User panel stuff on forum
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2009-04-23, 06:30
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I received my 120hz Viewsonic Fuhzion (VX2265WM) yesterday and thought it was worth mentioning here. If you don't want to read further, I can simply say it rocks.

This is a 22" display with native resolution of 1680x1050. The difference compared to other 22" LCD's is the TRUE 120hz refresh rate, no interpolation tricks here (that you have on 120hz TV screens). My previous display was a HP P1130 which I ran at 1024x768@154hz. After plugging this new 120hz display I can barely notice the difference between 154/120 hz. I also had a Samsung 226BW display which had the lowest input lag I've seen on the tests (even beating the Benq G2400W(D) in digitalversus.com tests). This Samsung on the other hand run at 60hz or 75hz, but even the 75hz felt unplayable compared to the CRT. It was simply too blurry when something moved and specially when you yourself turn - everything just turned blurry. The Fuhzion on the other hand shows a really sharp image in all action and it even looks better than the crappy CRT I had. (the CRT wasn't the sharpest, text was slightly blurry even in lower resolutions) Sure, there was 34 more screen updates on the CRT but the image quality was far from the LCD - plus it ran on lower resolution.

Hardforum has some user reviews with input lag tests and the result is 0ms. Might not be the most creditable source, but does look good. I will not be plugging my CRT back for tests, I'm satisfied with the performance. Read more on HardForum (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1033779603 - notice the first test is against another TFT, go to page 2 for CRT comparison). As said on the forum also, there are a few downsides too: there is no OnScreenDisplay and NO buttons to control brightness/contrast. Or there actually are two buttons for brgithness, but they do not work You have to adjust these from your graphics card software.

Other downsides are the pricetag of 399, the fact that you can get 120hz only at native resolution (sure you can get stable 120/240/360/...fps in QW at 1680x1050?) and you do need to have a DUAL link dvi output on your GFX card. I'm running a E6600 dual core processor with 9600GT geforce card and can maintain 360fps on the native resolution. I haven't really tested all the configurations yet, but my current seems to be quite good (120hz / 360fps / physfps 77 / mouse 1000hz). Might also be worth tyring 480fps/500hz mouse. Physfps 60 wouldn't be good I guess and 75 hardly could be better than 77?

I played a couple of rounds of dmm4 and some 2on2/4on4 and I personally appreciate the widescreen format. You get to use a slightly higher FOV with a widescreen and maintain the same feeling, so you end up seeing a bit more. Surely doesn't help in dmm4, but 4on4 is another thing. I didn't miss my CRT on DM2 quad action, this can keep up with enemies flying all over and you spinning around in the middle.

I will not do any desktop tests for image quality and can't even say anything on that yet. Sure it is a TN panel so you can't expect too much, although according to Renzo the Benq G2400WD performed well. On default settings it is way too bright, but I was able to adjust brightness/contrast/gamma from GFX drivers to see your basic test chart from white to black with all the shades of gray... Viewing angle does not cause any problems and with my quick experience, it felt better than the Samsung (Samsung clearly had issues with viewing angle even when looking at it on normal angle).

I already put an announcement on giving my old CRT away. The monitor is in Helsinki, feel free to fetch it
2009-04-23, 15:06
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samsung also makes one of these model 2233rz i believe (edit: which does not need dual link iirc)
2009-04-23, 17:03
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yer that's right, 2233rz is here in sweden 28th of april... and btw dedi, im gonna buy that monitor too..
Where did you buy if from?

No retailers in sweden yet
2009-04-23, 17:08
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!phil wrote:
samsung also makes one of these model 2233rz i believe (edit: which does not need dual link iirc)

No. You will definitely need a graphics card capable of at least one dual-link DVI ports. At 1680*1050 the bandwidth required for 120Hz at 24bits (8bits per channel) is 5,08Gbps that exceeds the bandwidth of a single-link DVI:

Quote:
Bandwidth

(Single Link) 3.96 Gbit/s
(Dual Link) 7.92 Gbit/s

This also means that monitors with resolution 2560*1600 (30" will not be able to handle 120Hz unless something changes drastically. 24" monitors with 1920*1200 resolution are still good to go with dual-link DVI ports (bw required is 6,64Gbps).


dedi wrote:
Sure it is a TN panel so you can't expect too much, although according to Renzo the Benq G2400WD performed well.

