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2011-12-11, 14:35
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123 posts

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Mar 2006
I don't mean to be alarmist but reading this http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql14/matches/187#Played I got such a deja vu feeling to back when the NA QW scene was dying. After NQR NA Season 2 I wanted to get a draft league going for NA QW but the top guys didn't want in. Why should they? They've won, they are the best, they worked their asses off to get good. I couldn't blame them but also when they refused I quit QW too. What was the point of me playing as a player? There was hardly any 4v4 TDM competition left (which is what I played QW for mostly) and to "win" I would have to play a lot and then somehow politically manuver my way onto one of the best teams in order to join them for a chance. I played QW for fun, I was never as serious or dedicated as the top guys. Def deserved to dominate like he did for a long time, he put in INSANE hours of playing QW.

Eventually it just becomes a simple choice however, do you want the QW scene to live or die? You can win and be alone or you can keep playing the game you love with others. What is more important? If you look at NA QW now all the past top players have quit and are not playing anymore. Did they just care about competition and winning or did they play for fun? I don't know. I've mainly played for fun and I still play QW now and then but 1000x less than I used to. I mostly play other games now. QW lost most of it's magic for me when the TDM scene died here. Competition here had always been mostly a farce with AG then Boss absolutely dominating everyone. I played because I enjoyed mix matches and at times could out frag even the top players in those but vs the best teams I'd get raped (unless I was a stand in, then I'd rape with them). I always had the most fun in close matches regardless if the game was sloppy and low skilled overall or a tight high skill match. Also when I lose a close match I say to myself, "with more practice or a little luck I could have won" and I don't feel bad about it and want to play more because of that. When I get raped I say, "why am I even bothering?" then think I could have been having fun playing Skyrim or Dead Island, ahah.

I do agree you need a winning attitude to compete and get better. QW is a very hard game to play. I think even average skill players in QW are tough competitors compared to most games. Don't think just because not everyone can be the best that people aren't putting in some decent efforts. By simple numbers alone only a few can stand at the top. Even in draft leagues there are teams at the top and bottom.

If you look at professional sports they have all sorts of arcane rules to ensure there is some fairness. They do this because they understand competition is the key to their success. It is nice to have giant powerful teams clash vs each other but if the scale tips too far things go badly. I just feel like I'm watching another train wreck as the EU QW scene dies for the same reasons the NA QW scene died. What's more important a few people "winning" or the health of the scene?

The problem really just goes down to scene size. If you have 1 million players there will be lots of great competition but if it's just a few guys fighting (like QW now) gaps occur and lead to even more people getting disinterested. Many years ago EU QW had around 100 clans. If there were still 100 clans this discussion would not be happening. The NA QW scene was always a lot smaller but I most enjoyed the old days when clans were usually led by one good player. After a few years go by all the good players had left their old teams to band together on "allstar" teams totally raping their old friends. I miss unknown match outcomes, I miss competition, I miss new players, and I miss playing QW TDM.
2011-12-11, 15:51
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Jan 2006
I know one thing for sure - this situation will not have an ideal solution. More then ever this needs admins who know what they are doing, how much harm they will do to certain part of the scene at what costs - how much benefit for other part of the scene.

Also, this needs proper discussions, where everyone is aware that his recipe isn't The Best One, but only maybe "the least bad". Every idea should be presented with all its pros and cons, because if you only mention the pros, the admins will see the cons and will think you are trying to manipulate them into something and will more likely reject your idea. As this community is very grown up, I think it is capable of having such a discussion and reach at least some conclusion eventually. Again, not an ideal one, but at least the "least bad" one.
2011-12-11, 20:40
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Apr 2006
In my opinion the dying process has started a long time ago, and there are many reasons. The most important one that comes into my mind is the age. And I'm not referring to the age of the game itself but the players'. Probably the average player is 25-35 now and at that age people simply aren't that easily motivated to "win an online league". Let alone the time one can afford to spend on a virtual "society" that the QW scene is. When I was 16, the game meant a lot to me. I couldn't wait for game days in UKCL (sat/sun) to watch the games and play mine, and I was also looking forward to organized prac days and play some rounds of ffa at nights. All with the background to improve and get more out of the game - and maybe "make" it onto some popular news site mentioning my or my team's name.
But that was the past, how do we motivate players? And most importantly, WHO does it? There still are a lot of people who spend much time on the game, the scene and around it. That can't be appreciated enough. But - and I'm only speaking for myself here - it's not enough to get me seriously motivated and trying to reach for more. I enjoy to play with my mates a game here and there and occasionally a few rounds of ffa and duels, but that's it and I don't care for the results.

