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2011-10-23, 09:44
Member
792 posts

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Jan 1970
wow PG, thats pretty cool!
2011-10-24, 19:17
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137 posts

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Sep 2006
Sounds good, but mayby skip the teeny whiny div0 players ;-) They would want to win too much and i dont like beeing considered as a walking ammopack when i might pack a rl/lg already.

Nah, id like this

When do we start?
2011-11-07, 01:54
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63 posts

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Jan 2009
Well yea, adopting an american style league wouldn't be too outrageous at this moment.
An american haxball league I play in has a similar system to what pg depicted.
We would have to start it off with choosing captains then everybody else entering the draft and the captains going in order to choose their players.
Now here's where it will differ a bit, after the season each team would be allowed to keep 4 players (perhaps only 3 players would be best for parity though), so all the other players would have to reenter the draft for next season and the teams that did worse in the draft this season would be able to draft players first, thus hopefully improving their team for next season.

And I've also thought of a EQL PRO DRAFT tournament, with a fixed schedule like the EQL PRO tournament, and where you would put basically div1 + high end div2 players and then assort captains and do a draft.
Should be quite competitive aswell as on a quite high level, I think alot of people dread the fact of going from playing in their top div1 team to playing with some div3 random.
This way should provide some fun competitive games and help raising the level of div2 players.
If you have a player pool like I suggested the teams could look something like murdoc,lethalwiz,od,kapo or bps,votary,rkd,ddk.
While it's not a top SR/fom/tvs/sd lineup we would be able to get several teams, and be able to play on a fairly high level.


EDIT:
List of 48 players in the pool for a EQL PRO DRAFT league/tournament that are fairly consistent in being around and active (tks c88 aside because of div1 fail this season). So 8 teams with 6 players in each, or add a little bit more div2 talent and get it up to 10-12 teams.

moltas
ganon
en_karl
ddk
zero
murdoc
paradoks
striker
darkki
nitram
lacsap
xantom
rikoll
milton
razor
mawe
grisling
bps
carapace
skillah
niw
lakso
kingpin
creature
molle
ok98
nepra
lethalwiz
Dahmer
Diki
Kassim
overdose
votary
springs
squeeze
overflow
adde
rkd
moje
kloze
phrenic
knave
pai
kapo
pooll
tom
goniec
focu
2011-11-07, 09:18
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298 posts

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Sep 2006
Yeah but what about div3 ppl? We cant forget about them and provide smth for them too
2011-11-07, 20:29
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Mar 2006
rkd wrote:
Now here's where it will differ a bit, after the season each team would be allowed to keep 4 players (perhaps only 3 players would be best for parity though), so all the other players would have to reenter the draft for next season and the teams that did worse in the draft this season would be able to draft players first, thus hopefully improving their team for next season.

I think this basically defeats the purpose of a draft league after the first season. All the good teams stay together then the worse teams break up and try again with lesser talents since a lot of good players will stick with their winning teams. You want to start fresh each season. After the first season you can judge much better who is worth drafting and what their value is. Also if the league is run as elitist I also think it defeats the point because it excludes the worse players severely limiting growth and making it harder for "div3" players to get better. With a draft league you can have fair teams where there are div0 guys playing along side div3 guys. If div0/div1/div2/etc can't suck it up to play with and help worse players, such as div3, QW doesn't deserve to keep living anyways. Newbies and bad players are often the life blood of communities. Very few people start out good and often it has taken years for players to rise to the top.

I think a draft league helps both new and top players remain interested since you have a harder fight to win each season. You can never know which team is going to end up the best, many teams that look good on paper end up being shit in real matches. Look at div1 EQL now, arguably there are only two teams that can win it, Fragomatic and Slackers. It's possible another team could win but seems very unlikely. I think that's pretty boring for everyone since the only match that really matters is fOm vs SR. Bad players don't have to be good to contribute to their teams in a draft league they just have to be better than their bad counter parts on the other teams. ;-) Good captains with an eye for talent and skills to train up players would have a large advantage in a draft league. They would also help new or worse players improve all in the name of competition trying to win. Competition is a strong motivator to help those "div3" players on your team play better.

