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General Discussion
2008-06-01, 11:04
Member
51 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
!phil wrote:
spooink wrote:
nerf shaft!
its just too good with todays clients+precision.
2 years ago there were some LG specialists like inter etc but nowadays everyone has a good shaft and imo the whole 1on1-mode has turned into a huge lg-aim-fest and definately less fun! ofc people will say now that qw lives off its weapons imbalance and shaft was always the most powerful weapon but i really think that it has gone too far.
just play a few dm4/6s without LG and you will notice how much the gameplay changes. i tried that last week and we had ALOT more fun during those games.
and YES , im frustrated cause i get owned by good shafters alot!

Reppie.

well, the fact that there is one (or a few) player(s) who can easily win against shaftmonsters with pure rocket aim and movement doesnt justify anything.
a worse player with a better lg aim can still win over a player whos better in all other aspects of the game.and that should not be the case imo. atleast not as extreme as it has become the last year...
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I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in fourteen days I had lost exactly two weeks.
2008-06-01, 12:40
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
spooink wrote:
A worse player with a better lg aim can still win over a player whos better in all other aspects of the game.

I disagree.

You can't call yourself a better player if you continuously lose more than you win against a player who "only has his LG aim". Since "skill" is a sum of many things, very good LG-aim can improve your overall "skill" as much that it can compensate on your lacking tactics (for example).

In the end when both players are tanked, the one with better aim usually wins if there's no way of escaping when being hurt badly. If you find yourself losing lots of battles against an LG opponent, then it's time to improve your LG-aim or tactics to change that.

I'm sure phil can tell us a story about how he beat an opponent in dm6 who had twice phil's lg skills.
Servers: Troopers
2008-06-01, 13:40
Member
51 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
you didnt get my point renzo. im not saying that you cant win against good shafters. im doing that for 8 years now on dm6 . but a good lg will definately thin the skill-gap between 2 players. and the thing im complaining about is that the effect of it is by far too big.
lets not turn that into a LG-overpowered discussion anyway.
i just wanted to say that you should be a bit more open to ideas and changes to the game. people will always say "thats qw!" , "we like it that way!" , "why change it?" but they seem to completely ignore that other factors (like hardware, age/time/dedication of the players) have alot of influence on it.
this situation is not only found in qw. there are other games where the game and the players have evolved so much that it needed changes to "fix" it and bring back the so-loved "old" game.
and ofcourse thats just my opinion. *I* am not enjoying 1on1s as much as a few years ago because of that...
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I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in fourteen days I had lost exactly two weeks.
2008-06-02, 13:23
Administrator
1257 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
regarding shaft. since the first lgc i noticed an increased lg aim on every player i meet.
I agree with spoink, nowadays shaft is just too powerful, if u miss a rocket you're probably fucked vs a good shafter. and those players know that they have good shaft aim, they use and abuse of their ability, making gameplay less fun. ive beaten aimbot on dm6 because he had lousy tactics, but vs an ok player with great shaft i probably have no chance, even if he's worse than me in every remaining skill (even more if we consider the ping issue).

Overpowered Shaft _IS_ a problem in modern qw, i ask map makers to make maps without lg. a good shaft hides the lack of skill. Ofc shaft is a skill, but you can change settings just to improve shaft (as lgc proven to us), like using lower fov and sensitivity. If one changes these settings has automatically better shaft skills. and that sucks.


being a hpb myself, i find over-use of shaft really annoying. not all players play with ping 20 on every server they play (then comes the ping whine when they cant get 20ms. why is that? "cant play like this! no 30% lg anymore? shit server!"
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2008-06-02, 13:53
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
if your opponent has better shaft than you, get over it. really.
or try to improve your shaft or other areas of your game.
2008-06-02, 14:04
Member
95 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
ruskie wrote:
if your opponent has better shaft than you, get over it. really.
or try to improve your shaft or other areas of your game.

agreed.
2008-06-02, 14:45
Member
1435 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
If LG damage was reduced, good shafter would still be a good shafter, same for bad shafters.
2008-06-02, 14:57
Member
569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Is the overpowered shaft really an issue? It should be possible to deny cells on dm6. I only find it annoying on dm4.. or perhaps.. I find dm4 annoying.

On the other duelmaps it's no big problem...