Who still feels the attraction and the thrill which used to be in the air before a "big game" (i.e. a final)?
2011-12-11, 23:39
News Writer
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Jan 2006
Coming from NA where the best players made one clan and dominated for years, I think blowout games will eventually lead to the death of the scene. Why waste 20-60mins of your time playing if you can't even hold a RL? That's just not fun and I'd rather not play.

I think that adding rules to promote more competition and general fairness in the divisions will help. As mentioned before, many leagues, like the NBA, have these rules already. You can't have 4 all stars on one team, can't have div1 in div3 unless all div3 clans have 1 div3 or 2 div2 players, etc. I think it's more fun for everyone when a finals match comes down to the last minute, instead of "well gg" at around 15mins =\
2011-12-11, 23:42
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nba have rules that u cant have 4 stars in one team??? i find that hard to believe, aren't they all stars in nba? =D
ready!
2011-12-12, 00:12
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Sep 2006
One of the most debated things during the NBA lockout was the competitive balance. Mainly, they dont want others to create another "miami-like" team where they gathered 3 superstars. But practically its very hard to avoid yet David Stern has recently rejected Chris Paul deal to Lakers
2011-12-12, 01:33
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Feb 2006
Some American leagues have salary budget caps, and minimum wage limit. So you can't hire all the most expensive players in one team. I don't think the main reason is competitive balance, but owners' greed. With the limited salary costs, you can actually make nice profit when you win something. Instead of spending all income to get best players possible.
2011-12-12, 16:51
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Mar 2006
Up2nOgOoD[ROCK wrote:
']Coming from NA where the best players made one clan and dominated for years, I think blowout games will eventually lead to the death of the scene. Why waste 20-60mins of your time playing if you can't even hold a RL? That's just not fun and I'd rather not play.

I am actually amazed our TDM scene last so long. In NQR NA 1 and 2 there were what 8-12 teams? Shortly there after I think there was a random teams tourney but I don't know much about that as I had left the scene by then. I do know there hasn't been a real 4v4 TDM league since. We are doing a draft league now with 7 teams so we'll have to see how that works out.

I always felt that the AG/Boss guys cared more about winning, even if it killed the scene, which happened due to their dominance. That's why I'm worried about the EU scene. What's the point of winning and dominating div1 if soon no one is even left to play against? EU QW has always been larger than NA QW but once you break down into the division system it's comparable. We used to had 8-12 teams around NQR NA 1 and 2 that's more than is in div1 EQL and comparable to div2/div3 in size.

Up2nOgOoD[ROCK wrote:
']I think that adding rules to promote more competition and general fairness in the divisions will help. As mentioned before, many leagues, like the NBA, have these rules already. You can't have 4 all stars on one team, can't have div1 in div3 unless all div3 clans have 1 div3 or 2 div2 players, etc. I think it's more fun for everyone when a finals match comes down to the last minute, instead of "well gg" at around 15mins =\

I agree. Draft league or bust! Just look at the recent SR vs fOm final. Without Murdoc fOm beats SR rather comfortably, over 100 frag difference each map. With Murdoc previously SR had gotten as close as possible to beating fOm. Individual players make huge differences on teams. Clans are about the meta game of politics. I remember one of the AG lineups from the Smackdown era that was so deep they could have probably fielded 3 full teams that would have wiped the floor with the 2nd best clan in NA. That makes both good and bad players quit playing. The good players don't play because they join the best then get benched but it helps their team win by denying talent to the competition. With a small scene it's a zero sum game for talent.

Kalma wrote:
Some American leagues have salary budget caps, and minimum wage limit. So you can't hire all the most expensive players in one team. I don't think the main reason is competitive balance, but owners' greed. With the limited salary costs, you can actually make nice profit when you win something. Instead of spending all income to get best players possible.

I do agree it is probably owners greed but not in the way you think. Who wants to watch blow outs over and over? Is that entertaining? Tight matches are much more fun to watch because the outcome is unknown. It doesn't matter if the skill level is a bit lower or not. It is something to watch when you have a once in a decade player like Michael Jordan dominating but it's another when it's just because your team has 5 superstars and the other team has 1 or none.
2011-12-12, 19:35
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Jan 2006
interesting posts
i doubt that anyone disagrees that a scene dies when there's no competition left. As someone said above, one player makes a huuge difference. With less and less players, the skill gap is larger - which was what killed NA QW TDM.

Something gotta change. I agree with more strict rules, maybe some other kind of tournament, with different rules. Other problem, that has been increasing over the years, imo, is the importance/power of one weapon - the weapon that once you master, all the others are worthless. lowering its power changes the gameplay? yes. But imo its NEEDED to increase competition, and ultimately delay the game's death.

But that's other subject. i really think div 1 players do have a decisive role on the outcome of this whole thing - as what happened in NA. Please, div1'ers, make the best choices.
Hugs,
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2011-12-15, 18:59
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Feb 2006
I think there are valid points made in those match comments.
To some degree i agree that the new f0m lineup is a div1 killer, I remember talking with ParadokS before this EQL season, about them splitting SR into SR1 and SR2 with equally strong lineups, however when the f0m lineup was announced, this idea was dropped.

