User panel stuff on forum
  52 posts on 2 pages  First page12Last page
General Discussion
2010-02-04, 17:19
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Hey there.

Someone just approached me and asked me what I thought about a change in the way we drop maps in (duel) tournaments. The suggestion was that each player drops a map BEFORE the first map is played. At first this may sound like a strange system, but it does have its' upsides, I believe:

All in all, I think it is fair to say that a true duel champ should be good on all (regularly) played maps, rather than just one, two or three. Some players are very good on ONE map exclusively, and tend to get far in duel tournaments nevertheless. This is because they play their one very good map at the start and practically enter the encounter with a 1-0 lead. Now for that player to win a round in a tourney, all he needs is to do okay on one other map. This player is likely to beat someone who is good on all 5 maps, but not VERY good on ONE specific map. To me, in a way, this seems kinda wrong. Also, it would might result in a greater variation of maps being played.

But I'm sure there's downsides to this system too. And this is where you come in: Please make use of the poll, discuss, and also feel free to comment/debate other things/changes you'd like to see in a future duel tourney!
_________________________________________________________
Save a cow, crucify a christian!
2010-02-04, 18:06
Member
26 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
This someones name isnt by any chance Karsten, who hates one particular map *cough* ztndm3 *cough*, and who came up with this system just so he will never again have to play it in a tournament?
2010-02-04, 18:08
Member
381 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Generally I'd be for this, but there are two problems of varying severity.

1) All those older than oldschool dm4 or dm6 specialists would not sign up/whine so hard that your head would implode as soon as someone like locust gets knocked out by some div3 player because he only has dm4 and aerowalk, making this essentially kenyawhine.

2) This would mean dm2 being the forced decider in many matches due to few people specialising in it and few people being especially bad at it. This random-ass cs piece of shit map being the decider in the majority of tournament games can only be a disgustingly bad thing for competition. I would think that this is going to be the most significant problem from both a player's and spectator's point of view. My solution (predictably) is to toss it and put in a decent duel map like skull or doomed, but obviously that brings its own problems.
2010-02-04, 18:09
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
negative.
_________________________________________________________
Save a cow, crucify a christian!
2010-02-04, 18:12
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Well, for one this would drop the highest level of gameplay straight out before the game is even played. Instead of masterful playing, we would only see decent/ok level gameplay. I don't see the problem in the traditional bo3. But then, I don't play or spec duels.
2010-02-04, 18:29
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Forced dropping of dm2 happens (for me) even in old system, just in later stage.
Main argument for me is that adrenalin is flowing through my body in insane amounts after 1-1 and it's frustrating plus annoying to have to "think" about which map to choose/drop after that. For me it feels so much better when everything is already settled and the only thing I have to think about for 30 minutes is the actual game, not choosing of maps - how good am I there? Was my shaft now ok? What about my opponent? Uh, oh, phew...
Therefore my answer is yes.
2010-02-04, 18:50
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
I like this idea, but mainly because I wouldn't need to play aero at all. Guess other people whos voting for this also feels the same, but perhaps about another map.
2010-02-04, 18:51
Member
362 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
Current system is fine but I take the point above about not wanting to have to choose at 1-1 (this is especially true in 4on4, I've even witnessed internal clan arguments go on because of it!). This could be resolved by agreeing the maps before you start though i.e:

-Both players declare homemap
-Both players then toss their choice of map if score is 1-1
-3 map pool is therefore set before you start

Only downside I suppose is if one player starts to lag or something unexpected happens, this might influence what map you would prefer to toss (personally I find aerowalk tough on high ping, but YMMV)
2010-02-04, 19:54
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
As I see it both systems have a set of pros and cons.

The normal QW system has one big thing going for it, its fair.
The player that picks first is at a disadvantage as he can by accident choose his opponent's best map thus letting his opponent play his two best maps. However he gets this back (if) once they are to decide the third map by dropping last. By dropping last he gets two maps from which he can choose the one he plays best on to be the decider making the current system in QW fair.

There are however some things that are not so good about this system.
It doesn't reward being a good overall player and the winner is rarely the one that is best overall as he will have dropped his worst map and only needed to win on his three best maps through out the tournament.
It also doesn't make for exciting games, by dropping first you make sure the three maps on which those players are as equal as possible gets played instead of having the two first maps being one sided with a close decider.

Dropping first basically has the opposite pros and cons.
The pros are that you get an exciting tournament, as the players are forced to play those maps on which they are the most equal.
You also make sure the winner is the best overall player as he can not go through the tournament only winning his 3 best maps over and over.

