a good idea and will probably be good in future when its done and bug free.
For a long time I have been wondering how the hell time and bulat gets 45% lg with 80ms ping. -And I know that my lg aim is really bad...
This was a new feature for me, I just knew that there is one but never tried it. So it was a time to do some testing...

I played about 10 rounds of pov with Xenic... first 13ms then 51ms then 13 and so on.
With 13ms I had 36-38% lg in every round and with 51ms I had 41-43% lg... not a single time bellow 41
Also played one round vs arne when both had 51ms. I had 43% lg and arne 47%. After that I got 37% again with 13ms. It seems like I have over 5% better lg with 51ms than 13ms... and don't know why But it just feels so much easier like you have more reaction time. And usually enemy dies a lot sooner than you think.

I also tried 65ms and it was as good as 51ms. When pings even more higher I noticed that you cant see any blood even you are hitting like 40% and my enemy said that he saw my lg going past of him and he was still loosing health.

However I think lg is too powerfull vs rl nowadays and this does it even more. How you can do some high ping direct hits with rl? so why not to add this feature for rl too...
It was kind of a bad move to keep this "secrect" and start to use it in official games even its not done yet.

Hope there will be a solution soon or I have to do a macro that increases ping when using shaft or sg button ;D


ps. and the demos you can find on quakeworld.fi servers if you don't belief me.
2010-04-28, 14:30
Moderator
1329 posts

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Apr 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
The developers are doing a great job but at some point you must stop and think: Am I changing the game too much?

Question is: Is the game changed too much?

This reply is not for antilag discussion, but do you have any idea how much the game has changed by only fixing obvious and horrible bugs? I can make a list for you, just to show some stuff I remember without taking a look at the repositary:

- Discharge splash direction it upwards, meaning you can do "discharge jump" with enough health
- You can no longer bore to dead (flying) bodies or body parts (I don't agree with this one)
- There was a bug in KTX that made jumping from diagonal hills/etc different that it was on KTPro, fixed ages ago but it was there for an eternity.
- Telefragging was horribly broken, the telefrag area was bigger than your model and the effect lasted for almost 100ms (you could run to a telesplash and die AFTER teleporting happened)
- Collision detection was bugged, you could shoot pines through certain areas (dm2 uprl tele for example) or your speed could basically stop if you were wallhugging in certain places (dm4 quad hole, coming out from there and many other places)
- Quaded rocket carried quad effect for a while even if the quaded player was killed

And I'm sure there are more of these during the years of QW-development. These "bugfixes" alone make a significant impact on how QW behaves, should they have not been fixed? Then again, that is only bugfixing, the features part on all projects (serverside and clientside) affect the game even more, if you take "modifying what you see" and "how your client behaves" into account.
Servers: Troopers
2010-04-28, 14:55
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Nov 2008
I still think the best you can do with this feature is implement it in a way that requires every single vote of the players inside the server to agree in order to enable it for a game. And just wanna point out some suff, knowing that is enabled or not gives you an advantage, for example if you are using fakeshaft 0 with 65ms, you'll hit less than if you use fakeshaft 1. Also i remember playing Maga with antilag, but he wasn't aware. First we played 12ms vs 65ms, he got around 45%lg, then he did cl_delay_packet and hardly got 35%, which in fact the shaft was working exactly in the same way, but he was using it different, and i think also fakeshaft afected. The point is, everyone must know, or nobody must know this. If some players know it and some other don't, it makes it unfair.

Bulat was probably praccing with high-ping shaft, while Ave wasn't. Either if Bulat knew about antilag or not, he was praccing it. Looked so unfair. If both players knew about antilag, or have pracced with it the same time it would be fair.

Edit: If i were Avenger, i will strongly ask for a remach
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2010-04-28, 14:58
Member
485 posts

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Feb 2006
Zalon wrote:
Kalma wrote:
There's an other c-word for server and league admins who let this go on. >

I like how you managed to get "league admins" added to your list of people to blame, when it's clear that no league admins knew this was enabled when the current seasons were launched.

You can't function after launch? At least say something, take a stance, instead of letting a potentially unfair situation occur.

EQL has ping and server rules with no mention of this setting. For example can a team refuse to play with antilag enabled?
2010-04-28, 15:08
Member
459 posts

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Mar 2008
Kalma wrote:
EQL has ping and server rules with no mention of this setting. For example can a team refuse to play with antilag enabled?

Well it doesn't mention anything about antilag at all, but i guess the "- Choice of server should be suitable for both teams" can be used to deny playing on a antilag server and then have an admin to decide what server the game should be played on if the teams can't decide.
2010-04-28, 15:17
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198 posts

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Oct 2006
Medar wrote:
If you have some reason why antilag would give an advantage to the higher pinging player over a lower pinging player I would love to hear it on the other thread.
It's not about making it easier for new players. It's not about giving anyone an advantage. It's about providing the best possible QW gameplay experience given the pings that the players have.

Mr Medar, I value your point of view, however I'm just against any change. I haven't been playing QW since the beginning, but when I started, changing it was considered blasphemy - and this is my point. It's not about making it easier or harder for anyone (although I take it your main goal is to make it more fair for hpb - am I mistaken?). It is just changing the way it was so far. This change - might be useless as global networks are getting faster and faster - but it will definitely invoke a lot of discussion. Do we need this discussion? Is it worth having all this "drama"? Over what improvement?


Johnny_cz: what you wrote here is exactly what you have been writing to me on #ezQuake. I gave you a bunch of facts - are you going to deny the following:

1. Rulesets had just basic differences at first. Russians developing ezquake have added various qw_made_easier features to ruleset default, blocking them in smackdown. Now to have a regular qw game, one has to verify rulesets or he can play with a significant disadvantage - therefore ruleset verification is required for league games.