The question really is, do we want to see a few top games or do we want to see a lot of equally skilled teams playing eachother? I don't know what will make for the most interesting matches, but a draft league is an ok idea, and maybe we can even get to see a top game there as well. If by the end of the season two All-Star teams can play a show match, that could be fun as well. If we had more time at QHLAN, I would have set up such a game, but we didn't.

However, I like the concept of clans rather than mix-teams... If we in the end only have a draft league, I'm not sure how interesting that will be to follow after a while, it might still be fun to play tho.
2011-12-16, 06:30
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Jan 1970
mushi wrote:
i really think div 1 players do have a decisive role on the outcome of this whole thing - as what happened in NA. Please, div1'ers, make the best choices.
Hugs,

What got the div1's up there where they unarguably belong, is not humility on this playfield. Asking them to dig earth below themselves is asking too much. Good admins propably have more power over how this whole issue turns out. Im not holding my breath down here.

Personally i dont care rat's ass what happens to div1. It is just out there, you know? I respect the skills they can present but they really only care about themselves. And seeing that through this draft-dialogue, i lost all respect to high-div, with some few exceptions and reservations. I thank SR for bringing their views out there, saying what needed to be said - kudos for that when most other hig-div remained silent. Still the whole issue gave birth to the gigantic ass-hats on them and i care rats ass now of the whole lot.

After coming to that conclusion and reading:
zalon wrote:
The question really is, do we want to see a few top games or do we want to see a lot of equally skilled teams playing eachother?

I instantly felt QW has really come to the edge now. Who wants to watch well known assholes playing their div1-top-game. Who wants to watch draft teams with known div1-assholes in them, knowing that they hate it and never put their heart in it?
What makes or breaks it for ME, in the end, is the people in the team. I have zero interest for fuck-ups, play they div1 or lead draft-teams.
2011-12-16, 10:12
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Jan 2006
old wrote:
I instantly felt QW has really come to the edge now. Who wants to watch well known assholes playing their div1-top-game. Who wants to watch draft teams with known div1-assholes in them, knowing that they hate it and never put their heart in it?

The players who signup for the draft league will obviously be motivated to play it, otherwise why would they even signup? There's still a competitive aspect even in a mixed league. Seriously, you seem to make a lot of assumptions regarding players you only argued with on an internet forum. Not every div1 player agrees with what has been decided regarding the rules of the draft league, you know?

Zalon wrote:
To some degree i agree that the new f0m lineup is a div1 killer, I remember talking with ParadokS before this EQL season, about them splitting SR into SR1 and SR2 with equally strong lineups, however when the f0m lineup was announced, this idea was dropped.

I seem to hear this exact thing being repeated over and over from various people. Yet after tVS disbanded Slackers showed no signs of willingness to give up their lineup of 4 div0 players. It's not like they came and talked to us regarding our lineup before the season, I'm sure if Milton knocked on their door they would gladly open it for him in a heartbeat, lol. So all this talk about us picking up the best players are just nonsense. Sure, we got Xantom and Milton who were obviously dominating toplevel QW, Xantom quit before playoffs weakening our team, but the difference is we got 4 really motivated players that gives everything in these kind of games. But we'll see what happens in EQL pro, I'm pretty positive we'll sign up for it, but maybe recruit some new talent. This team was originally just a mixteam to give Slackers a challenge, that's the difference, we could abandon this team tomorrow and create new teams, Slackers is something different though, they have history, they are a team that has to be on the top and winning - I don't think ParadokS would part ways with Murdoc and Zero even if we decided to quit fOm, yeah guess what team would dominate div1 then...
2011-12-16, 12:28
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Mar 2008
Creating a draft tournament without including everyone who wants in on it is an obvious fail for its purpose.

I highly doubt SR were ever gonna split their core into two teams. Paradoks was well aware that we were trying to gather 4-5 competetive players, and I would be very surprised if he never told his teammates about this. I know this because I told him this in May, after being invited to join SR. SR acting all precious suddenly by saying "we were gonna split into two teams, but then f0m created this monster team" is hilarious, specially after no sign up wanting to splitting up after tVS quit for EQL13. (btw, just to clarify: I don't want ANY team break up just because "theyre too good for the highest level of QW".

