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2007-03-09, 15:49
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... isn't that bright as it is.

We can make it shine more time tho, Up2nogood said that the new ezQ version will be more noob friendly. these are good news. Also there has been some discutions about kenya maps, and ways to get new ppl into qw. <- this is what this thread is all about.

I hope ppl will participate on this thread with their opinions, ideas, etc



I've been reading some ideas ppl write on this forum about ways to get, some of them are great! ill list some here, just the listing, they will be discussed shortly.
a "sketch" of my global idea is already written here: http://quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=17423#p17423
you should read it to share my vision
feel free to add ideas, making sure they're realistic, can be acheived in 1year time and can improve the community in some manner -> reply

* kenya leagues
these leagues intend to interess ppl into playing more maps. for current players AND for newbs
already in action -> 1on1, soon 2on2 (nnql staff)
proposed -> FFA for current players AND FFA for new players (newbs)
hopefully the FFA noobs league will get some players. these new players can join a common channel on qnet irc (see below)

This FFA league will be simple to organize. just a blank html with a excel screenshot with all the players and stats - i can do this. just need the screenshots

* new # @ quakenet
noobs need a place to get together. #qwhelp is fine, but its more specific, and personally i wouldnt like seeing ppl asking for games there. The solution imho is getting a new noob channel on qnet, something like #qwrookies

* getting a tutor for interested newbies
noobs (most of them prolly come from ffa noobs league) can get a tutor. Im sure some ppl wouldnt mind being a tutor for these guys, and there's always #qwhelp. this way tutors won't get "overquestioned". once again, tutors and rookies can be on a common channel (#qwrookies ?)


* when to advance with flood advertise quake ?
when everything's ready. write a nice little text written by english native speaker. then some ppl should post this on gaming sites
the text should mention:
ezquake new version, #qwhelp, this forum, fquake, kenya ffa league,
who writes this? reply.
any more ideas on what the text should mention? reply and ill add to this list


* ....



i have a pretty good idea on how to do these stuff i just posted.
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2007-03-09, 15:59
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dude, there is just 2 much talk and no action!!

dont talk the talk when u cant walk the walk!!!


we all know the problems of qw and how to solve them, dont need to start a new topic about the same issue thats going on in the other threds

so zzzz
2007-03-09, 16:01
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the tutor idea won't work.

if you started playing a new (old?) game, would you want someone TUTORING you?

a friendly player giving hints is fine, but tutors?
2007-03-09, 16:16
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If i have understood this correctly, a tutor is what we would call a "handledare" in swedish. Someone to ask questions about anything in Quakeworld of course, but also more specifically about the game mechanics. What to do in 1on1, 2on2 and, the most heavy game mode of them all; 4on4. I think this is kind of what i'm doing with my friends now and they don't seem to mind being "tutored" as they are happy to find out any hint or tactic that makes them better. If you feel that you've got the spare time to learn some players how to setup and play Quakeworld then just do it. Sure a channel could help, but i mean, sure you know some new players that could use some extra help. Just ask them! Or get your friends to play and help them out or whatever. Just do something!
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2007-03-09, 17:58
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that's more "a friendly player giving hints"

it's the label "tutor" and having a channel where people can like apply for a tutor that I don't think will be a great success
2007-03-09, 19:02
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Maybe ezQuake should detect not optimal cfg (low fps, high ping and PL) and direct the nood to some site? I've seen a lot of noobs trying to run on FFA maps with 40 fps (don't know why) and low sense -- they were owned big time.
--
"Dag eats little Reloads for breakfast." (c) :-)
2007-03-09, 19:08
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sounds good

ALSO what i find very attractive is to implement: FIND OPTIMAL VIDEO SETTINGS FOR THIS COMPUTER or smth like that
2007-03-09, 19:13
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Empezar wrote:
the tutor idea won't work.

if you started playing a new (old?) game, would you want someone TUTORING you?

a friendly player giving hints is fine, but tutors?

If you can teach tennis, driving, then you can teach Quake.
2007-03-09, 19:26
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Empezar wrote:
that's more "a friendly player giving hints"

it's the label "tutor" and having a channel where people can like apply for a tutor that I don't think will be a great success

Uhm, as long as the tutor is someone who's friendly and can give constructive critiscism (swenglish? :p) i think it will be okey. I think the helpful-friend-approach is what mushi is thinking of here even, correct me if i'm wrong. Anything else would be foolish.
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2007-03-09, 20:51
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mushi the man with the plan.

sounds good but like sassa said, we need to actually do this. And although im not great at the game (compared to alto of players on these boards) I have a hell of alot to offer a noob or two if they wanted some 'coaching' - sounds better than tutoring

then you can call me sir chiuaua
bd
2007-03-12, 11:43
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glad to see some constructive replies.

allow me to clear some aspects:

*tutor
= coach. Something(exactly) how akeVader putted it. Some existing player giving hints about qw's mechanics - simple tactics for 1on1,2on2, 4on4.
one of problems in qw is the difficulty of the start - starting playing qw isnt easy.
Anyone with some experience can be a coach - as bandod aka chiuaua said. Example: Fix is currently coaching In a Blaze (bronze nqr). Vertigo helped Daltons some years back. Myself have "tutored" some players back in the old days. Sometimes all the new player's need is a bit of attention - some of their questions are real simple. And giving hints about a specific scenario would be easy for any player with some experience. This is where the tutor (coach) would merge with #qwhelp - delivering information for needed newbies. So it would be like this:
coach -> personal help (and teamplay help)
help.qw -> general help

Coaches could offer themselves to help - anyone with a little time can be . Newbies could ask for one.
in conclusion and imho: if I was a newbie and someone asked if I needed coaching, i would definitely say "hell yes!!"
and: All we need is some tutors from the start. im sure some ppl will join this specific effort when they realise how good it can be for noobs.


*new #rookie
this would serve rookie's practice needs. If players of the same skill level are in ONE channel, it will be easier for them to play together - read: without being raped. All rookies should be on the # with a couple of "admins" to provide general guidance - forwarding the rookies to the correct place on irc or web. In more qw-specific questions could be redirected to #qw.help. But the channel's primary goal is to put rookies together in one place.
In conclusion: creating the channel is easy. getting noobs there, its other history - see below


*FFA league
I would personally recommend making 2 leagues - 1) kenya ffa league for existing players and 2) ffa league for noobs

Before starting describing each league lemme say how do i plan to do this:
I've done a ffa league before. It consisted simply of starting a map, 20min, regular rules. When the map ended, i taked a screenshot and updated a previously-done excel sheet with the player's nicks and some statistics. Thanks to excel's math features, some numbers were generated - when it was done i had a nice looking excel sheet with player's statistics. And that's it. i posted somewhere on the web and players could watch his performance compared to others. This was a weekly league (sunday). No need to pre-join, the stats where generated according to the screenshot.
the combination of MVDSV and ktx/ktpro can provide more complete statistics tho - and automatically. the mvd_write_xml feature has great potentitial in leagues like these. I dunno exactly how this works tho. Ill ask, and then decide if I go for the old approach (excel sheet) or this new approach.

about the leagues: Main goal is to know the maps. for 1) kenya maps; for 2) more usual maps + some kenya later
1) can start right way - as soon as we (i) decide on the statistics stuff and the webspace is available
2) can start when the proper advertisement is done - see below.

lemme say 1) exists because of other qw-problem: some players accusing others of being narrow-minded. I can't disagree, and i sure agree that there are some really cool maps out there. this is a simple way to learn new maps.

*Advertisement
one word: timing!
when to mass-advertise?
-when next ezQ version is out;
-when we have a nice little text to send to news sites;
-when we have the 2) league ready

when these simple steps are done, we're ready to send news to gaming news sites. Who can do this and where? help here:
Ake Vader - EsReality
(...) more?



I hope this vision of mine is shared by some of you guys.
I only have one question: Is the 2) league enough to capture noobs? I don't think so. Imho we need to plan - now - what is going to happen after (some weeks later). noob FFA league can continue - what else? 2on2? might be good. wait for other nnql season? might be too late. or maybe not, depends on how much time we need to get this going.

*******************************************************
current needs:

someone with english skills to write the text. I know what info it should contain, just need someone to write it nicely.
ffa league stats system: mvd_xml? or excel sheet? ill study the best way
ffa league webspace (can be run here at the forum tho)


near-future needs:
ppl to post on gaming sites
some coaches
#rookie
decide what's next: 1on1 or 2on2? where? when?
*******************************************************

constructive comments please. If you can help about the needs contact me here or by mail: mushis@gmail.com
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2007-03-12, 12:50
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i think the tutor concept is a winners concept, although in small scale. take Suddendeath Project and now even Slackers II for example where the less skilled "newbs" get training from their tutors. in our case (sd.p) it worked out well, they really got into qw.

get up a new #chan where the newbs can hang out.

no one can do it all, but everyone can do something!
IRC went Discord -> join the chats @ discord.quake.world
2007-03-12, 12:52
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the beginners are already hanging out at #qwhelp were they get help with various problems.

Sd.p was an excellent way of showing how helping beginner can be a success.
2007-03-12, 13:39
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sassa wrote:
the beginners are already hanging out at #qwhelp were they get help with various problems.

And we love it!
2007-03-12, 14:25
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:p
2007-03-13, 11:19
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thanks for the positive feedback.

Sassa suggested running the league from the forum (this one) like king of kenya tuesday. Its acceptable.
I'll study the best way to get the stats working. If you can help, please reply: (reminder: i want post here stats about a 20min ffa map)
A skilled english-writer is required to write the text i mentioned before. where are you? 20min job

stuff must be ready when the time comes to launch this little project.
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2007-03-16, 18:28
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I think the core QW gameplay just isn't newbie friendly at all. There are exceptions but on the whole if newbies are playing TDM or 1v1 vs any veteran QWer they will get owned. The most popular forms of gameplay for newbies is pickup style where you can come and go at anytime. Think public CTF, clan arena, FFA, or co-op. FFA is still fairly popular in QW but ultimately it's an individual game. Team games are more popular overall but it doesn't seem as if any pickup team modes are popular in QW anymore.