IDL started with 8 teams and has fluctuated between 8-12 teams for 10 seasons but we remain hopeful we can possibly move up to 16 teams, perhaps even this season. We have a small community but it's remarkable how well the draft league has been to keep everyone interested. I don't know if it'll work in EU QW. I know the EU QW community has been shrinking but the IDL community has managed to stay the same more or less. How many of you expect EU QW to still have the same amount of teams in 10 more seasons? I don't think that's possible with the division system but with a draft league IDL has stayed fairly consistent and we might even grow.

The IDL also has trading so captains can cut deals before, during, and after the draft with trading locking near mid season. I've slowly come around to seeing trading as a slight negative however since most of the best IDL teams who go on to win the season result from stupid, bad, unfair, or lopsided trades where one captains just fucks up terribly. Trading can help teams at times however such as if you have a bad mix of players such as all defensive players or people who can't play matches on weekends, etc. My response to that however is just draft your team better as a captain.

I'd be curious to hear more about the QHLan draft and what people thought of it.
2011-11-08, 08:14
Administrator
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Jan 2006
pg wrote:
I'd be curious to hear more about the QHLan draft and what people thought of it.

It was funnier than I expected, and I think that speaks for the most participants! A cool wind, a fresh breeze
But using voice communication with players in the other part of the LAN that sits next to the opponents created a chaotic experience...
Best part: the close games! And that the players were obedient and had the will to cooperate to win.
Also the picking moment were interesting, everyone was so eager to know what team they'd play in
Join us on discord.quake.world
2011-11-08, 08:18
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Jan 1970
imo best idea about breathing life into qw. glad you had fun with it at qhlan
2011-11-08, 08:25
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Feb 2011
i vote for a draft league with all divs in it
2011-11-08, 09:28
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792 posts

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Feb 2006
hagge #1 pick for sure.

really cool idea imo!
2011-11-08, 11:59
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Mar 2008
I'm alot more positive about this after trying it on QHLAN. At least if the dose of it is 2-3 games / week instead of 5 games / 24hours, it should be really fun an not so frustrating in the end :-)

Only thing I kinda disliked was the picking scheme. Ideally, I would just put people into seperate groups depending on skill, and randomly give out playes to each captain. At least I found it abit uncomfortable picking players for the team, while people was watching over my back or screaming across the room to make me do the decision. Reminded me of gym class in elementary school. Still remember some looks on the faces from the people picked last for games involving teams in those classes. Of course, most of us are probably adult enough to handle or know that we suck or that other are better than us, but still. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive about it, but thought I'd share my view on it nontheless.

And comon... Ofc everyone should be welcome to sign up for something like this. Even total newbies. "Only div1/div2" sounds like pure bullshit, and kinda ruins the point of such a league to begin with.

Also, couldn't Cyanide's program be used to try to optimize fairness of mix teams?

*** Edit:

Also it should be a FIXED schedule. So you don't try to drag all your teammates on for whatever random day in the week, just to end up getting no games played. Nothing is more demotivating. Better to try to make people give priority to qw 1-2 evenings a week instead. Then you also filter out those who actually have some passion for this game, and those who just wanna play now and then. Ofc those who just wanna play now and then are a good asset to the scene as well, but maybe not as much of an asset to a tourney.
2011-11-08, 19:00
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Jan 2009
Well as a tournament running alongside eql I dont see the problem with "div1&2" only.
If the purpose is to raise the skill of current div2 players so that they can play in div1 then I don't see the point of adding div3 players, it will in some ways ruin the point.
I mean how are you supposed to become a better div1 player if you're playing with and against players who really are way too behind on skill.

