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This doesn't seem fair. You're splitting the votes of people who want 5 maps in half by having two 5-map categories. You're pairing the exciting cmt1b with the simplest, flattest and dullest map that no one gives a damn about, and you're not allowing for the fact that maybe people want to mix and match the 4 maps.

My vote would go for cmt1b and cmt3 if it was possible, and I think cmt4 is probably the most well known out of the 4.

Also, it's possible to vote for all 3 categories (I shall vote for the latter 2). Any chance of a poll fix? Maybe two polls? One a single-choice "5 maps or 3 maps" and another with multiple choices for all candidate maps?

Let's just replace e1m2 with cmt4. kthx.

I did think of that Stev even if it's not written there, but since we want this season to start off as soon as possible we don't really have time for more polls so we will keep an eye on how many votes the kenyas will get together before making any decisions. If we have enough time we might do another poll if the kenyas win. But notice, this is only if we have enough time! We also made this poll "open" to others than just clan leader who have one vote so the people who like kenyas but are in the "tb3 clans" can vote what they want to play.
So shortly, nothing promised here!

I still vote tb3 only, none of the suggested is fun/good/whatever enough

My opinion is that one day tournaments or one week might be better, for different maps labeled kenya should be had in the same way KTK was done and then the ones that are found good and liked should be used while those found disliked should be removed from any potential map pool forever. CMT3/4 has not been able to get played outside of tournaments even though they have been in map pools for various tournaments for a long time and should be added to the "never in a map pool again" list.

As I see it, only the maps people like and actually play a lot should be used, currently that is really dm2/3, with e1m2 at least being pracced some. If you guys want to play CMT3/4 then start playing them outside of tournaments instead of just shouting that you want them.

Obviously none of what I said can be implemented before this season and I do not speak on behalf of the eql admin team. This is only my opinion and has nothing to do with anyone else.

Stev wrote:

The problem with only accepting maps that are played often is that no one will play a map unless it is accepted. 4on4 qw is so utterly competition-driven these days that no one will ever learn a map unless tournament success depends on it. That's probably the #1 reason given to me when I ask someone why they don't want to learn another map.

Yeah, I have seen the same story a few times now; for example in Quake 3 when there was a mod switch for vq3 duel in 2005 (this is the most notable example I can currently think of). This was because arQon (CPMA lead dev) was pushing CPMA to CPL as he was on the CPL committee - none of duelling community in vq3 wanted to switch away from OSP, they were all extremely against it. But what could they do? The only major tournament at the time was forcing them all to make the switch because no-one would want to play a non-competition standard.

The example with CPL led to many trolls on esreality who were mainly cpm players using the idiotic argument of, "if you like OSP so much, just play it". This is just not how a competitively driven community works, as Stev so rightly pointed out. It is the leagues or tournament organisations that need to build the infrastructure and standard for the community and players. That argument should be rendered void, as it is non-sensical in the current context.

It is the tier one players that lead the rest of the competitive community, people want to aspire to the top, that is what it is about; on top of them having the most influence with tournament organisations/leagues. It may be asking a lot but it is important that the top tier maintain the integrity expected of the top tier, to help qw grow or achieve what they see best, not only in community but in the meta-game if that is even possible any more.

ps. stev is wise and knows bestestest.

Last edited by ddk (06 Oct 2009 05:42:45)

Voted tb3+cmt1b+midcit, simply because the other two choices are getting a little too repetitive.

It should be TB3 tuament not some random kenya maps. At lest if noobs need cmt4 should be added as a 4th map.  and decider should be by random pick than. And if we add some shity maps maybe we can play without powerups and deathmath 3? omg! why we dont get one more player? lets play 5v5 and we should add arbiters that can give us "red card" than will be muth more fun 5v4 games? eh... this world going on bad side one more again...

Last edited by avenger (06 Oct 2009 08:46:09)

Hooraytio wrote:

the system in nqr was great. let clans decide to play tb3 or tb3+custommaps. this way most ppl will get satisfied

Yes, except that kenya defenders want to force everyone to play a map they like.

zappater wrote:

As I see it, only the maps people like and actually play a lot should be used, currently that is really dm2/3, with e1m2 at least being pracced some. If you guys want to play CMT3/4 then start playing them outside of tournaments instead of just shouting that you want them.

