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QW.nu polls
2009-10-06, 00:07
Member
174 posts

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Nov 2006
It's time to VOTE!
2009-10-06, 00:35
Member
382 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
This doesn't seem fair. You're splitting the votes of people who want 5 maps in half by having two 5-map categories. You're pairing the exciting cmt1b with the simplest, flattest and dullest map that no one gives a damn about, and you're not allowing for the fact that maybe people want to mix and match the 4 maps.

My vote would go for cmt1b and cmt3 if it was possible, and I think cmt4 is probably the most well known out of the 4.

Also, it's possible to vote for all 3 categories (I shall vote for the latter 2). Any chance of a poll fix? Maybe two polls? One a single-choice "5 maps or 3 maps" and another with multiple choices for all candidate maps?
2009-10-06, 00:41
Member
29 posts

Registered:
Apr 2007
maybe in playoff we try TB3 + CMT1b & Midcit ?
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2009-10-06, 00:51
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462 posts

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Jan 2006
Let's just replace e1m2 with cmt4. kthx.
2009-10-06, 00:52
Member
382 posts

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Apr 2006
Better to give teams all season to get used to "new" maps instead of the inevitable rapes we'd see in playoffs for the teams that hadn't bothered to learn them.
2009-10-06, 01:03
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174 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
I did think of that Stev even if it's not written there, but since we want this season to start off as soon as possible we don't really have time for more polls so we will keep an eye on how many votes the kenyas will get together before making any decisions. If we have enough time we might do another poll if the kenyas win. But notice, this is only if we have enough time! We also made this poll "open" to others than just clan leader who have one vote so the people who like kenyas but are in the "tb3 clans" can vote what they want to play.
So shortly, nothing promised here!
2009-10-06, 01:05
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29 posts

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Apr 2007
u have right Stev
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2009-10-06, 01:11
Administrator
869 posts

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Jan 2006
I still vote tb3 only, none of the suggested is fun/good/whatever enough
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2009-10-06, 01:24
Member
382 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Even if you don't like the few suggested maps, people stopped making new 4on4 maps long ago because no one was using them. By ignoring the few good ones we have (them being "good" and you not liking them are not mutually exclusive) we ensure that no one will make any you will like. :/
2009-10-06, 01:26
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
My opinion is that one day tournaments or one week might be better, for different maps labeled kenya should be had in the same way KTK was done and then the ones that are found good and liked should be used while those found disliked should be removed from any potential map pool forever. CMT3/4 has not been able to get played outside of tournaments even though they have been in map pools for various tournaments for a long time and should be added to the "never in a map pool again" list.

As I see it, only the maps people like and actually play a lot should be used, currently that is really dm2/3, with e1m2 at least being pracced some. If you guys want to play CMT3/4 then start playing them outside of tournaments instead of just shouting that you want them.

Obviously none of what I said can be implemented before this season and I do not speak on behalf of the eql admin team. This is only my opinion and has nothing to do with anyone else.
2009-10-06, 02:02
Member
382 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
The problem with only accepting maps that are played often is that no one will play a map unless it is accepted. 4on4 qw is so utterly competition-driven these days that no one will ever learn a map unless tournament success depends on it. That's probably the #1 reason given to me when I ask someone why they don't want to learn another map.
2009-10-06, 03:40
Member
45 posts

Registered:
Oct 2009
Stev wrote:
The problem with only accepting maps that are played often is that no one will play a map unless it is accepted. 4on4 qw is so utterly competition-driven these days that no one will ever learn a map unless tournament success depends on it. That's probably the #1 reason given to me when I ask someone why they don't want to learn another map.

Yeah, I have seen the same story a few times now; for example in Quake 3 when there was a mod switch for vq3 duel in 2005 (this is the most notable example I can currently think of). This was because arQon (CPMA lead dev) was pushing CPMA to CPL as he was on the CPL committee - none of duelling community in vq3 wanted to switch away from OSP, they were all extremely against it. But what could they do? The only major tournament at the time was forcing them all to make the switch because no-one would want to play a non-competition standard.