Im also really curious about this "monster factor". Basically, milton and xantom played 5 maps together. Group games vs SR and group games vs blt. We won big vs blt, and the group games vs Slackers was the closest one ever. Most of the time it has been nitram, lac and me (old fusion) + milton or xantom. So where do you want to draw the monster line here? I guess fusion was fine as long as we had a lot of semi motivated players and never had a stable lineup, and you could beat us on a regular basis. But as soon as we go out of that limbo, and create a team consisting of 4 motivated and active players, and starting to beat you on a regular level (i guess this last point is where it got too much for you?), it is too much, and a monster, one of the reasons div1 dies and what not. Not a single spark of fighting spirit! Heck, even your arguably best player and most active player throughout many seasons now, ditches you and shows the whole scene a middle finger mid season, right before the play offs, for some admin decision that wouldn't make a damn difference in the outcome for you. I know you claim this isn't the sole reason, but at least this seeme to be the reason that triggered his reaction.

Getting partly blamed for destoying EQL DIV1, the highest level of QW TDM the scene has to offer atm, by playing "too good" QW, is very unreasonable and unfair towards us. No matter how many time you split the best team, nothing will change. The problem is that the avarage age of the player base increase by a year for every year that goes by. No matter how much you dislike the div1 concept, the players involved with it, the admins or whatever, it is not, nor will it ever be, a team thats willing to put in the effort trying to best the current champions in a tournament fault for ruining it.

Special note to Old: You seem to only think about yourself as well. Pulling the ego argument off here after a statement like "Personally i dont care rat's ass what happens to div1. It is just out there, you know?" is just too cute than deserve anything else than a pat on your head. You also seem to talk warm about SR regarding this draft tournament, but you're well aware that most of the players there (at least para, zero and murdoc) has already said they want it exclusive div1-2 only?

Special note to pg: "Eventually it just becomes a simple choice however, do you want the QW scene to live or die? You can win and be alone or you can keep playing the game you love with others. What is more important?" Don't you think the rest of us that don't share your toughts also wants QW to live? Do you think the only thing we think about is winning? Do you think you are blessed with superior knowledge on how to tackle this issue? If we don't follow your advise QW will die? You self rightous twat. The whole essence of this thread stinks.

Most of you seems unaware that it is a small miracle such an old game like this have even have had a competitve environment for so long.
2011-12-16, 17:27
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Mar 2006
Last night in NA there were two 4v4 TDM matches going on at the same time. You know the last time that happened here? I'd venture a guess about 6 years ago! You know why people are coming back and playing TDM again? It's simple because there is a draft league going on here now. It's a world of difference and much more fair which leads to fun competition. A clan TDM league wouldn't even work here, there would be no interest and there would be 1-2 stacked teams dominating.

Rikoll wrote:
Creating a draft tournament without including everyone who wants in on it is an obvious fail for its purpose.

Inherently false but I'm not saying you need include people who don't know what quad is, or don't use binds, etc. The IDL draft league lets anyone sign up and we've had the worst play alongside with the best. It has worked. It is not always pretty or simple but it works. If div1 guys can't play with div3 bad play then I don't know what to say. Even div0 players make HUGE fuck ups except they occur much less often.

Rikoll wrote:
Don't you think the rest of us that don't share your toughts also wants QW to live? Do you think the only thing we think about is winning? Do you think you are blessed with superior knowledge on how to tackle this issue? If we don't follow your advise QW will die? You self rightous twat. The whole essence of this thread stinks.

Actually I believe some elite div1 guys would rather quit than play in a draft league with their "lessers". If players from the best div1 teams boycott a draft league then yes I would say those people do care about winning more then QW living. I find it rather sad I'm being insulted because I care enough to try and help with solid ideas. Stay classy Rikoll! You know I do have some unique experience I bet no one else has in the QW scene. First I saw the NA QW scene die and I've played and followed in the IDL draft league for 10 seasons. I also ran various NA QW leagues throughout the years.

I understand why you are mad however, you've finally managed to rig the game in your favor by getting a hugely stacked team in div1 and now people want to break it up. You were fighting against other stacked teams for years without a chance and now your time has come but people are realizing how fucked up it all is. There is a reason pro sports don't work with a system anything like clans.

Rikoll wrote:
Most of you seems unaware that it is a small miracle such an old game like this have even have had a competitve environment for so long.

Not really. QW is a unique beautiful game. It deserves to have an even larger competitive scene than it does.
2011-12-16, 17:58
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pg wrote:
Inherently false but I'm not saying you need include people who don't know what quad is, or don't use binds, etc. The IDL draft league lets anyone sign up and we've had the worst play alongside with the best. It has worked. It is not always pretty or simple but it works. If div1 guys can't play with div3 bad play then I don't know what to say. Even div0 players make HUGE fuck ups except they occur much less often.

Did you even understand what I said at all?

pg wrote:
I understand why you are mad however, you've finally managed to rig the game in your favor by getting a hugely stacked team in div1 and now people want to break it up. You were fighting against other stacked teams for years without a chance and now your time has come but people are realizing how fucked up it all is. There is a reason pro sports don't work with a system anything like clans.