2. Ruleset checks make much more sense now before league games therefore many games are delayed due to ensuring all players got smackdown set

3. Many known players (reppie for example) use your qw_made_easier settings and go unchecked, because no one suspects.

If you deny these, you're ignorant ;/
2010-04-28, 15:28
Member
39 posts

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Feb 2009
time! wrote:
I still think the best you can do with this feature is implement it in a way that requires every single vote of the players inside the server to agree in order to enable it for a game.

I disagree. Either enable it on every server ALWAYS or dont use the feature at all. I dont want to change playstyle because "ah antilag is off and i have 51ms, fuck lg".
If it's toggleable like it is now, just make it clear to the players if it's off or not.
2010-04-28, 15:43
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Jan 2006
Faustov wrote:
Mr Medar, I value your point of view, however I'm just against any change. I haven't been playing QW since the beginning, but when I started, changing it was considered blasphemy - and this is my point. It's not about making it easier or harder for anyone (although I take it your main goal is to make it more fair for hpb - am I mistaken?). It is just changing the way it was so far.

The idea is NOT to change anything at all with low pings.

The only thing that antilag tries to do, is make playing with high ping less horrible. QW netcode was written 1998 and before, I don't see any reason we should be condemned to an eternity of suffering just because of that.

Infact antilag tries to make playing with high ping more similar to playing with low ping, so make the came more uniform not more different.

Faustov wrote:
This change - might be useless as global networks are getting faster and faster - but it will definitely invoke a lot of discussion. Do we need this discussion? Is it worth having all this "drama"? Over what improvement?

The improvement is significant. And unless you have some wormhole-cables in your closet ping will always be an issue in network games.
2010-04-28, 16:31
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198 posts

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Oct 2006
Medar wrote:
Faustov wrote:
This change - might be useless as global networks are getting faster and faster - but it will definitely invoke a lot of discussion. Do we need this discussion? Is it worth having all this "drama"? Over what improvement?

The improvement is significant. And unless you have some wormhole-cables in your closet ping will always be an issue in network games.

If that's how you put it then I can't have anything against, however QW as it is, has been perfectly playable in cases of low and average ping. I've read a couple of posts in all 3 threads about it, but failed to find: what is the trigger point for this feature? ping 100+?
2010-04-28, 16:38
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Jan 2006
Faustov wrote:
what is the trigger point for this feature? ping 100+?

There is no trigger point, or to put it another way it makes aiming instant hit weapons work like on 13 ms on all pings.
2010-04-28, 17:26
Member
198 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
So just as others described, it scales freely? Does it make more sense to add upper and lower limits for the scaling? Say, it kicks in only in the range of 40ms to 200ms? This would probably prevent future abuse by faking ping reply in order to get an instant hit?
2010-04-28, 17:35
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Jan 2006
Faustov wrote:
So just as others described, it scales freely? Does it make more sense to add upper and lower limits for the scaling? Say, it kicks in only in the range of 40ms to 200ms? This would probably prevent future abuse by faking ping reply in order to get an instant hit?

It certainly won't make sense to add a lower ping limit.

As for the upper ping limit there could possible be some reasons for that, but what you are saying is not an issue. It's always trivial to cheat in/build cheats for QW with or without antilag.
2010-04-28, 20:26
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55 posts

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Jan 2009
It looks like resistance is futile. QuakeWorld is now officially dead. Say hi to ezRenzoWorld
2010-04-28, 21:33
Member
368 posts

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Dec 2006
The main problem I have with this situation was the way it was handled - keeping it a secret that players gradually found out. I've been playing with fakeshaft for the past couple of months because I realised that it would give me an advantage with antilag, other players that didn't know probably had it disabled or set to a lower value.

One thing's for certain though, if antilag gets turned off from wargamez/intarweb I'll probably be much less happy giving away ping advantage than we have been this season.
2010-04-28, 21:54
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Jan 2006
Isn't it a bit contradicing that you have a problem with keeping this a secret, yet you have known for months? Unless I misunderstood what you are saying. I'm first and foremost disappointed how many people seem to have gladly taken the advantage of this situation without saying anything in public. I guess it's like legal cheating because you can't really be accused of anything and you can always say "I had no idea".
2010-04-28, 22:06
Member
368 posts

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Dec 2006
Yes, it's absolutely a contradiction. "Fair is for losers" (c) blAze

We (a group of players) discussed it and agreed that it would be better for it to be officially announced by the people concerned, it would come out better for the scene if say it was announced by Renzo than if he was 'exposed'. I took a similar approach with Strife when I figured out EQs "autoskin" scripts a few years ago, I told him to make it freely available to all rather than just writing some "OMG CHEATZ!!" post on a forum. So he did. I never personally discussed antilag with any server admins though.

The problem with this antilag 'trial' is that it went on too long without it being announced. People like Medar understand it far better from a technical perspective than me, in any case, and I must confess I never realised it was enabled until someone told me it seemed dodgy and we did some testing. I really didn't get how Squeeze was hitting 35%+ sg on 140ms but I knew he was a 'good' player and got used to the ping.
2010-04-28, 22:11
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Jan 2006
Better for the scene? You must be joking. I guess you meant better for Renzo. Ironic that out of all these players ParadokS was the only one honest enough to make this public knowledge.

It's actually (c) from Sons of Anarchy.
2010-04-28, 22:16
Administrator
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Feb 2006
Faustov wrote:
Do we need this discussion? Is it worth having all this "drama"?

QW can never get too much drama
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