The example with CPL led to many trolls on esreality who were mainly cpm players using the idiotic argument of, "if you like OSP so much, just play it". This is just not how a competitively driven community works, as Stev so rightly pointed out. It is the leagues or tournament organisations that need to build the infrastructure and standard for the community and players. That argument should be rendered void, as it is non-sensical in the current context.

It is the tier one players that lead the rest of the competitive community, people want to aspire to the top, that is what it is about; on top of them having the most influence with tournament organisations/leagues. It may be asking a lot but it is important that the top tier maintain the integrity expected of the top tier, to help qw grow or achieve what they see best, not only in community but in the meta-game if that is even possible any more.

ps. stev is wise and knows bestestest.
2009-10-06, 04:14
Member
569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
i vote cmt1+cmt3+cmt4+midcit+tb3.

For decider, teams cant drop tb3 maps unless agreed so
2009-10-06, 05:49
Member
21 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Voted tb3+cmt1b+midcit, simply because the other two choices are getting a little too repetitive.
2009-10-06, 06:10
Member
1 post

Registered:
Aug 2007
Tb3!
2009-10-06, 06:39
Member
5 posts

Registered:
May 2006
It should be TB3 tuament not some random kenya maps. At lest if noobs need cmt4 should be added as a 4th map. and decider should be by random pick than. And if we add some shity maps maybe we can play without powerups and deathmath 3? omg! why we dont get one more player? lets play 5v5 and we should add arbiters that can give us "red card" than will be muth more fun 5v4 games? eh... this world going on bad side one more again...
2009-10-06, 07:07
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
the system in nqr was great. let clans decide to play tb3 or tb3+custommaps. this way most ppl will get satisfied
Chosen
2009-10-06, 09:16
Member
312 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
the system in nqr was great. let clans decide to play tb3 or tb3+custommaps. this way most ppl will get satisfied

Yes, except that kenya defenders want to force everyone to play a map they like.
2009-10-06, 09:30
Member
174 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
#17
There was a small flaw in the NQR system that I came to think about... or should we say, remembered from back then. Teams didn't choose kenyas because they would lose to a couple of clans who were kenya "experts" and therefor they had a smaller chance to get into playoffs. So it wasn't atleast for all about if the maps were nice or not, only winning which also made it just a couple of clans playing then back then even if they were quite popular (remembering some poll with tb3 vs kenya ~50/50). So that meant that all who would have liked to play it didn't since they didn't know the maps good enough back then.
Mipa, it's never a clan deciding that in reality. Nobody has atleast ever asked my opinion
2009-10-06, 10:59
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
zappater wrote:
As I see it, only the maps people like and actually play a lot should be used, currently that is really dm2/3, with e1m2 at least being pracced some. If you guys want to play CMT3/4 then start playing them outside of tournaments instead of just shouting that you want them.

Playing maps that are not included in tournaments is a waste of good praccing time. On the other hand maps that I hate like e1m2 I must still prac because they are in the tournament.
2009-10-06, 11:08
Administrator
869 posts

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Jan 2006
blAze wrote:
On the other hand maps that I hate like e1m2 I must still prac because they are in the tournament.

yea let's remove e1m2! woho. or not. map pool of 3 = perfect
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2009-10-06, 11:11
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
Seems like most understood me wrong, might be cause I was tired when I wrote that. What I was trying to say is, that I do not have a problem with using new maps in a tournament (even though I would prefer if they were first tested outside a tournament setting) but CMT3/4 have been in EQL for a long time and despite that they have not been getting widely accepted. I voted for cmt1b/midcit for this reason, but I do not think these maps need more than one chance.

What I am getting tired of is people like Stev who can sit here on the forum shouting for these maps to be used in competition but can't take the time to go out and prac them, as it is when CMT3/4 was in EQL no one was praccing them! I don't give a shit what maps are a part of EQL as long as they are actively played.
2009-10-06, 11:29
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462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
bps wrote:
yea let's remove e1m2! woho. or not. map pool of 3 = perfect

If we replace e1m2 with cmt4, the map pool is still 3 maps.

Zappater: We have always pracced maps that we may end up playing in the tournament, including cmt3 and 4.