Wrong again. I care a lot about this scene, and want it to thrive. I think the base of having clans rather than random teams is a very, very strong plus for making this scene interesting. I just have a very different oppinion than you on what's best for the scene in the long run. So when a guy like you, barely playing the game at all, with this know-it-all attitude, claims that what I find interesting about this scene is killing it, of course I get provoked. Belive it or not, me being pro-teams has nothing to do with me winning EQL this season. Your whole thread reeks of assumptions and know-it-all attitudes, when you're basically yet just another guy speaking on behalf for himself pretending to speak for the whole.
2011-12-16, 18:34
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Mar 2006
It's easy to insult someone and belittle them with ad hominem attacks especially when you lack any ideas of substance to offer up on your own. What's your idea for the scene Rikoll? SR and fOm alone in div1 next season? Sounds great probably for the best so everyone else can have some fun in div2 and div3. A div1/div2 draft league seems like the only thing the elites will agree to. God forbid they play with div3 people.

Was the QHLan draft seen as a failure? Did elite players not have fun in it? What div skill were the players involved? It looked a hell of a lot more entertaining and interesting to me than div1 has been in a LONG time. I guess we just see competition differently then. Your idea of competition is a few stacked teams dominating div1 then meeting in playoffs. I find knowing who the best teams are before the season even starts to be a waste of everyone's time and effort. Why even play div1 such as this season? In the end there wasn't even a proper final because murdoc disappeared but SR was still so strong even without him they still made it to the finals. In a draft league if one of your starters left you at playoffs you won't be strong enough to still make finals still.
2011-12-16, 18:38
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Jan 2006
pg wrote:
It's easy to insult someone and belittle them with ad hominem attacks especially when you lack any ideas of substance to offer up on your own. What's your idea for the scene Rikoll? SR and fOm alone in div1 next season? Sounds great probably for the best so everyone else can have some fun in div2 and div3. A div1/div2 draft league seems like the only thing the elites will agree to. God forbid they play with div3 people.

Was the QHLan draft seen as a failure? Did elite players not have fun in it? What div skill were the players involved? It looked a hell of a lot more entertaining and interesting to me than div1 has been in a LONG time. I guess we just see competition differently then. Your idea of competition is a few stacked teams dominating div1 then meeting in playoffs. I find knowing who the best teams are before the season even starts to be a waste of everyone's time and effort. Why even play div1 such as this season? In the end there wasn't even a proper final because murdoc disappeared but SR was still so strong even without him they still made it to the finals. In a draft league if one of your starters left you at playoffs you won't be strong enough to still make finals still.

Well pg, I see your point, but truth is, and shall I rather say, based on my own experience there will always be other teams waiting to continue to dominate even after the current best team disbands. As far as I know, normal leagues will still continue and this Draft league will be run as a test season at first. What do you think would happen if fOm called it quits? Perhaps the same thing that happened when tVS quit after EQL 12? Yeah, go look at the results from Slackers in EQL 13...or I can give you other examples from the past 10 years of the same things happening.
2011-12-16, 19:14
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Apr 2006
An additional draft league is a good idea, no doubt about that. There are quite a lot of players who want to play more regularly (you see them mixing every night) than their actual teams enable them to. However, I believe the pinnacle of TDM is a competitive STRUCTURED environment which we usually refer to as a "clan". No matter if they're "mixed superteams" or ones with historical background such as SR, SSC, FU etc. Splitting clans in order to "save" QW is just wrong in my opinion. An admin should never decide whether a team is too good. I mean, how many "bad" decisions were done throughout the years once the whole division concept had been introduced and teams were misplaced? And now, we're discussing whether it's up to admins to decide whether a team in its current state is not only to strong for div x but too strong to participate in general?
2011-12-16, 19:28
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Apr 2006
pg, you certainly raise some interesting points and you have the experiences from your own scene that had "died" a long time ago and you want to contribute in a positive way. You also express your thoughts in a non-offense and non-smart arse way that I don't understand how anyone could possibly be insulted by them. But nonetheless, I too believe the draft league is not the solution to all our problems. I have a problem with all that "qw is dying so we have to do everything to get people into it and make it as comfortable as possible"-thinking. Please take a look at some of the issues we've had in the near past. Faking players who couldn't be punished severely because "it would be bad for the game as 2 clans might die", shittalk about WOs, FOM's final position, Murdoc leaving and so many more I forgot. We've reached a state in which potential players can blackmail the established ones into what is doable and what is not. Many longtimers and regularly are taken for granted and can freely be ignored, but for potential newcomers, newbies etc. everything can be done to let them have a good time; fair/equal divisions, interesting games to spec, equal gaming conditions such as pings, no allowance for teams too strong in the division - only if they don't leave the game.