They are totally different panels. Saying G2400WD has somewhat good image quality (actually, rather exceptional) for a TN-panel does not apply to all of the TN panels out there, but quite the opposite.


EDIT 1: I'm actually stickying this topic for a while since I think it's important to let people know about this stuff.

EDIT 2:
There are two reviews of the 2233rz. Xbitlabs and Digitalversus. I haven't seen a "real" review of fuhzion yet, but I'm sure they both are quite the same after all, perhaps slight differences in image quality/colors.
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2009-04-23, 17:22
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Reading your post, you do indeed seem to know what you are talking about. Which means this monitor is very interesting.
2009-04-23, 18:41
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Jun 2006
LG L227WTG-PF Black 22" 2ms Widescreen LCD Monitor - $229.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005109

I picked up this LG which should have 0ms input lag, might have 5ms on average but that is something that I can deal with. It didn't break the bank either like the viewsonic 120hz. I'm not expecting it to work very well with Quakeworld since it can only do 75hz but I'll let you guys know how it goes.

This thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206 is awesome for picking out monitors. Check out post #2 for reccomendations on nearly every 22"-24" lcd out there right now separated by category (gamer / word processing / design etc)

120hz on a lcd would be butter. Hopefully the price goes down on those.
--irc.quakenet.org #telefrag.me and #QWL | foogsQuakeWorld Ladder
2009-04-24, 06:45
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Jul 2007
Renzo wrote:
dedi wrote:
Sure it is a TN panel so you can't expect too much, although according to Renzo the Benq G2400WD performed well.

They are totally different panels. Saying G2400WD has somewhat good image quality (actually, rather exceptional) for a TN-panel does not apply to all of the TN panels out there, but quite the opposite.

Sorry if I put it wrong here, I totally agree with Renzo here. My expectations are not high for the quality of a TN panel, but also wanted to note that there is at least one difference to this rule. If you want to make sure you get a fast response, low input lag, 120hz, good image quality display, you should probably get two displays.

I'm not sure how many of you actually need a professional level display, or even can tell the difference if not compared side by side. I personally was satisfied with the old Samsung 226BW (TN) and this vx2265wm feels good too. I do shoot photos and do some print too and these displays are enough for me. If you publish your photos online, one might even argue a non-pro display will give better results as the viewers probably have the same level display. For print I'm sure you are better off with a display that does a good reproduction of CMYK (or whatever colorspace the print uses). Also if your display has slightly uneven brightness distribution, do you really care? As long as I can adjust for an image like this: http://www.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/monitor_check_calibration.jpg , it is enough for me. Surely these are not the major issues with QW, so lets take a turn back

I noticed the competitor, 2233RZ, too. I googled for reviews and specially input lag / ghosting tests. According to these "non-official" tests, the 2233RZ has some issues with input lag: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=20

This test was not run in perfect conditions, so that might have affected the results. So I wouldn't yet judge 2233RZ to be worse. We need someone to do a comparison between these two, or atleast proper tests against a CRT to even be able to judge inputlag / ghosting. But as these were the only tests awailable at the time, I went for the one that was reported to perform better.
2009-04-24, 07:58
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dedi wrote:
I'm not sure how many of you actually need a professional level display, or even can tell the difference if not compared side by side.

...snip...

Also if your display has slightly uneven brightness distribution, do you really care?

I'm one of those who really care, since I do photoshopping every now and then (few times a week, sometimes even more). The TN viewing angle is exceptionally bad when your viewing distance is not so great. For example on my 24" TN I find it really difficult to compare brightness of the upper/lower areas and especially the side areas. All this leads to moving your head and/or moving the image on screen a lot and that's just extra work. Uneven brightness can lead to same kind of problems but luckily G2400WD has somewhat even brightness so it doesn't bother that much, unlike the viewing angle problem.

