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2012-05-06, 15:22
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How bad of an impact does 400 or 800 dpi have, really?

I'm using a Logitech g400, 1000hz (no problem with my computer), and approx 20cm/360.

I just recenty realized that I had been playing on 400dpi for a while and it works really good. Then I talked to Renzo and he said some about that it might not register the smallest of moves if I use 400dpi. This made me change to 800 dpi (still same sensitivity though, I adjusted it of course) and everything feels "shaky". Somehow, 400dpi feels way more smooth than 800dpi for me, even though the cm/360 is exactly the same.

How bad is actually to use 400dpi? The mouse can handle 3600, but really... I find 400 the smoothest but people still advise me not to use it.

Would 400dpi hurt my game, or is it just a matter of opinion? Is it just about what feels the best for you, or is it really bad to use 400?

I'm torn between using 400 or 800 anyway, but 400 feels so much better :-( 400 feels so much more "precise", while 800 feels sloppy or something.

Yours,
Andeh

(Edited 2012-05-06, 15:23)
2012-05-06, 15:43
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Do you have the version without snapto? : ]
If you dont you can adjust all you want.. I always go by the principle of higest possible sens without interpolation, havent tried the g400 but up to recently only the deathadder at 1800 tracks correctly, above this, it interpolates, probably the g400 does too.

Try to only adjust the dpi. Dont touch the sens. ; ]

Save that wrist!
2012-05-06, 15:51
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How could I adjust the dpi but not the sens if I want to keep 20cm/360?
2012-05-06, 16:03
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Quote:

How bad is actually to use 400dpi? The mouse can handle 3600, but really... I find 400 the smoothest but people still advise me not to use it.


Depending on the map, you might not be able to aim properly to certain places. Take dm2 low-rl button for example, it is very hard (or even impossible if you have high enough sensitivity) to aim properly from that button to the spawn area floor near SSG.

Quote:

Would 400dpi hurt my game, or is it just a matter of opinion? Is it just about what feels the best for you, or is it really bad to use 400?

I'm torn between using 400 or 800 anyway, but 400 feels so much better :-( 400 feels so much more "precise", while 800 feels sloppy or something.


If you can live with it, and the fact that your cursor (crosshair) might not move at all when you move your mouse very little, then be happy about it. 400dpi is anything but more precise than 800dpi using the same apparent sensitity.

Quote:

How could I adjust the dpi but not the sens if I want to keep 20cm/360?

There is no way, I guess zzuper wanted you to increase your sensitivity...
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2012-05-06, 17:16
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Yeah that's what you tell me Renzo... perhaps the fact that my sensitivity isn't very high makes the difference? Because it feels so much smoother and works better for me on this plastic mousepad.

I can easily do the lowbutton-spawn area shot, even when moving the mouse around (I guess has to do with the low sensitivity that I use)

I just can't make up my mind -_-
2012-05-06, 17:23
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Perhaps it's that when using 800dpi, the sensitivity is just SLIGHTLY off? It feels very different anyway, but when trying a 360 I end up on the same amount of centimetres.

Is there any way to change to 800 dpi but still keep the EXACT same sensitivity? Like "yeah one notch in the windows mouse settings equals 200dpi" or so?

Yours,
Andeh
2012-05-06, 18:13
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Quote:

perhaps the fact that my sensitivity isn't very high makes the difference?


Yes, the lower the sensitivity the less the cursor can move, that's why people with high sensitivity can benefit from high DPI a lot more than people with low sensitivity. 20cm/360 is somewhat below average sens, but it's still not "low" in a sense.

Quote:

Perhaps it's that when using 800dpi, the sensitivity is just SLIGHTLY off? It feels very different anyway, but when trying a 360 I end up on the same amount of centimetres.

Is there any way to change to 800 dpi but still keep the EXACT same sensitivity? Like "yeah one notch in the windows mouse settings equals 200dpi" or so?


Yes. If your mouse has exact 400dpi and exact 800dpi, then the calculus is very easy. A difference of mm or two can't be noticed, but if it's off by some centimeters, it will be noticeable.

Also, the more DPI you have, the more "sluggish" the mouse will feel because of the increased resolution/accuracy. For example 800dpi can feel really sharp compared to 3200dpi, just because 3200dpi registers and moves the cursor very slightly even with the smallest possible mouse movement, while 800dpi will always "jump" cursor a bigger distance with the smallest movement to the mouse that can actually move your cursor.
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2012-05-07, 12:04
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Quote:
Yes. If your mouse has exact 400dpi and exact 800dpi, then the calculus is very easy. A difference of mm or two can't be noticed, but if it's off by some centimeters, it will be noticeable.