Well the difference is what we're looking at, afaik we're trying to save div1 from total collapse, not the league itself.
A rookie div can still remain and all these active div2 players who dont really want to improve or well dont really want to go to div1 to get raped, they should be forced to div1 by doing this draft, it will hopefully raise their skill, we will see more teams and hopefully good parity amongst the different draft teams.
2011-11-08, 19:19
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Jan 2009
And another thing, how do you supposed the div3 players are supposed to develop in this draft league, cause either they will be the worse players in the team and be benched, or there will be so many teams that they will fit into the lineup, this would mean that the teams overall will be quite shitty and raising people's skill will be out of the question.
And I imagine alot of scenarios where the div3's have to let the div1 player take the weapon/armor/quad, cause he's simply better.
And surely there aren't that many div1's who will be forced to play with some bad div3 player and losing a few games, will stick around and continue in this league, not all people are this nice, not all of us are fix and can play just having fun and be relaxed.

Keep the draft to div1&2, maintain the purpose of creating a wider spectrum of players that can play in div1 and keep the rookie division intact.
2011-11-08, 19:24
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whole point of drafting - as in actively picking players, 1 at a time - would be to have the weaker players in there as well. would be great fun to see which captain manages to integrate their weak link the best, and would be a great opportunity for low tier players to play with the 'pros' for a change.
2011-11-08, 19:25
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Apr 2006
Div3 player so stupid he no understand game. Unreliable too because sometimes just press bind mouse1 quit
2011-11-08, 20:25
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Jan 2009
If the point is to make a completely new league then sure, do a draft and include all, if the point is to revive div1, try to keep it to as high a skill as possible.
2011-11-08, 20:39
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Jan 1970
I suppose the most powerful effect drafting can have is to revive quakeworld, from head to toes. To what extent it can happen, idk. But it sounds good. Really interesting to see who are good leaders and/or trainers.

To limit drafting to div1 and div2 is like to SPIT the rest of the community TO THE FACE. Exactly what a poorly doing community doesnt need. I cant believe that anyone can suggest such a travesty with this beautiful idea.

Hats of to IDL.
2011-11-08, 21:43
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Jan 2009
old wrote:
I suppose the most powerful effect drafting can have is to revive quakeworld, from head to toes. To what extent it can happen, idk. But it sounds good. Really interesting to see who are good leaders and/or trainers.

To limit drafting to div1 and div2 is like to SPIT the rest of the community TO THE FACE. Exactly what a poorly doing community doesnt need. I cant believe that anyone can suggest such a travesty with this beautiful idea.

Hats of to IDL.

First of all, there is a very small amount of div1 players, so if we were to do a draft with all qw players in mind then the div1 players would end being 1 player per team, so we wouldn't see lineups like votary, od, striker, matiee or bps, ok98, lw, crash.
We would see teams like votary, kapo, kopytko, heag etc.
There's just not enough div1 players around to create 30+ teams.
So again, if the purpose is to create more players who can compete on a div1 level I don't see how this draft including all will help anyone.
Keep it to div1 and 2, leave the div3 division as it is, and people from div3 can signup that they want to enter the draft each season, if there is room and they are considered good enough they can join it.
2011-11-08, 23:01
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Dec 2007
i have to agree with rkd. i think we should keep the 'div1' level relatively high with div0-1.5 players, and maybe create another div for div2-3 players. having 2 different level divs would be better for everyone i believe, but we need to have a good rating system for it.
2011-11-09, 07:43
News Writer
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Jun 2007
If we divide the players i can still see the same problem as we see with divisions
It will go something like: OMG PLAYER X IS TOO DAMN GOOD FOR MIXED SEASON DIV2 LOLOL HE WILL RAPE THE WHOLE SHIT!

On the other hand, if we make too many teams there will be alot of teams lacking those really skilled players. And these teams wont stand a chance against the teams with div0s in their lineup. As usual.
Chosen
2011-11-09, 08:52
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Sep 2006
Hmm, mayby we even need to make this 2 threads? This is 2 different matters/goals beeing discussed atm.