Playing maps that are not included in tournaments is a waste of good praccing time. On the other hand maps that I hate like e1m2 I must still prac because they are in the tournament.

Seems like most understood me wrong, might be cause I was tired when I wrote that. What I was trying to say is, that I do not have a problem with using new maps in a tournament (even though I would prefer if they were first tested outside a tournament setting) but CMT3/4 have been in EQL for a long time and despite that they have not been getting widely accepted. I voted for cmt1b/midcit for this reason, but I do not think these maps need more than one chance.

What I am getting tired of is people like Stev who can sit here on the forum shouting for these maps to be used in competition but can't take the time to go out and prac them, as it is when CMT3/4 was in EQL no one was praccing them! I don't give a shit what maps are a part of EQL as long as they are actively played.

Last edited by zappater (06 Oct 2009 13:12:12)

zappater wrote:

What I am getting tired of is people like Stev who can sit here on the forum shouting for these maps to be used in competition but can't take the time to go out and prac them, as it is when CMT3/4 was in EQL no one was praccing them! I don't give a shit what maps are a part of EQL as long as they are actively played.

This is just not true. We (a2k) used to prac cmt3/cmt4 just about as much as other maps (or e2m2tdm for that mater), those seasons they were included in eql/nqr.

On a side note, I think that it is not important which 2maps are added (all these 4 maps is good enough), time spent playing on the map is what gives the map quality.
The thing to maybe consider about map layout is that the macro-strategy should not be easily copied from one map to another, like dm3 to cmt3)

Poll is pointless, less-skilled teams will do better on smaller map pool, as they more easily get they teamplay somehow working for 3 maps than on 5. High-skilled teams are not afraid of this, but they make up only minority of the scene -> only minority will logically vote for 5 maps pool.

Suggestion to allow per-team choice of tb3/tb5 map pool is pointless. No team will opt-in for having to prac on 5 maps and therefore having proportionally less time to prac tb3 compared to teams who have chosen tb3.

Use your fucking brains for once.

The only reasonable poll is to ask players which non-tb3 maps they consider best for 4on4 and use that (top 2 winners) for tb5 map pool for all.

Map pools must be decided 1 year ahead or something so that teams know exactly which maps are the ones to practice and have time to do it. Or? Isn't EQL about to start? Seems unfair to ask now. Unless we actually do want randomness.

I don't see the problem that so many people have with other maps being allowed. If I recall correctly, NQR started out as a 4-4 ladder that allowed every clan to choose the map they wanted from tb3 + exmx maps. Ofcourse the format was a bit different but I don't remember that many people having so much problems with it especially since you had smackdown at the same time which was a pure tb3 league.

My point is that it was still fun playing those crazy maps for a lot of people and you could specialize your team on some map to even win a map against a better clan. I would like to see such a format return but I guess I am the only one. In my opinion you could force a decider to always be tb3. This way you get alot of great matches and some variety. Qw 4-4 is becoming very shallow with now even people saying that e1m2 has to be removed? Blasphemy...

There are so many fun exmx maps but because people feel safe on dm3 they just want to play that. I would like to play any map that my opponent chooses. You know it before you will play them and you can try that map out and think about some strategy. That's what we did back then and it was a nice challenge to beat that lesser clan overall, that was still better at some map that they had specialized in. Eventually the better team will still always win.

EDIT: When I say I would like to see that format return I am not talking about the ladder, I mean the choose any homemap you want because it is your clan's homemap

Also I would like to add that I think it is useless to add only 1 or 2 maps to TB3. I think you have to choose a direction: it either has to be a hardcore TB3 only league, or a hardcore 4-4 league with a homemap of your choice albeit a decider on tb3 (because of lack of some other kind of system to choose decider).

Last edited by blixem (06 Oct 2009 15:03:28)

I'm not sure what I want. I voted for tb3 + cmt1 and midcit while I don't even know midcit. Atleast I don't think I know it.

I like CMT3, allthough the entire map looks the same. Same problem with cmt1. I don't like cmt4 at all.
Tb3 is a 100% certain good mappool and sometimes I think it's best to keep it that way.