I jumped around cmt1b and midcit yesterday and they didn't seem like good 4on4 maps to me. Armors and weapons are difficult to defend and seem to be placed just in the middle of the floor in random places that don't really require an effor to get to. They seem to lack distinct areas: every place on the map looks the same. So they have same elements as cmt3 that I also don't like very much.
2009-10-06, 11:38
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569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
zappater wrote:
What I am getting tired of is people like Stev who can sit here on the forum shouting for these maps to be used in competition but can't take the time to go out and prac them, as it is when CMT3/4 was in EQL no one was praccing them! I don't give a shit what maps are a part of EQL as long as they are actively played.

This is just not true. We (a2k) used to prac cmt3/cmt4 just about as much as other maps (or e2m2tdm for that mater), those seasons they were included in eql/nqr.

On a side note, I think that it is not important which 2maps are added (all these 4 maps is good enough), time spent playing on the map is what gives the map quality.
The thing to maybe consider about map layout is that the macro-strategy should not be easily copied from one map to another, like dm3 to cmt3)
2009-10-06, 11:45
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
Great, 3 teams praccing cmt3/4 out of.. what did we have eql 8? 40 teams?...
Yes I already know of a2k, tVS and na fianna as clans that play those maps I am just saying, those are the only clans doing it. When I can look at maps played and easily find a bunch of pracs on dm2/3 every day but only find a prac on cmt3/4 once a week, maybe, then something is wrong.
2009-10-06, 12:06
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Poll is pointless, less-skilled teams will do better on smaller map pool, as they more easily get they teamplay somehow working for 3 maps than on 5. High-skilled teams are not afraid of this, but they make up only minority of the scene -> only minority will logically vote for 5 maps pool.

Suggestion to allow per-team choice of tb3/tb5 map pool is pointless. No team will opt-in for having to prac on 5 maps and therefore having proportionally less time to prac tb3 compared to teams who have chosen tb3.

Use your fucking brains for once.

The only reasonable poll is to ask players which non-tb3 maps they consider best for 4on4 and use that (top 2 winners) for tb5 map pool for all.
2009-10-06, 12:31
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Nov 2008
zappater wrote:
What I am getting tired of is people like Stev who can sit here on the forum shouting for these maps to be used in competition but can't take the time to go out and prac them

Sorry but you are wrong, stev along with some other players used to organize cmt1b mixes all days, i remember like 10-15 games every single day, until people went out to their summer holidays. They did a great effort, and it was played more than e1m2.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-10-06, 12:38
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8 posts

Registered:
Sep 2009
Map pools must be decided 1 year ahead or something so that teams know exactly which maps are the ones to practice and have time to do it. Or? Isn't EQL about to start? Seems unfair to ask now. Unless we actually do want randomness.
2009-10-06, 12:40
Administrator
2048 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
The map issue sucks until there are more maps being explored in the world of Quake. That midcit is even considered is a proof of how flawed the discussion on the 4on4 map topic is atm.
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2009-10-06, 12:54
Member
61 posts

Registered:
Sep 2009
I don't see the problem that so many people have with other maps being allowed. If I recall correctly, NQR started out as a 4-4 ladder that allowed every clan to choose the map they wanted from tb3 + exmx maps. Ofcourse the format was a bit different but I don't remember that many people having so much problems with it especially since you had smackdown at the same time which was a pure tb3 league.

My point is that it was still fun playing those crazy maps for a lot of people and you could specialize your team on some map to even win a map against a better clan. I would like to see such a format return but I guess I am the only one. In my opinion you could force a decider to always be tb3. This way you get alot of great matches and some variety. Qw 4-4 is becoming very shallow with now even people saying that e1m2 has to be removed? Blasphemy...

There are so many fun exmx maps but because people feel safe on dm3 they just want to play that. I would like to play any map that my opponent chooses. You know it before you will play them and you can try that map out and think about some strategy. That's what we did back then and it was a nice challenge to beat that lesser clan overall, that was still better at some map that they had specialized in. Eventually the better team will still always win.

EDIT: When I say I would like to see that format return I am not talking about the ladder, I mean the choose any homemap you want because it is your clan's homemap

Also I would like to add that I think it is useless to add only 1 or 2 maps to TB3. I think you have to choose a direction: it either has to be a hardcore TB3 only league, or a hardcore 4-4 league with a homemap of your choice albeit a decider on tb3 (because of lack of some other kind of system to choose decider).
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