QuakeWorld.nu Forum

yes

that's why its good for kenya, its for people who want to try new things.
What exactly makes no sense? It makes perfect sense to try introducing new things to the part of community that already enjoys the new maps, I would even enjoy playing a different mod each weak, making this kenya^4.

Last edited by NeFuRii (19 Jun 2007 12:50:38)

In my opinion it is quite right time to see a tournament in this mode. I'd also like pm_airstep be enabled very much.

Last edited by JohnNy_cz (20 Jun 2007 23:59:00)

NeFurii wrote:

1) increase power of shotgun/double shotgun
2) increase speeed and power of nails
3) substitute nailgun with railgun

JohnNy_cz wrote:

In my opinion it is quite right time to see a tournament in this mode. I'd also like pm_airstep be enabled very much.

There is already a game and community with all these features - it's called Challenge Promode Arena.

i like some parts of jawnmode.

However i dont like the faster nails for duels, as it wouldnt be as good bunny-blocker on lets say dm6,dm4

On maps with large open areas (cmt4,cmt3 comes to mind) faster nails could make these weapons more usefull.

Ake Vader wrote:

NeFurii wrote:

1) increase power of shotgun/double shotgun
2) increase speeed and power of nails
3) substitute nailgun with railgun

JohnNy_cz wrote:

In my opinion it is quite right time to see a tournament in this mode. I'd also like pm_airstep be enabled very much.

There is already a game and community with all these features - it's called Challenge Promode Arena.

..and they have much more than qw to offer, ctf for example

molgrum wrote:

Better GA would make stuff more interesting as well, as you can actually gain something from taking the time to snatch it before attacking, I know that on 2on2 DM6 you don't usually wait for the GA because it gives too little for the 20 second wait.

GA is still important now though as if you grab it, you can survive one full direct rocket hit compared to if you didn't have it. It's the small things that adds up to a bigger picture.

good, good, but I want projectiles teleporting like the thing you showed us on your server.
it's quite a game play difference, but a fucking load of fun

molgrum wrote:

Your xy-speed is preserved through teleporters

In this point your mod tries to go into too many directions. You already have 1) remove randomness 2) increase power of existing items like *nailgun, green armor and now you are adding completely new skill. That's ok, but now I don't know what are you plans with your mod, you think that it will become new standard or that will co-exist with existing mods? In my opinion if you add this, it will never become a new standard, because it adds completely new skill and if you put a switch/limit on it, noone will use the switch/limit.
About fallbunny - take a deep breath and force only one solution on it imho, otherwise the discussions about one of the most unimportant gameplay features will never end.

molgrum wrote:

I'm probably going to add a "weighted spawn-system" too that basically makes sure you spawn evenly on all spawns

That sentence doesn't say absolutely anything.
In every good spawn system it has to be easy to understand
- how does the algorithm work in detail,
- what are the probabilities for any scenario in the game and
- how it affects the gameplay

In the current spawn system:
- the algorithm is easy to understand, howeever noone knows how all those spawn modes work
- the probabilities are easy to calculate because the random function is very well known (I'm talking about the maths side of it, that's important)
- it is known how it affects the gameplay because it's used for many years

In the current system you also do spawn evenly on all spawns! - yes you do, because that's how probability works.

What I'm trying to say - when I've made my own "smart spawn point probabilities" system, the algorithm was simple and the probabilities of some scenarios were simple too. But I'm not able to answer for example "What is the probability, that a player will spawn on point A twich as much then on point B."
You can answer that for current spawn system, it's some not hard maths, but if you start designing your algorithm wrongly, you will not be able to answer such questions.

JohnNy_cz wrote:

In this point your mod tries to go into too many directions. You already have 1) remove randomness 2) increase power of existing items like *nailgun, green armor and now you are adding completely new skill. That's ok, but now I don't know what are you plans with your mod, you think that it will become new standard or that will co-exist with existing mods? In my opinion if you add this, it will never become a new standard, because it adds completely new skill and if you put a switch/limit on it, noone will use the switch/limit.
About fallbunny - take a deep breath and force only one solution on it imho, otherwise the discussions about one of the most unimportant gameplay features will never end.