Warsow runs pickup TDM(players join and leave when ever, and teams are frequently 4v3, etc) which actually is sort of fun in a non serious way. I think QW just needs more casual game modes for newbies to stay interested. Better co-op would be a big help but QW co-op sucks compared to say Doom 2. Simplified CTF could be good as well(no grapple or runes, Q3 style). The only communities really still chugging in North America are public CA, and public TF which are both pickup style.

The key is first getting the newbie to try the game. Then you need some newbie friendly modes(aka public pickup modes) to keep him interested while he slowly(without even noticing it really) builds up his skills. Eventually this newbie may or may not become a hardcore player. Without any large influx of newbies however you will never grow the hardcore community. Eventually even the most hardcore players will leave a stagnate or dwindling community.
2007-03-16, 18:57
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Imo the FFA servers seems very popular as there's always players on xs4all. There's also many mixes going on every now and then but the thing is that this may suck both for newbies and for the veteran players. The newbies gets frustrated when they can't find a weapon (even if their team is winning) and the veterans sigh when the newbie won't do what he's supposed to do (because he doesn't know any better).
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2007-03-16, 20:27
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simple CTF would be more fun than spammy FFA imho
god damn hippies >_<
2007-03-16, 20:28
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pg wrote:
I think the core QW gameplay just isn't newbie friendly at all. There are exceptions but on the whole if newbies are playing TDM or 1v1 vs any veteran QWer they will get owned. The most popular forms of gameplay for newbies is pickup style where you can come and go at anytime. Think public CTF, clan arena, FFA, or co-op. FFA is still fairly popular in QW but ultimately it's an individual game. Team games are more popular overall but it doesn't seem as if any pickup team modes are popular in QW anymore.

Warsow runs pickup TDM(players join and leave when ever, and teams are frequently 4v3, etc) which actually is sort of fun in a non serious way. I think QW just needs more casual game modes for newbies to stay interested. Better co-op would be a big help but QW co-op sucks compared to say Doom 2. Simplified CTF could be good as well(no grapple or runes, Q3 style). The only communities really still chugging in North America are public CA, and public TF which are both pickup style.

The key is first getting the newbie to try the game. Then you need some newbie friendly modes(aka public pickup modes) to keep him interested while he slowly(without even noticing it really) builds up his skills. Eventually this newbie may or may not become a hardcore player. Without any large influx of newbies however you will never grow the hardcore community. Eventually even the most hardcore players will leave a stagnate or dwindling community.

this is money!

CA, ctf, tf etc. DM is BRUTAL compared to the previous modes. I always liked CA and ctf since it was more casual.
2007-03-16, 21:26
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...and then they're stuck with CA, CTF, TF etc and then it doesn't matter. :p
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2007-03-16, 22:17
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no future for QW I believe, steady decline
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2007-03-16, 22:31
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it sure will be if people just sit on their asses doing nothing.
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2007-03-17, 05:59
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tell you what, I think everything has been done to make this game accessible for more people, it's just the core that makes this game so 'bad' for the newcommers, our scene is becoming older and some people hard it find to find some time to actually even play QW (like me, studies + work SUCKS), so I believe it'll fall all one day
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2007-03-17, 13:01
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it's not about finding time, it's about making time, you decide what you want to do in your spare time... if you wanna watch dr. phil, then watch dr. phil - if you want to play qw, then play qw - stop bitching about not having the time, it's all a matter of priority
2007-03-17, 13:26
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the last thing to want after not being home from 8 am to 9pm is to play QW
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2007-03-17, 15:36
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then what's all this talk about not having time?
2007-03-17, 22:54
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goqsane wrote:
no future for QW I believe, steady decline

word
2007-03-18, 19:54
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Ake Vader wrote:
...and then they're stuck with CA, CTF, TF etc and then it doesn't matter. :p

Not true. We've had many cross over players from CA, CTF, TF, FFA, etc into hardcore TDM/1v1 in North America. Generally it's the best players in those modes but it still happens quite a bit. AFAIK Fired was originally CAers for the most part and then started to play TDM/1v1 at a top level. WTG players were CTFers before they started to DM. Up2NoGood and some others were TFers. Those are just some of the most notable examples, but it happens more than you think.

QW is in a catch 22, it's biggest strength right now is also it's biggest problem. TDM/1v1 are so competitive that it keeps many players interested for a long time but breaking into this is very hard for newbies and generally no fun.
2007-03-19, 03:25
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every div1-4 player should bring 1+ friend to qw once per year and help him with everything, this way we could have big numbers
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