Blixem has a brilliant idea tho. I never played back in the days when you could pick any 4n4 map you wanted, but I do remember watching some demos and liking it. I did play ctf on all the maps that were possible and that was great fun. Specialising your team on a map is rewarding imo. Weaker teams get a chance to beat better teams because they specialized their homemap.
Decider is decided by both teams dropping a tb3 map and playing the remaining one.

In reply to blAze:

I think you are sketching a wrong image. First of all, it is only rarely that it will happen that team A rapes team B and then team B rapes team A. And besides, even if that would happen and we have a tight decider what does it matter? It can happen in duels as well and they are not less interesting.

There are a few possibilities to consider. Team A is much better than Team B: what makes two games where team A rapes team B on TB3 maps so much more interesting than one TB3 map where A rapes B, one where B rapes A on whatever map and some arbitrary decider? I think in any case my option would be more interesting than yours. The other possibility is that A rapes B on a TB3 map and then also wins a tight one on B's homemap. In this case my option is also more interesting than yours. And then we have the last possibility that team A rapes B on a TB3 map and A also rapes B on their specialized exmx homemap. Well, in that case it doesn't matter that much but in any case team B has a greater chance of playing a good game vs the much better team A than on a TB3 map.

If team A is equal more or less to team B: in this case it can go any way, also on TB3 only maps. There are so many possibilities associated with this case but all of them are interesting in my opinion.

I do agree that it doesn't make sense if you just count frags but we decide games on maps and I like to stick to that.

blixem wrote:

First of all, it is only rarely that it will happen that team A rapes team B and then team B rapes team A. And besides, even if that would happen and we have a tight decider what does it matter? It can happen in duels as well and they are not less interesting.

I recall tVS winning most equal teams in e3m7 with big margins and even winning massively better teams sometimes and similarily getting owned in "wind tunnels" (what a great tp map!). It matters because it increases the chances that luck affects the final score because the whole game basically comes down to just one map after the default wins in the home maps.

AFAIK duel tournaments are played with relatively small, well known map pools.

Remember also that a clan would play and prac their chosen home map in every game so there is no way around the fact that all teams prac their home map a lot more than any other team. With a small map pool it's difficult to prac any single map significantly more than other teams.

Is this really interesting and exciting to players and specs?

Last edited by blAze (06 Oct 2009 18:46:38)

1tsinen wrote:

#17
There was a small flaw in the NQR system that I came to think about... or should we say, remembered from back then. Teams didn't choose kenyas because they would lose to a couple of clans who were kenya "experts" and therefor they had a smaller chance to get into playoffs.

I agree with this and I also agree that it's a problem. However, we had looked at previous polls (NQR/EQL) and saw that the majority voted for tb3. So the alternative - if we had let a normal poll (tb3 vs tb3+kenya) decide - would have been the same: People would have majorly voted for tb3 and clans that enjoy Kenya would have been in the same shit.

So yeah, our version (with the "extended map-pool" that a clan could be in or not) might not have been perfect, but it seemed like a good way not to piss off the majority while simultaneously still letting a few clans play kenya from time to time. It's not perfect, but it seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Is this really interesting and exciting to players and specs?

http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/images/1749.jpg

No that is not that interesting. But what you are doing is making it look like ALL of the games played on some freaky homemap will end like this and from my experience in NQR1 and 2 that is certainly not the case. Also, like every clan out there will start to find some freakmap? It's just the idea, that alot of maps that we all used to play and some clans like to play are prohibited which I find stupid.

On the other hand, why do I hear all these voices that want so much balancing? Isn't it the hardcore aspect of qw that makes us love it? Being worse than someone else gets punished, and gets punished hard. If SSC is that good at their homemap and the others are that bad, okay thats what happens. TVS can get almost the same kind of score on dm2 vs a clan with the same kind of experience as kala on that map (ignoring the suicides).

EDIT:

I even liked that custom map tournament with all the cmt maps. Although some of them are frustrating I like playing the different maps. I haven't played for 4 years or more and since I came back 3 weeks ago I haven't played anything other than dm3 for three weeks already, except for 2 dm2's maybe. Even though I really love the map, this is not the way to go! So yes I agree with LethalWiz as well.

Last edited by blixem (06 Oct 2009 19:45:40)