The plans for now is to try it in FTK a bit and see how the response is, and either:
1) Place it into rules, or
2) Make a different league

I'm thinking that FFA in particular would be fine with this mode, because of the nature of FFA. 1on1 etc however is harder and requires more thought and planning for it to work out, but I'm hoping that it will make its way into KTK eventually. For now I'm adding these things as experiments to see how it works out and advertise it so people know that the mode exists.

JohnNy_cz wrote:

That sentence doesn't say absolutely anything.
In every good spawn system it has to be easy to understand
- how does the algorithm work in detail,
- what are the probabilities for any scenario in the game and
- how it affects the gameplay

In the current spawn system:
- the algorithm is easy to understand, howeever noone knows how all those spawn modes work
- the probabilities are easy to calculate because the random function is very well known (I'm talking about the maths side of it, that's important)
- it is known how it affects the gameplay because it's used for many years

In the current system you also do spawn evenly on all spawns! - yes you do, because that's how probability works.

What I'm trying to say - when I've made my own "smart spawn point probabilities" system, the algorithm was simple and the probabilities of some scenarios were simple too. But I'm not able to answer for example "What is the probability, that a player will spawn on point A twich as much then on point B."
You can answer that for current spawn system, it's some not hard maths, but if you start designing your algorithm wrongly, you will not be able to answer such questions.

The reasons why I didn't explain it further was:
* It's not implemented yet
* I didn't think anyone would care about details
* I was tired

But here goes:

Each player gets their own set of spawn point weights, for example for 6 spawn points of the map, you (individually) get a list of them all set to 1:
1 1 1 1 1 1

Now when you're going to spawn, it checks all points for newly spawned players (every new spawnmodel does this btw) and sets NUMSPOTS to how many free spots are available.
Let's say all spots are free for our first spawn, it now creates a random number RND = [0..NUMSPOTS-1] = [0..6-1] = [0..5]
Let's say it picks 3.14.
Now the algorithm picks a spot based on this simplified algorithm:

Try SPOT #1: Subtract SPOT #1's weight from RND, is RND <= 0?
If so, pick this spot, or else repeat for SPOT #2, SPOT #3, etc etc...

SPOT = SPOT #1;
while (RND >= 0)
{
    RND = RND - SPOT_WEIGHT;
   
    BESTSPOT = SPOT;
    SPOT = SPOT->NEXT;
}

We can see that in the example it will do this:
Subtract SPOT #1's weight (1) and get 2.14 (not <= 0 so don't pick SPOT #1)
Subtract SPOT #2's weight (1) and get 1.14 (not <= 0 so don't pick SPOT #2)
Subtract SPOT #3's weight (1) and get 0.14 (not <= 0 so don't pick SPOT #3)
Subtract SPOT #4's weight (1) and get -0.86 (this is <= 0 so pick SPOT #4).
SPOT #4 is picked!

Now it takes the weight of spot #4, divides it by 2 (this was your idea Johnny ), and distributes the rest amongst the other spots, like so:
1.1 1.1 1.1 0.5 1.1 1.1

So the sum is always the number of spawn points on the map, that's the point of weights.

And now the process is done, we spawn! Now when the next time you spawn comes, you'll have less probability to spawn at SPOT #4 and more probability to spawn on the other spots (equal probability in this example).
After a while it could look like this:
0.1 0.6 0.8 1.9 2.4 0.2

Which again, means that you have a low spawn-count on SPOT #5, and therefore have a higher probability to spawn there in the future.