The cons are that its not fair. Dropping first means you can by accident drop your opponents worst map thus allow him to drop his second worst map and you never get anything back for this as the three maps to be played are already decided.
A small but to be noticed con is that you very rarely get to see a player play his best map, in fact they almost only get to play their best map during the finals when the match is BO5. On the other hand those maps are usually very one-sided and boring.

The way I see it is that you should choose system after what you want.
Is the tournament supposed to determine the best overall player in the world? Are the matches supposed to be spectated by a lot of people? Is the tournament supposed to bring attention and perhaps new players to the game? If you answer yes on any of these then you should drop first.

But if instead the tournament is supposed to be as fair as possible, or as fun as possible for the players then you should go with the current system we use in QW.
2010-02-04, 20:50
Administrator
856 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
some fresh thinking in here... but zapp's last last sentence "as fun as possible for the players" made up my mind; I vote no.
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2010-02-04, 20:54
Member
7 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
Awesome idea, and not only from a players' pov. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds most games boring until the third map begins. After all, players tend to win their "own" map and usually the final score is obvious by the second minute. The basic concept still applies that the player who is better on 3 out of 5 maps wins as two of them are played in every game (unless, of course, he drops one of them himself).

Seems ridiculous this hasn't been thought of before...
2010-02-05, 04:02
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Nov 2008
zappater: Remember that also this new dropping system will allow players to totally forget a map (bye bye dm6!), which makes it even more unfair. I vote no.

PS: I don't want to play dm6, but i want the tourneys be as fair as possible. Can't we just remove/replace dm6 and stuck with the current map system ?
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2010-02-05, 07:26
News Writer
1263 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Another solution is to play all 5 maps each time and count the score in map wins. (just like in the polish 4on4 league, it only has 3 maps tho)
This way no map will be forgotten and you will have to be good at 3 maps to win a game.
Cant see how anyone could whine about this except for my next point: the time issue.

A normal duel would take 50 minutes game time and also some idle and in-between-maps-war extra time and maybe this is too much?

I generally dont play or spec duels but maybe this would be the most fair and exciting option?
Chosen
2010-02-05, 07:38
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Hooraytio wrote:
Another solution is to play all 5 maps each time and count the score in map wins. (just like in the polish 4on4 league, it only has 3 maps tho)
This way no map will be forgotten and you will have to be good at 3 maps to win a game.
Cant see how anyone could whine about this except for my next point: the time issue.

A normal duel would take 50 minutes game time and also some idle and in-between-maps-war extra time and maybe this is too much?

I generally dont play or spec duels but maybe this would be the most fair and exciting option?

Maybe the most fair, but playing 5 rounds of intense tournament duels each time you're facing someone is really exhausting. Don't think I would even sign up for that.

edit: Also seems abit waste of time during the early stages to force two players through 5 maps when the skill gap is just too big to make it even slightly interesting on any of the maps.
2010-02-05, 07:48
News Writer
1263 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Sure, but since it was brought up that it supposedly was unfair to be good at one map and also unfair to not get to play that one map i just thought of a way to avoid both these "problems"...

Also, how intense can it be in those first games?
How can it be a waste of time to prac all 5 maps even if you lose all 5 seeing as someone stated "practice, practice, practice" as a way to get better in an interview the other day
Lastly, when the games get intense, isnt it bo5 then anyway?
Just a thought...
Chosen
2010-02-05, 08:21
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
It's a waste of time for the superior player for sure, and I doubt everyone signing up for a tournament really want to "practice, practice, practice" to become better. And I always try my best during tournament games. If it involves getting as much frags as possible from an opponent whos giving up, or staying focused to try to win a tight game doesn't matter much. 50-55 mins of tournament games are exhausting, at least for me. Sure, I might be the one to blame for that

Isnt it normally BO5 just during from semi-finals and up? That would mean the group stages and / or every match up to the semifinal also being played 5 maps each which is probably quite a lot of games dependings abit on how many that actually signs up. The thought of fairness is good, though.
2010-02-05, 08:48
News Writer
1263 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Good point, so in the end this comes down to time vs fairness. Alltho im not even sure it is unfair and/or boring to use the current system

But what do i know, maybe some new guys will start playing the game if we keep changing maps and rules?!?!
Chosen
2010-02-05, 08:49
Member
381 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
Another solution is to play all 5 maps each time and count the score in map wins.