Personally, I prefer a decent clan league such as Smackdown or EQL that leaves much freedom to the clans. It's the players who need to be motivated to WANT to be at the top, it's the players who need to WANT to rape FOM very badly next season. Slackers should be playing day and night and recruiting potential top players to get revenge in next EQL. Instead we're talking about splitting them and make "div 1 more interesting"...maybe it's only me, but I don't find it interesting at all if admins decide who can play whom in each div to create an interesting final.
2011-12-16, 21:24
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Jan 2006
Actually we already did this once, split SR up into 2 equal strong div1 teams, but shortly after, where valla was in one of those teams, he decided to leave and the project fell apart.
ready!
2011-12-16, 22:03
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Jan 2009
Well no we won't make one big draft league with 30 teams playing eachother and everyone's allowed to play, there's so many levels of fail in that suggestion, mostly in that all the "div1-assholes" and other skilled players won't be willing to play when they get stuck with players who are really bad, atleast this is my explanation and opinion on why it would never work, it's not a fact.

Anyway the plan is allready to make the draft have a 'major' and a 'minor' league.
Basically people sign up to the draft, the major teams captains pick players for the respective teams, then the captains of the minor league teams do a draft of those unsigned to the majors or those who only signed up for the minors.
I also plan to let each 'major' league team to have a 'minor' league team affiliate, so we force a sense of "family" on these teams so that for example the 'Paras nubs' could share tactics with the 'rkds pimps', can use players from both teams for pracs if a player is missing, internals etc. ofcourse this is all limited to how much the 2 teams wish to cooperate.
If a player in minors is improving and the major league team captain notices him in the pracs he's used him etc it will hopefully help in getting people get drafted into the majors for the next season.


Now how the draft league actually plays out noone knows yet but the hating against it should stop untill it's actually tried.
If it fails it fails, so be it, but atleast we are trying to create something that we believe could help the qw scene.
If people get to play actively and "tight" matches in a draft league it will hopefully make eql more active aswell and maybe less players will whine about having to play some rape games because "atleast it goes good for me in the draft league".
2011-12-16, 22:09
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Apr 2007
It's amazing to see how you again and again are trying to put some sort of blame on your rivals whenever you loose, Dave.
When tVS dominated, they should have split up because they were "too good" by winning versus you. Now FOM should split up because we are "too strong"? Hilarious.

And now blaming a specific team is not enough for you, but you blame specific players? With your subjective and misleading statements, which often is outright lies, as well?

Way to go!!

This is just getting more and more pathetic. Just stop your nonsense shit-talking. It will do nothing good to the scene. Put your energy into something constructive instead.
/lac
2011-12-16, 22:44
Administrator
2058 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
andy wrote:
[...]
Personally, I prefer a decent clan league such as Smackdown or EQL that leaves much freedom to the clans. It's the players who need to be motivated to WANT to be at the top, it's the players who need to WANT to rape FOM very badly next season. Slackers should be playing day and night and recruiting potential top players to get revenge in next EQL. Instead we're talking about splitting them and make "div 1 more interesting"...maybe it's only me, but I don't find it interesting at all if admins decide who can play whom in each div to create an interesting final.

I think you're just stating what everyone else in the community think and feel, but we have identified that the situation is currently not like this and the question is if it's even possible to get that feeling back without degrading the level of play for a while? Do you have any ideas?

One flaw with the latest EQL seasons, except for EQLro, has been the lack of really good consistent coverage, and for that we are all to blame. If that kind of attention and magic was put back on things, i think it would be more attractive to at least try to compete with the best.

Maybe also a big league like EQL should be made more exclusive, i.e. arranged once a year instead of having two or even three different instances in a 12 month period. The rest of the time could be filled up with other kind of tournaments, such as the proposed draft league for 4on4.

Edit: Also please mind the tone during discussion. I realize it's a hot topic but we're all involved in the same game and we all want it to succeed. Calling people stupid and similar won't help any progress. Peace!
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2011-12-16, 23:16
Member
210 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Ake Vader wrote:
I think you're just stating what everyone else in the community think and feel, but we have identified that the situation is currently not like this and the question is if it's even possible to get that feeling back without degrading the level of play for a while? Do you have any ideas?

Frankly, I have no ideas As I said in an earlier post, I simply think this has many reasons and the most important one being the age of people and the natural focus on other, "more important" things but Quake. We're lacking the seriousness, only few players are left who want to invest many resources to become the best - or improve at all. Maybe there isn't hope.

You said one thing about the lack of coverage during the last seasons. This is (in my opinion) also caused by disinterest. Some years ago people couldn't wait to be the first to spread some news or initiate new discussions. Also, you used to be "proud" if you were a spectator in a famous demo of an important game. Everyone had his own little goals and gathered joy of the game by different means (map creation, speed running, posting news, watching demos etc.). How much of that is left?