But yes, game play has changed. Just compare e1m2 with average ping 60ms and avg 13ms. Because shotgun is more power full now days, RL is less important and armors is much more important.
2008-06-02, 15:05
Administrator
1257 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
theres nothing we can do about shaft-whores

follow topic
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2008-06-02, 15:47
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
what about rl-whores? shooting those damn prediction-rockets!
2008-06-02, 15:56
Member
303 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
maybe don't change damage shaft delivers or beam refresh rate but instead give it much less knockback? (or how it is called) Right now, when someone hit you with the shaft, it feels like you were hit by a train, and it's very hard to escape from line of fire, especially if you were in air. Holding someone in air with thunderbolt is really awesome, but it happens in qw too often - compared to other fps games that also have shaft. Enemy should stay on the height that he was catched with shaft, not be pushed even higher.
2008-06-02, 15:59
Member
125 posts

Registered:
Jan 2008
mushi wrote:
Overpowered Shaft _IS_ a problem in modern qw, i ask map makers to make maps without lg. a good shaft hides the lack of skill

That is certainly not the solution to the problem, whats next then, remove RL from DM2 because thats all RL aim.
2008-06-02, 16:07
Member
715 posts

Registered:
May 2006
I would say the most charming thing with LG is it's knockback, remove that and it's not so charming anymore. Plus, another view is if the shaft damages less you could hold an opponent much longer in the air
---Where can you see lions? Only in kenya! Come to kenya we've got lions.
2008-06-02, 17:07
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
grenade launcher dealing 120 damage, rocket launcher dealing 100+20 random and shaft 600 damage for 3 seconds of 100% lg.
optimal usage of these weapons would be fire,gl wait until opponent walks over it and hit him with rl at the same time and hit lg at the opponent while he is stuck in the roof. each of these steps takes varying amount of skill.
if you can do one better than the other, you sir won the price. so, please ban this overpowered combo and weapons!
2008-06-02, 19:20
Member
355 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
ruskie wrote:
and shaft 600 damage for 3 seconds of 100% lg.

Should be 900 damage for 3 seconds of 100% lg.
2008-06-02, 19:52
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
ye
2008-06-02, 20:41
Member
802 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
a easily, simple and clean way to reduce the use o LG, is to increase the consume of cells per second.
https://tinyurl.com/qwbrasil - QuakeFiles
2008-06-02, 20:56
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
If you increase the "push" the LG does on the player, it will push them out of the 600unit range of the shaft itself... thus making the shaft less effective.

if (attacker.weapon == IT_LIGHTNING)
{
dir = targ.origin - (inflictor.absmin + inflictor.absmax) * 0.5;
dir = normalize(dir);
targ.velocity = (targ.velocity + ((dir * damage) * 12));//increased 150%
}
else
2008-06-02, 21:03
Member
792 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
don't know why everybody starts arguing about shaft all of a sudden.

if you've got a good idea for a mod, duel or whatever game mode, go right ahead. just present it properly and open minded people will try it and tell you if the gameplay is fun. personally i'm all for new qw mods, i even have some ideas for a mod myself.
2008-06-02, 21:55
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
ok so I was bored and threw this together, it basically makes the lg into a pole vault.
Might not be PRO gamer quality but its kinda funny non the less.

void(vector p1, vector p2, entity from, float damage) LightningDamage =
{
traceline (p1, p2, FALSE, self);
if (trace_ent.takedamage)
{
particle (trace_endpos, '0 0 100', 225, damage*4);
T_Damage (trace_ent, from, from, damage);
}
else //R00k, this allows a PUSH when shafting the floor, LG pole vaulting!!
{
local vector dir;
if (trace_fraction != 1)
{
dir = (p1 - p2);
dir = normalize(dir);

from.velocity = (from.velocity + ((dir * damage) * 2.5));
}
}
};
2008-06-02, 22:07
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
hahaha most awesome
2008-06-02, 22:31
Member
715 posts

Registered:
May 2006
Something I was playing with is a self-pushback when shooting with ng/sng (like an airfist but weaker), quite fun to fly around with
---Where can you see lions? Only in kenya! Come to kenya we've got lions.
2008-06-02, 22:59
Member
705 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
pushback! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#Recoil_myth
2008-06-04, 15:45
Administrator
1257 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I liked these ideas from renzo:

Renzo wrote:
- No changes in movement or speed, QW should feel QW after all
- Limit the amount of ammo: Instead of flooding 99+ rockets and pines you'd actually have to aim to take the frag, or make a nice trap.
- Max rocket/grenade damage is always 100 without the rand*(20)
- No other changes in damage, perhaps add some strength to axe attack?
- Spawnmodel slightly adjusted from KTX respawns (do not deny same spawn but make it more difficult to happen)

and i add my own:
- reduce the power of shaft or limit the amount of cells the player can carry(much much less) or make the shaft "eat" more cells for each shot fired.
- new weapon/powerup/prize??
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2008-07-15, 07:11
Member
252 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
If you're gonna change anything...
RL direct hit should do either 110 damage like yawnmode(because that's the average, not 100) or make it do damage proportional to the distance from the centre of the player like GL(still not possible to get 120 because the centre is inside the player), make the ax do 25 or 30 damage instead of 20, make nails do 10 damage instead of ?9? and super nails 20 instead of ?18?. However these are very bold and arrogant changes to make. I'm content with NG and SNG being picked up incidentally and used only for stopping speeding players and (SNG) when rockets and cells are gone, and the lowly 20 damage of the ax adds to the humilation of the fragged, the 100+(0,...,20) is annoying sometimes but no more than a good or bad spawn, or a flukey piece of spam, or spawn telefrag : ).

A change that might replace the default could be non random respawn delay though (fixed at the minimum of the three random times) and maybe removing the horizontal randomness of grenades

And of course it goes without saying that fallbunny is enabled
'on 120 ping i have beaten mortuary dirtbox and reload' (tm) mz adrenalin
'i watched sting once very boring and not good at all' (tm) mz adrenalin
[i]'i shoulda won all
2008-07-15, 12:39
Member
1026 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
some critical issues from my POV that i'm sure most people (99%) agree with:
- GA is too weak
- nailguns are useless
- can stack too much ammo
- TB3 maps didn't age very well on some aspects, except maybe DM6, while at the opposite end DM2 is a joke.
(very hard to touch issue though)

+ vwep is needed. the generic weapon display belongs to the Doom era IMHO

Quake3 community realized their game didn't age well especially because of substantional netcode improvements that favors the hitscan weapons so much. they're building an improved vanilla version called cq3 and they seem pretty open to it.

i'm afraid said thing won't happen to QW, because the top layer of players only wants to preserve the gameplay state in which they're most confortable to win :<

it's time to give up on purism, because id software fucked up every game at some point gameplay wise.. QW was their best, but not that close to being perfect.
god damn hippies >_<
2008-07-15, 13:18
Administrator
1257 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
AQUASHARK FTW



seriously, i agree with him. except in one point
Aqua wrote:
- nailguns are useless

sng is pretty powerful at close range and it has the power to slow the opponent (break momentum)

Aqua wrote:
- can stack too much ammo

true, in 2 weapons: gl and lg.

imo, reduce lg ammo to maximum 50cells and change gl ammo to maximum 2 grens per minute (thats 20 grens in 10minutes or 40 grens in 20min - enough for most ppl i think)
/imo
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2008-07-15, 13:51
Member
1026 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
mushi wrote:
sng is pretty powerful at close range and it has the power to slow the opponent (break momentum)

damage is fine i guess, but usability = insignificant.

with faster nails you can deal more damage and slow opponent in more situations to the point it's actually worth:
a) picking; b) binding; c) switching & using.. not just in 1 out of 1000 situations in duel @ DM6 for example.

in TDM the weapon would become a real transition point in weapon tiers, lessening the tiresome and excessive shotgun spam, that is so repetitive and dull.

jawnmode has the right speed setting i believe.
god damn hippies >_<
2008-07-15, 18:06
Member
355 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
Aquashark wrote:
- GA is too weak
+ vwep is needed. the generic weapon display belongs to the Doom era IMHO

I disagree on these two points. Really not sure how to explain why I think the GA is fine, but if you grab mega you essentially have 260 health which is a lot. If you increase its protection, it'll be like a second YA.

I think VWEP should stay on spectator/qtv/demos only. There are still players who do not use sg scripts and there are too many situations where an enemy can see a weapon you or someone who doesn't use a sg script is hiding.
2008-07-15, 18:46
Member
1754 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
mushi wrote:
imo, reduce lg ammo to maximum 50cells and change gl ammo to maximum 2 grens per minute (thats 20 grens in 10minutes or 40 grens in 20min - enough for most ppl i think)
/imo

that's not pretty fair, for the gl-carrying guy in 4v4 that is :/

on another note, I agree with plazmaz
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