One about making eql div1 guys get more games by forcing their teams to split and by training/and or forcing somewhat unwilling div2(oh sry, div1,5) players to play eql div1.
And one about making a second, new big-ass random tournament with anyone who wants to join to increase overall qwtdm activity and increase skill level for everyone. :-)

(just a quick thought here, and im pretty tired
Mayby every eqlteam could be allowed(not forced) 1 doubleplayer(non faking from a higher div(or same or worse) to increase skill and/or activity? That way the div1 guys would get their extra games(if someone want them in their team which im guessing most would do). And the div2 guys that dont want to play in div1 could get many rapefrags in div3 and we would also learn more.
+ a new random tournament including all who wants to play more qwtdm.
2011-11-09, 10:13
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Mar 2007
I think some people are really underestimating div3 guys. There's lots of people in div3 who've been playing a long time and have a good understanding of the game but lack the time/motivation to play enough to become higher div players. Some players have been playing in div1-2 but now days want to play more casual and thus are in div3 just for fun.

I think the guys suggesting only div1-2 tournament are funny, I suppose they're just afraid that div3 guys would get better than they. Everyone knows that best way to improve is to play with better players.
2011-11-09, 10:18
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Get a draft league going that involves any player who wants to enter and see how it works out. Like QHLAN, but on a larger scale. Maybe it would even bring more of the fun back into it again, breathing new life into the whole thing?
www.facebook.com/QuakeWorld
2011-11-09, 10:27
News Writer
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Jun 2007
It would be fun to see how the players would be rated and who would do the rating
Its hard to rate lower skilled players too since their skill can differ much between maps whereas good players do well on all maps, mostly.
Chosen
2011-11-09, 12:51
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If you have played in div1 before, but are now playing in div3, you are gonna rape the hell out of them - i don't care if you just wanna play "casual"
That's just bullshit excuse. Former div1 players can play in current div2 with mousehand tied behind their backs that's how low quality is in QW scene right now

But sure I believe most of div2 players can hack it in a draft league, and possibly some div3 players (who weren't suppose to be in div3).
But I like the idea of this draft thing - it's like Slackers2 on a global scale =) Apprentice style, and it would motivate the div2+ players to get better, playing with better teammates, learning fast and getting lots of competitive games.
ready!
2011-11-09, 13:51
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well with draft teams I would say 6 players per team is good, cause you need some flexibility for scheduling. And I also think it's ok for some div3/2 players to signup, but don't expect to get a lot of games. I mean 4on4 is pretty complicated and when you try to make these equal teams you really don't want some div3 rookie to fuckup the game just because he should get some game time. It's not meant as charity for div3 players, it's meant to induce a broader competitive environment for whole of div2/1 combined, so that 3/4 of the field don't feel left behind. But just because mors signs up doesn't mean that that team is forced to play with him.

But again, its about diversity.. this project should be something extraordinary, and it should run alongside a standard tournament with real clans. It's not a birthright for anyone that can fire up nquake install, to play with div1 players in 4on4.
ready!
2011-11-10, 01:12
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Mar 2006
IDL has had a lot of discussion about ranking players and in the end we could never justify it (yet anyhow!) because it is so hard to say what the value of a player is. Just a stupid example but let's say one guy is really good at camping a few spots on a map but is div3 quality otherwise. On a certain team he might be a very big help but on another team he might be worthless. It's up to captains to build teams that work based on who they can pick from the draft. The idea isn't to have a perfect team but build the best team you can, which can beat the other draft teams.
2011-11-10, 03:00
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Sep 2006
I think im done with making time for teamplay for now. Ive idled so much time last months trying to get some tdm with my team, and i tried plenty ways too.. If someone have time/skill and energy to do something including div3 i might trying to put some time into this again. Fucking sad this, felt so good coming back to qw at first.. ggs and glhf

Div 3 is dead, long live div1!
2011-11-10, 03:19
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Feb 2006
You can just draft a fixed amount players to form the elite league. No need to rank players.

More fun for the lower skill players to play in teams where they aren't dead weight.

If the teams are bigger than 4, there needs to be forced rotation or you get guys made to sit out the entire season.
2011-11-10, 07:36
News Writer
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Jun 2007
#57 Im sorry you feel that way but if oldones didnt work out then contact the guys in mofo/suck they play alot.
Chosen
2011-11-10, 08:47
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139 posts

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Feb 2011
ye hoder come to #mofo channel and we set u up in no time

you will be put in a clan as soon as u arrive my friendo! you are very welcome to mofos.
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