The draft league suggestion has its charm to those who would like to play a little more (maybe with currently inactive team mates), but if "we" rely solely on it, it's killing the standard leagues and tryining to keep a game alive that might have some action left. There still are like 30 clans around, it's not like there are only 3-5 in Europe. To some it seems as if one of the main points is the domination of one team...please tell/show me, when that hasn't been the case in QW history? I can't remember when there were 3 or more teams who could be considered "the best" at the same time. Please don't pull the emergency line too early

It's great that people have thoughts on this topic and there always is some discussion going on. Some blame the strict rules towards some things, some blame the few maps that are played, there are reasons for everything. But again, I think the main reason for the diminishing interest in most things QW and especially the seriousness is the age and adolescene of the people involved in it.
2011-12-16, 23:26
Administrator
1859 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
valla wrote:
I seem to hear this exact thing being repeated over and over from various people.

Rikoll wrote:
Getting partly blamed for destoying EQL DIV1, the highest level of QW TDM the scene has to offer atm, by playing "too good" QW, is very unreasonable and unfair towards us.

Just so you two don't get me wrong, I never said that I blamed f0m for killing div1, I just said that the new f0m lineup is kind of a div1 killer, but if you weren't here... Slackers would be in the same situation. But as I also said, what it really comes down to is what will make the most interesting league to play in and follow, 1-3 top teams or 8 equally skilled teams? I think the final of any tournament should feature the best possible teams, and not just some made up teams to even things out.

Rikoll wrote:
I think the base of having clans rather than random teams is a very, very strong plus for making this scene interesting.

I agree, totally... The history within the scene is often what makes me look forward to a given match. You don't get this with a draft league, or if the top teams split up.

However, maybe it would be good to see Slackers and f0m break up, we might have 1-2 seasons that won't be that interesting in regards to seeing the best play possible. But it might also bring some new stars into the top div1, like it happened in the past. Remember that the current Slackers team, except for ParadokS, is made up of players they took in for their SR2 project.

Rikoll wrote:
Most of you seems unaware that it is a small miracle such an old game like this have even have had a competitve environment for so long.

I would rather call it a lot of hard work by a lot of people in the scene.
2011-12-17, 02:20
Administrator
181 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Zalon wrote:
I would rather call it a lot of hard work by a lot of people in the scene during.

Huge respect to everybody that's been extra involved with development, map making, commentating, server-hosting, administration and whatnot over the years.

I'm looking forward to this new league, sounds like a fun concept.
2011-12-17, 11:19
Member
11 posts

Registered:
Oct 2010
I want to make "some" remarks

Reallife sports are alive because of constant influx of new blood [young players].
For something to be alive it needs a blood flow...

First, "Team Deathmatch" in one game is not the same as "Team Deathmatch" in another game.

...
...
...

I think a big part of "the problem" is Team Deathmatch itself - how it is AT THE MOMENT in Quake...

I look to TDM with different eyes then TDM players [In a distant past I was a div1 CTF-ONLY player in different Quakes]
So maybe I can offer a different viewpoint overlooked by TDM players. [?]

...
...
...

Again, I think a big part of "the problem" is Team Deathmatch itself.

TDM... Only once you are trained in it and experienced, it IS the most interesting DM thing... but not for a clueless observer [young new 'gamer'].

If you compare it with real life sports, TDM in quake is very very abstract.
There is no clear GOAL, Not instantly obervable for new people.
I think even CTF, where there is a clear goal, the original 2 flag version, is still to abstract. [your flag must be in base to score enemy flag]

Take soccer: Two teams, a ball, and two GOALs... Simplicity.

Second thing is all the resource management...

There are no things like armor areas to control, quad area to control, important weapon locations to control, in real life sports...

In soccer, for example: what is important is the ball and the goal. With it comes technique [ball handling]... aiming skill.
Then there is defense, midfield and offense.

If I translate the team game Soccer to Quake, I could create something like this [I come back on TDM later] :

- two teams
- 2 home bases [goal like area]
- some object you must pickup, and bring it into the enemy base to score... [the player with the object would glow bright, ot something like that]
- a playing field : different maps... [red-homebase, midfield with 'object', blue-homebase]
- no quad, no runes/techs.powerups, weaponstay. [and all weapons in the map twice at different locations, so a team can not deny heavy weapons]
- just ammo and health
- ball handling becomes : movement skill and aim skill.

Game play that will emerge is simple to grasp for new people after a few minutes they started to watch...
Some guy takes the object, starts to glow, his teammates try help him by killing oppononents who want to shoot the glowing dude... who loses the object
when he got fragged... other dude takes it and manages to reach enemy homebase [goal area]... opponents try to defend their home base by taking on the
glowing dude and his team mates who just entered the base... big fight, they fail the glowing dude runs into the capture area and SCORES... 1-0 in caps.