Well, that was just one example but if you really do some photo editing you will notice this easily, and get annoyed by it. In games or watching movies/series won't be any worse though, unless the game itself is dark and there is back light bleeding.

In short: The bigger the screen, the more problematic the viewing angle issue becomes. The shorter the viewing distance, the bigger the viewing angle problem. Colors affect publishing work mostly, but someone with some experience in photo-editing might be annoyed or then not (as long as the colors are not really weak, then it's a real problem). Unever brightness is the same, especially when it's highly visible. Gamers "only" will not care probably, but that's where the TNs are directed to anyway.

(Yes, I'd love to test few 120Hz displays )
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2009-05-06, 22:12
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I had Samsung 2233rz 120hz monitor in test some days and all I can say it is superb. Too bad I had to give it back and turn on my 22" samsung @ 75hz again. I didnt have crt so cant really say was it as good but what I can remember... it sure was The difference between 75hz 2ms Samsung and 120hz was huge... and I can honestly say its time to throw crts away. Even for Blaze and Ihminen
Image, contrast etc was real good too... nothing bad to say.


I also tested Nvidia 3D glasses with that monitor. Those were real cool and really felt like I was IN the action. 3D may not be good for serious online gaming but cant really say after few hours test. Also had problem with fps... when 3D was turned on fps dropped 2/3. I have 8800gt and in COD5 fps dropped from 90 to 30... But anyways I saw the future there and soon we all have those glasses

In mouse test I had MS x3 and X8. X3 is a good basic (optical 2000dpi) mouse and I can recommend that if you dont need side buttons. X8 was not the right mouse for third-person shooting games even thought it was good. If someone wants to buy X3 or X8 just contact me

Last I tested logitech's G13 gameboard and MS X6 keyboard. G13 was so good that I will start to use it... more space for mousepad. X6 keyboard felt good too but Im gonna stay with my G15 keyboard.
2009-05-07, 12:50
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Just regarding image quality of TN and other techniques:

I got a 20" DELL 2007WFP S-IPS panel display, speced at 16ms (BW), 8ms GTG. First of all I can say that it's not good enough for QW. There is no problem with ghosting, but the actual problem is that it's not smooth at all. Probably the problem lies within the refreshrate (60hz). On the other hand it's a great display when it comes to photo editing etc, since there is a HUGE (and i really mean huge) difference between TN-panel screens and S-IPS. One funny example is that old hotmail (dunno if it's the same with the new theme), one had a really hard time noticing the difference in bg-color for read and unread mail on a TN-screen.

A person that has never used a display with a better type of panel than TN is probably satisfied with the TN, but once you've tried anything else, you don't wanna go back to TN. Even though it's not suited for qw, I feel that it was worth every penny i spent on my S-IPS screen
2009-05-07, 22:43
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http://www.dustinhome.se/pd_5010313289.aspx
2009-05-08, 04:24
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fAkkFejz wrote:

http://www.dustinhome.se/pd_5010313289.aspx

unless prisjakt.nu is broken, you can get that monitor for 1kkr less from komplett.se
2009-05-08, 06:28
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btw. anyone know if there is any true 120hz-24",1920*1200 about soon?
2009-05-08, 07:18
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That interests me too. I don't think there will be any (available at least) in the near future, but perhaps later this year or sometime next year? The problem is that these 120Hz TFTs were actually announced last year, in december or so, yet you still can't get them easily.
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2009-05-08, 09:23
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Yep, Fuhzion was revealed in August 2008 and first deliveries in US were around December, and still it's not in stock in Europe. I have not seen anynews on bigger size / resolution 120hz displays yet.

For some it might be useful to have FullHD on desktop, some might prefer a TV for movies and some even a theatre! But seriously, would a TN panel quality be sufficient for someone who has to have 1920 instead of 1680? For a techno freak, which is more important, resolution or image quality?
2009-05-08, 09:45
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dedi wrote:
But seriously, would a TN panel quality be sufficient for someone who has to have 1920 instead of 1680? For a techno freak, which is more important, resolution or image quality?