Is there somewhere I can read of a good way to calculate it? Or could you explain? Something that is not sitting here with a ruler and trying to get the same CM.

Also, which sensitivity is better to adjust? Windows sensitivity or quake sensitivity?

Thanks for the help!
2012-05-07, 12:58
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The formula is really easy one, as it can be calculated linear.

old dpi / new dpi * old sensitivity = new sensitivity


For example moving from 800dpi sensitivity 10 to 3200dpi and keeping the same apparent sensitivity:

800 / 3200 * 10 = 2.5


Or the other way around, moving from 800dpi sensitivity 10 to 400dpi:

800 / 400 * 10 = 20


Never touch windows sensitivity from the default 6/11. Besides, it should not matter at all if you are using raw input or direct input, unless something is working as an input wrapper (like logitech software, that CAN and WILL cause problems)

(Edited 2012-05-07, 13:01)
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2012-05-07, 13:48
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Thank you! Cool formula, very useful
2012-05-07, 13:52
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Hmm, the formula seems quite off.

I did 400/800 x 5 = 2,5. So my sensitivity was lowered from 5 to 2,5 in-game, however the result turned out as a decrease of like... 3cm or so. Quite huge decrease in sensitivity. :X
2012-05-07, 15:01
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2012-05-07, 15:03
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If your mouse feels jerky or not-smooth on 800 dpi then perhaps it is broken anyway? I mean modern mice support up to 3000-4000 dpi, 800 is not something where it should become not-smooth.

Also, the way I set sensitivity with any mouse, any game and any dpi is this: I enter the game, move my mouse from the very left border of the mouse pad to the very right border of the mouse pad. If I do less than 4.75 turns in the game itself, I know I need to raise my sensitivity, and vice-versa for the other case. After at most 5 adjustments my settings are always perfect. Works very well with any game, mouse, m_yaw or dpi settings.
2012-05-07, 15:21
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Well JohnNy_cz, it could be just me or the fact that it feels "different" than 400dpi.

@Paradoks: I don't quite understand that thingy, but this is a screenshot of my settings anyway: http://i.imgur.com/IfcYi.jpg

What does this tell you?

Also, using that formula on that page, changing to 800 dpi, and then lowering sensitivity to 2.5, it shows the same CM/360, when in real life, 800dpi and 2.5 sensitivity is like 3 cm less O_o.

I'm confused.

(Edited 2012-05-07, 15:23)
2012-05-07, 15:27
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Quote:
Hmm, the formula seems quite off.

But it's not, at all. Either you have acceleration on your mouse, or the DPIs you are setting are not what they are supposed to be, or something else is interfering.

For example with my latest mouse (cm spawn with firmware 0.62) it has 800/1600/4000dpi steps and the sensitivies for the mouse are 8/4/1.6 are exact, with my testing methodology at least (involves the sensor moving from outside the mousepad to outside the mousepad, not taking reading from table surface at all while doing that).
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2012-05-07, 15:39
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Well yeah of course I understand that the formula isn't off, but it is for me... Not sure why. The software I'm using (Logitech Gaming Software 8.20) doesn't have sensitivity settings, only DPI settings. I don't know what else could be interfering...
2012-05-07, 16:12
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I'd strongly advice against any kind of logitech software installed on your computer at any time. Good products, but they sure are good at making software that can make their products look shit also.
2012-05-07, 17:19
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Feb 2012
Just recently changed my sensitivity back to what I'm used to (as it now appears) and have exactly the same feeling as you, Andeh. I don't remember what my sensitivity was back in the ancient times I've played netquake with a ball mouse, but during the years of playing other games I settled for a relatively low sens (~25-30cm or even more/360). From many different tests with different games I came to the conclusion that mid/low cm/360 like mine works best with low dpi. For me there's really no point in using more than 400 cpi if you're coordinating mouse movement with more than your wrist and fingers. I get what you say about the "feeling" with higher CPI - yeah, it's different. Higher CPI means the sensor will react more to mouse movement. Even when you set the exact same cm/360 ratio you had with lower CPI you'll still get a very different experience because your aim will be more responsive to small moves. I guess if your sens is high it's generally a good idea to regulate your sens with higher CPI then just higher sensitivity setting (pixel skipping and all that). If you're using the finger or claw grip that may be very helpful as even the smallest shake of your fingers will register. However, if you're used to fast and wide hand sweeps across the mousepad, such precision isn't really necessary and is more likely to be detrimental then helpful to your aim. Therefore, lower CPI will seem more stable to you, as you won't have to make micro-corrections all the time as with higher CPI.
Then again, it's all about the physiology of your wrist/hand/fingers .
“If I wanted you to understand it, I would have explained it better.” (c) Johan Cruyff
2012-05-08, 07:13
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I have not read this post all way from top to end but anyway...