The object will soon respawn at midfield... and the teams position again to get the object at midfield [clear goal...], then the game flow will go towards
one the the teams bases... etc...

Is it so much different then resource-management ?

No. the focus changes, but you still need some movement skill and aim skill... and communication skill [give info on enemy locations/headings]
The focus change, the objectives are more clear : the capture object, and the goal areas...
You still need movement skill and aiming skill to get the object, keep it, manouvre trough the playing field [map], defend your teammate who has it, and
defend your homebase when the opponent has the cap-object.

It is easier to understand for new gamers [fresh blood...]

For a game to continue it needs a influx of new players, really new players: young ones: new generations.
Like in real life competitions... say soccer competitions. There are the clubs, which have an influx of young new players year in year out.
And the soccer competition goes on and on forever...

...
...
...

Back to TDM, Team Deathmatch... 4v4

So, I think, unless you find a way to make TDM clearer for the CLUELESS observer [who is watching match movies / maybe demos, but needs client]...

You will never have a steady influx of new players : to get the competiton/league stable.

TDM... If not using commentary in EVERY game : The observer sHOULD see LIVE information on screen about what is going on: maybe like :

- "red armor respawn: in nn seconds, the teams might try and control the area"
- "team red has 2 heavy weapons [RL, RL] team blue none..."
- "Quad Damage respawn in nn seconds, the teams might try and control the area to get the Quad and do some damage with it"
- "Team blue just lost a member with a rocket launcher, losing an advantage"
- "Player X of team blue is making lots of damage, making it easier for his teammates to get frags..."
...
... are just some things that come to mind.
...

It will never show the more advanced team tactics, but at least "the game" will become more clear for clueless observers [potential new players].
A lot of the "abstractness" of TDM and its resource management is then clarified.
Of course, players who are spectating and already know what is going on could disable all that info... could... but it should be on by default.

If movies appear on youtube with such "live info" in it... or you push such movies on you tube... you will hold the attention of the viewer much longer...
I think

...
...
...

Well, those were my viewpoints, maybe something usefull is in it.

Personally, Personally... for myself, I don't care really because TDM is not my thing [maybe I should try one day ?]
But Quake is in my blood because I spawned in it in '96
And imo... the QW style of gameplay is what "eSports" should be about really. Fast and furious.
2011-12-17, 11:19
Administrator
380 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
old wrote:
Personally i dont care rat's ass what happens to div1

For players over here in EU that want to play in leagues, what happens to div1 is important irrespective of whether they harbour ambitions to play in div1 themselves or not. The reason is that for league administrators to be be motivated there needs to be that flagship competition level, the top players battling it out, the hype and drama it generates. Rightly or wrongly a 'mediocre' competution which may still be fun to play in won't attract the same level of interest and in the longer term only the most truly motivated admins would continue with a league that has little spectator interest and dwindling player support. Anyone who has checked /qtvusers during EQL finals for different divisions can tell you that there is more interest in div1 than div2 despite the fact that there are far fewer players in div1 compared to div2.

In fact back as my days as an admin for the Smackdown tournament I saw first hand the feelings of some players who felt that moving towards a hierarchical divisional structure was the way forward (and I'm not saying they were wrong). If you have a divisional structure, you have to have a div1 in some form or another.
2011-12-17, 13:18
Administrator
326 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Also bare in mind that one project alone is not suppose to be the end all of the QW scene... the draft project is _ONE_ out of what should be multiple tournaments.

It's only a compliment, an interesting side show that might intice div2/low div1 players to play together with the top div1 players and improve and have fun in a small very competetive tournament.

Who said we are gonna cancel EQL? Or not have a smackdown like tournament for real clans as well. So far we have put all our eggs in one EQL basket if you will. And everytime it starts to wobble we adjust and correct and try to do what we can that no eggs leave.

But there are many ways you can have your eggs in a delicious way... fried, cooked, poached, scrambled, hell even raw. So whether or not the draft will happen, look at it as an additional event for the scene, and not the answers to all our prayers.
ready!
2011-12-18, 02:18
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
SLU99ISH wrote:
TDM... If not using commentary in EVERY game : The observer sHOULD see LIVE information on screen about what is going on: maybe like :

- "red armor respawn: in nn seconds, the teams might try and control the area"
- "team red has 2 heavy weapons [RL, RL] team blue none..."
- "Quad Damage respawn in nn seconds, the teams might try and control the area to get the Quad and do some damage with it"
- "Team blue just lost a member with a rocket launcher, losing an advantage"
- "Player X of team blue is making lots of damage, making it easier for his teammates to get frags..."
...
... are just some things that come to mind.
...

Except for the damage thing, this is all available in hud elements when speccing via QTV or viewing mvds. For TB3 you can see a minimap too. Maybe it should be easier to set up.
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