You know, I always wondered about this. It doesn't really make sense to play all 5 maps regardless of result, since the other maps become unnecessary at 3-0, but why not bo5? Wasn't the main reason for shorter early rounds so you could squeeze in more matches into a lan tournament which had a limited amount of time? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to have bo3 in early games in qw tournaments and bo5 in the later rounds. I mean, they don't play 60 minute games in the group stages of the world cup, and it seems roughly analogous to me.

The "time" argument doesn't really hold up either. A bo5 will, at worst, take one hour to complete, and who doesn't have one single hour a week to play qw?
2010-02-05, 09:06
News Writer
1263 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
The other maps dont become unnecessary since the score can be everything from 5-0 to 0-5 (4-1, 3-2 etc etc). I mean if 1p per map win is used.
At 3-0 the other player can still score 2 important point in the last 2 maps. (this is only important in division play tho)

In a knockout competition i agree with stev, play bo5 in all games

I think the time issue is more of it being exhausting (yeah?) than taking too long time.
Btw, with some ping whine, timeouts and other delays a bo5 can take much more time than 60mins
Chosen
2010-02-05, 16:42
Member
119 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
i like this simple bo5 idea, just /cmd rnd the five maps [edit]removing the played map for the next rnd[/edit], first to 3
2010-02-05, 18:08
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
bo5 makes more sense than the original propostion. I think on average it wont increase the game time that much.
2010-02-05, 21:05
Member
130 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I would really prefer Bo5, gets rid of all that nonsense. Don't really see why it would be a problem in online tournaments where you play one or two games per week.

If that is not possible for some reason, then I personally prefer dropping first. But I do think that most people want to play their best map and thus prefer dropping after.

I don't see the fact that you can always dodge one map a huge issue. Person doing that will pay the price since he can't drop his opponent's best map.

The main reason I prefer dropping first, is that too often dropping after means Bo1. First two games are just warm up and everyone knows it will come down to the last one.
2010-02-06, 13:24
Member
95 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
soma wrote:
All in all, I think it is fair to say that a true duel champ should be good on all (regularly) played maps, rather than just one, two or three. Some players are very good on ONE map exclusively, and tend to get far in duel tournaments nevertheless. This is because they play their one very good map at the start and practically enter the encounter with a 1-0 lead. Now for that player to win a round in a tourney, all he needs is to do okay on one other map. This player is likely to beat someone who is good on all 5 maps, but not VERY good on ONE specific map. To me, in a way, this seems kinda wrong. Also, it would might result in a greater variation of maps being played.

I don't really like this idea. I think a true duel champ should not only be good on all regularly played maps, but have a skill to NOT FUCK IT UP, even if he's in a bad situation. This means GIVING A 100% EFFORT ALL THE TIME. Awesome players, like Locktar have a tendency to fuck up in the last second, and that sucks.

Also, it seems weird not to give my opponent a chance to show me his best. I would WANT TO play my opponent's fave map.
2010-02-06, 14:19
Member
45 posts

Registered:
Oct 2009
but, bo5 at the early stages that could be 30minutes of pure rape - this is the point of the competition where the skill gaps are biggest and it makes the most sense _not_ to have bo5 innit?
2010-02-06, 15:08
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
ddk wrote:
but, bo5 at the early stages that could be 30minutes of pure rape - this is the point of the competition where the skill gaps are biggest and it makes the most sense _not_ to have bo5 innit?

well, you can always give wo if you don't feel like playing anymore. I don't thin that extra 10 min of target practice is going to be a big problem to the winner.
2010-02-06, 15:45
News Writer
1263 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007


dont play if you are afraid to lose ddk
Chosen
2010-02-06, 15:52
Member
100 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
i want to play my best map, and i want to play my opponent's best map. i want to play on the rest too . is it a very stupid idea to play 2-3 maps in a first round, then play the rest a few days later? ok maybe it is, im just thinking
2010-02-07, 17:54
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Agreed with bo5, often after official bo3 game I keep thinking how would the 4th map end, sometimes I even ask my opponent to play it unofficially.
2010-02-08, 09:35
Member
133 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
bo5 would be cool too.
Else I like these new rules. It's being used in pretty much any other fps game for tournaments for good reason imo.
2010-02-09, 14:18
Administrator
1231 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
this will be hell for 1-map-wonder players
I LIKE IT!

but this brings a serious problem. if you're a one map wonder player you wouldnt like to participate in a tournament like this.
ppl like to play in maps they like. I predict 20%-40% less signups in a system like this.
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
  52 posts on 2 pages  First page12Last page