DPI/CPI means how many counts in one inc (2.54cm) so with:

400 DPI the smallest move you can do with mouse is 0,00635cm and that is 0,0635 millimetters or 63,5 micrometters.

800 DPI, the smallest move is 0,003175cm = 0,03175mm

5000 DPI, the smallest move is 0,000508cm = 0,00508mm

Right? Correct me if I am wrong

So if you look about these, there should not be no matter which dpi you use if you just calculate the new sensitivity. I have tried high DPI with several mouses and I can tell the difference is huge with all. So what I am thinking that there is a bug or some other unknown issue that makes the mouse so shitty with high DPI.

I think my smallest ammount of moving mouse is around one millimetter. I have high friction clothed pad and about 10cm/360. I'm using 1000 DPI but wonder if my pad really has that much count points in a one inc

(Edited 2012-05-08, 08:02)
2012-05-08, 14:22
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Andeh wrote:

did 400/800 x 5 = 2,5. So my sensitivity was lowered from 5 to 2,5


exactly
you moved from 400 to 800 dpi, which is 2x more dpi.
so, it makes sense that you reduce sensitivity to half.

Renzo's formula is correct!
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2012-05-08, 14:23
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Rikoll, if that measurement is correct, there's no way one can detect "jerkiness" and blame it on the high dpi read...
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2012-05-08, 16:46
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Nov 2010
I can't tell apart 400 and 800 on my g400 but I have no drivers for it installed and never had. Logitech's drivers are a bloatware and I'd suggest you get rid of it.
2012-05-08, 17:54
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Apr 2007
im at 1800dpi 12 sens

i wonder about the algorithm used with the sense.. maybe some dev could help us there : ]
we want rawest possible input ofc
2012-05-08, 21:22
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Hmm... Without Logitech drivers, how do I set DPI/hz?
2012-05-08, 21:58
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I have a question: What are the correct values to get 1:1 pixel movement in QuakeWorld ?

In Windows 6/11 (default) gives that, but QuakeWorld depends on 4 variables:

m_pitch
m_yaw
sensitivity
fov

Minimum fov allowed is 10, so i assume that using sensitivity +1 with m_pitch and m_yaw default (0.022) for each 10 fov value should do 1:1 pixel movement with 400 dpi.
So for fov 100 sensitivity 10, fov 120 sensitivity 12, but im just assuming since i don't know how scaling works in QW.

If anyone could clear, thanks.

Well, actually, i guess it also depends on resolution and dpi wich i mentioned 400 dpi for m_pitch m_yaw default

(Edited 2012-05-09, 14:04)
2012-05-09, 14:56
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For "rawest possible input" start with m_input 3.

There is no special tricks with sensitivity and yaw/pitch, they are simply multiplied for the final sensitivity. In original QW this was different due to a bug.

I don't know how to calculate 1:1 pixel movement, but you need to add resolution to the equation. And DPI would have nothing to do with it. QW doesn't "know" what DPI you are using.
2012-05-09, 16:33
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Resolution doesn't come into it. The world isn't composed of pixels, they are just a visual representation. You can easily move your crosshair less distance than a pixel covers in 320x240, but the entire screen will still show completely new pixels.
2012-05-09, 18:58
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True.

With small enough fov like 10 though you can sort of measure in pixels. With my settings for example it skips a few pixels. I guess this is what MatriX was getting at.
2012-05-10, 19:37
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Nov 2010
With +/- buttons on your mouse. Any other steps are calculated by software and I find them unnecessary. Though without LGS you're losing ability to bind anything on mouse7 or 8 and ability to set custom polling rate easily. I bealive you can change it by modifying hidfusb.sys as it is with WMO and such but I've stick with 1kHz so that's not a problem for me too. The decision's yours.
How do I quote-reply on this new forum btw?
2012-11-12, 00:25
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Nov 2012
Andeh wrote:
Hmm... Without Logitech drivers, how do I set DPI/hz?

I've got the same mouse.
By default settings the second lowest stance of the dpi switcher should be 800dpi on g400.
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