So Johnny, you say that I can't tell the probability of spawning here? I beg to differ:
0.1 / 6 ~= 1.7%
0.6 / 6 = 10.0%
0.8 / 6 ~= 13.3%
1.9 / 6 ~= 31.7%
2.4 / 6 = 40.0%
0.2 / 6 ~= 3.3%

Which brings -> 1.7% 10.0% 13.3% 31.7% 40.0% 3.3%

Remark: The numbers are actually floats, so they're not limited to just one decimal, I just use it for simplification.

This was written kinda hasty, hope it's not too messy to grasp...

Last edited by molgrum (24 Jun 2007 17:57:55)

No.

I agree with Kalma. Why delete all the random fun

To be honest I the changes don't seem to affect the gameplay too much. Only way I could notice that jawnmode was used on FTK3 was the Jawnmode On text at countdown. I would still like to play with original setting in the future (that includes fallbunny on).

I'm a long-time proponent of "unfairpacks":  drop the current weapon if it was being fired at the time of death, otherwise drop nothing.

This is exactly what happens when shotgun scripts are used.

I think he was talking about FFA mod willgurth and not 4on4

Happy to see some ideas and comments here!

It's possible to make jawnmode act different in different game modes, this is kinda my plan. For example, visible packs could either be enabled for DMM3 and disabled for DMM1, or enabled for FFA, and disabled for all other types. Give some suggestions to what you think should be enabled/disabled when a certain variable/mode/gametype is set.
I agree fully with you Tonik that there should be a solution to weaponscripts, fairpacks was one candidate, you have another which I must say sounds better in tactical games (4on4). In FFA I could implement something that drops ALL weapons and one ammopack, what do you think?

BTW, the airstep code seems much nicer now so it will probably be inserted as enabled in jawnmode. Would be cool if vb could look here as well, the creator of jawnmode, but he's nowhere to be found.

I'd like some clarification:

"JawnMode is a few tweaks to QW to promote additional skills and remove randomness that negates existing skills."

Please tell me why the following has been changed:

NG: Nail speed increased from 1000 to 1800.
SNG: Nail speed increased from 1000 to 1800.
Lavaballs: Removed in JawnMode.
Dynamic lights: No pent glow on spawn in DMM4.

How does the above reduce randomness, and why change those things?

and the biggie:

GA: Protection now 50% (1:1), was 30%
RA: Protection now 75% (1:3), was 80%
YA: Protection now 67% (1:2), was 60%

why?

Apollyon:

I agree that speed is not everything, but it's a major part of what makes QW a great game which makes it very important
Airstep will cap your speed with 16% every time you hit a step, try it out on aerowalk for example where you'll have to walk up the big stairs unless you RJ. I think it worked out great on head-shot so until this time I can't say I don't like it.
The weapons that are better are NG/SNG (or just SNG since noone uses NG at all) that are almost double the velocity, and SSG that has 2 extra pellets (+8 dmg). But I think that the reason you die more is because RA is nerfed and SNG much faster. SSG is a bit better but I don't think it makes much difference? Might also be the non-randomness which makes aiming a 100% factor if you hit or not.
I've thought about the RA nerfing and it might be better to make ALL armors stronger than before (not just GA/YA)? What do you think, would sure put alot of weight on them as if there wasn't any already!

Up2:

In regular QW...
Lavaballs(tm) are totally random (except for the origin).
Dynamic lights in DMM4 are useless.
Nailgun speed is too slow.
GA is too weak to bother about most of the time.

Play a game in FTK before violating our fine electrical messaging board systems my good sir!

Last edited by molgrum (06 Jul 2007 00:06:01)

Up2nOgOoD[ROCK] wrote:

seems to me all the decisions about the speed of nails and armor protection %'s have been made by one person for the whole community, my good sir.

My point was that this does not decrease randomness, so why change it.

those weren't changed because of randomness.. they were changed because of uselessness

NG & SNG are practically useless, so is the GA.. vb wanted to make his mod fair

........?

what about race mode?