G2400WD is 24" and 1920*1200, and it has "enough" image quality for that size, having some problems with viewing angles because of the proximity to the viewer (but G2400WD was one of those TNs with adequate IQ anyway). After having 21" monitor for years and using 1600*1200 resolution, there's only one way to go (for me at least). There isn't a slightest chance I'd go for anything less than 1600*1200 capable monitor anymore, I just need the resolution for desktop and the screen size too.
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2009-05-26, 21:47
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I have an 2233rz ... running with maxfps 500, well it doesnt really matter if i have 308 nor 500, but lets keep it 500.

120hz TFT, some say it's 3ms, some say its 5ms... tbh, i've played qw today testing it out... compared to my crt, i dont really think i feel any diffrence.
It's fucking unbelieavable good for fps games. I just love this monitor...

I've filmed myselfe playing with my digital camera.. tho it doesn't make the monitor justice with 15fps output.
Anyways, you can grab it Here


For those who cant see here.. it's Here > http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZJMMBIPC
2009-05-26, 23:00
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phrenic wrote:
some say it's 3ms, some say its 5ms...

It is both. 3ms for gray-to-gray transition, 5ms for black-to-white-to-black transition. Manufacturers like to play with these numbers and usually give out both, but not always.
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2009-05-27, 16:23
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Prices and distributors for that Viewsonic...?
In Europe
2009-06-02, 23:10
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anyone tested one of these yet and found out of well they perform vs a 150+ hz crt?
2009-06-03, 05:44
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I still do have the Viewsonic Rikoll And I did have a 150+hz crt before this one and have not been missing the CRT, not even once. I took it to recycling long ago. I felt that 60hz TFT was unplayable, 75hz was still quite horrible. But 120hz is definitely on par with a 150hz CRT for me. And due to the fact that my CRT was 8 years old or so and had grown "old and gray", the image quality of this new TFT is from another planet (+ I like the wide screen format, although you can get that with some CRTs too).

If you consider a zero input lag 60hz TFT and this 120hz (also reported 0ms input lag), the main difference is how well it keeps up when turning. The screen doesn't blur! Over a 60hz you get most advantage in situations like 2on2 DM4 where there are a lot of movement around the LG area or in DM2 quad area when people are rushing for the quad. Also you will probably get better LG scores, but just as it is with a CRT, it alone doesn't make you a good shaftsman. At least didn't really help me

If you can afford it and want to get rid of 20+kg of old CRT, I would say you will not miss a single kilo of that old CRT.
2009-06-03, 07:53
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Thanks for the input dedi. Might check it out once i start earning some money then
2009-06-05, 12:12
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I was on a shopping spree today...

* New comp, 5 800~ sek
* Samsung SyncMaster 2233RZ, 3 330 sek (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=411100) - phrenic: what did you pay for your?

Now I'm just hoping the retailer isn't as bad as some comments say :xd:
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2009-06-06, 00:33
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Nice... i bougt mine from komplett.se for 3495:- since i wanted a real nice retailer with quick shipping time!
2009-06-17, 12:19
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Update:
* Got my comp yesterday, but found out that it was totally damaged from transport. gg
* Just picked up the monitor! Altough I won't be able to use it (dvi-dl) on my old comp... gg
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2009-06-17, 14:48
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hahahaha
2009-06-17, 15:33
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bad luck
2009-06-22, 07:23
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Update #2:
* Got another computer, this time intact and lightning fast, woho
* The monitor OWNS. Freakin' awsome. Can the summer just end so another eql can start? kiddin. However, I really can't get it to show 4:3 format in qw. I use 1024x768, but it get stretched, although I've enabled "auto" as the mode on the screen size. Does anyone know how to fix this?
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2009-06-22, 09:47
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bps try vid_wideaspect = 1
2009-06-22, 10:01
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bps wrote:
However, I really can't get it to show 4:3 format in qw. I use 1024x768, but it get stretched, although I've enabled "auto" as the mode on the screen size. Does anyone know how to fix this?

You don't really want it to, you want to use full screen area with corrected geometry. I wrote a wiki entry a long time ago, but if you use nightly alphas then the help above should do the trick (in case bioass got it working properly).

http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Widescreen_Guide
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