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2011-01-05, 13:46
Moderator
1329 posts

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Apr 2006
So regardless of what was said in that "antilag toggle" -thread, a toggle was added. However I feel it is a bit prone to togglewars, so maybe it should be voteable instead?

Make this one count, no changes are made after the decision is made.
Servers: Troopers
2011-01-05, 13:51
Administrator
1841 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
I would count every second vote on "toggleable" as invalid since it's the default option.... Hence some of those who vote for it probably just clicked submit without giving a fuck
2011-01-05, 15:12
Member
298 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
There is a need to add the 3rd option in the poll: DEFAULT.

Otherwise, this poll is biassed and pretty useless.
2011-01-05, 15:27
Administrator
1841 posts

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Feb 2006
Regarding it being biased, I would be willing to offer a free ban to anyone except qqshka who votes for toggleable
2011-01-05, 15:50
Member
382 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Ahh, the psychology of polls.

Ignoring that, I don't see why anyone would think a toggle would be preferable to a vote. It's not something that has to be changed often, and it is something that requires a majority to be preferable. Those make it perfect for a vote.
2011-01-05, 17:15
Member
138 posts

Registered:
Nov 2006
I'm sure all players will want to vote for this, whatever the vote may be.

If someone doesn't have time to check qw.nu page often, they will skip this important poll.

How long will this poll remain open ?

Or if possible admins send email to all registered users, informing that this poll is currently active.
2011-01-05, 17:41
Member
405 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
well, it took 15 years to add antilag, we can wait for next 15 years and get results of the poll, then 15 years for actually changing it. :E
<3
2011-01-05, 20:28
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
MatriX wrote:
I'm sure all players will want to vote for this, whatever the vote may be.

You overestimate the importance of the poll; it's just for changing the setting when people are on a server.

Stev wrote:
Ignoring that, I don't see why anyone would think a toggle would be preferable to a vote.

I agree, toggle is too prone for shitacting in general. I've seen it with teamoverlay (in 2on2) for too many times, and it's annoying when you can just toggle the setting indefinitely even if 3 players want it enabled and the remaining one is the problematic person.

qqshka wrote:
well, it took 15 years to add antilag, we can wait for next 15 years and get results of the poll, then 15 years for actually changing it. :E

Maybe it should have taken 15 years to create this poll, now that I think of it...
Servers: Troopers
2011-01-05, 22:54
Member
35 posts

Registered:
May 2009
Agree on vote.
2011-02-28, 10:51
Member
950 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
When is poll deadline?
2011-02-28, 12:57
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Well noone seems to care so it's been votable for a while now. And uh, it doesn't even matter, as you can change it anyway now.
Servers: Troopers
2011-02-28, 21:31
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Well at least I had totally missed this vote. It is still quite problematic in a clan 4on4 setting. Why would a team vote antilag off for, say squeeze, who is on their team?

Still, voteable is better than nothing! I'm still wondering if there is some way you could tweak antilag to be less devastating, find a better middle ground? A good player + shafter like squeeze can make it feel too devastating in my (and many others') opinion. I don't want to remove antilag from higher pinging players, but it seems to be a bit too much at the moment. 150ms antilag lg in your back on dm3 = hardly have time to react with 150/100 gear. Ofc same applies in 2on2 where at times I couldn't even see or feel that I'm being shafted, I was just dead. Tweaking plz
2011-03-01, 10:50
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
niomic wrote:
Well at least I had totally missed this vote. It is still quite problematic in a clan 4on4 setting. Why would a team vote antilag off for, say squeeze, who is on their team?

Still, voteable is better than nothing! I'm still wondering if there is some way you could tweak antilag to be less devastating, find a better middle ground? A good player + shafter like squeeze can make it feel too devastating in my (and many others') opinion. I don't want to remove antilag from higher pinging players, but it seems to be a bit too much at the moment. 150ms antilag lg in your back on dm3 = hardly have time to react with 150/100 gear. Ofc same applies in 2on2 where at times I couldn't even see or feel that I'm being shafted, I was just dead. Tweaking plz

Yeah. It's insane the advantage high ping is now days. From now on I'll ping up to 100+ ms in every game I play and own them nubs...

Seriously, avoid getting shafted in the back instead. As pointed out several places, there is no way squeeze or any others LG will feel more devestating with 150ms than on 12ms. Antilag is a great treat to this community. Players like zero can step up and become one of the best players, and americans can join us europeans and play on a much, much more even ground. Squeeze is just a good aimer, and antilag makes it possible for him to compete with other good aimers in terms of damage / time. Antilag should also in theory reduce the amount of ping whine before officials.

Antilag works great for its purpose, and now a voteable option have been added as well. Everyone should be happy?
2011-03-01, 11:55
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Rikoll wrote:
niomic wrote:
Well at least I had totally missed this vote. It is still quite problematic in a clan 4on4 setting. Why would a team vote antilag off for, say squeeze, who is on their team?

Still, voteable is better than nothing! I'm still wondering if there is some way you could tweak antilag to be less devastating, find a better middle ground? A good player + shafter like squeeze can make it feel too devastating in my (and many others') opinion. I don't want to remove antilag from higher pinging players, but it seems to be a bit too much at the moment. 150ms antilag lg in your back on dm3 = hardly have time to react with 150/100 gear. Ofc same applies in 2on2 where at times I couldn't even see or feel that I'm being shafted, I was just dead. Tweaking plz

Yeah. It's insane the advantage high ping is now days. From now on I'll ping up to 100+ ms in every game I play and own them nubs...

Seriously, avoid getting shafted in the back instead. As pointed out several places, there is no way squeeze or any others LG will feel more devestating with 150ms than on 12ms. Antilag is a great treat to this community. Players like zero can step up and become one of the best players, and americans can join us europeans and play on a much, much more even ground. Squeeze is just a good aimer, and antilag makes it possible for him to compete with other good aimers in terms of damage / time. Antilag should also in theory reduce the amount of ping whine before officials.

Antilag works great for its purpose, and now a voteable option have been added as well. Everyone should be happy?

Honestly and seriously, maybe you just haven't been shafted by sqz and other 150ms players enough. "there is no way squeeze or any others LG will feel more devestating with 150ms than on 12ms" it seems to me like you skipped all the discussion concerning the side effects of antilag, especially with lg. How do you think it could not be a bit fucked up if sqz is aiming in ~realtime at his end and by the time the antilag kicks in, he's been shooting for a while = thats when I feel it. Since it's already hard to fight against good lg ambushes, this escalates the situation even further. Sqz is no doubt a better shafter and better in ambushes / positioning for lg than me and many others. That is beside the point. So simply what I want is a better middle ground. With boomstick this is generally not such a big problem if there is just one player with 150ms. But if you think about a clan of 150ms players (like some OClan lineups) shooting you simultaenously with boomstick, by the time you realize 4xboomstick onslaught, they have pretty much shot the next round already. Quadsg + ssg ofc makes it different again.

I don't want to vote antilag away from sqz, but I also don't want him to have a special advantage in certain situations, at least not as much as he has now.
2011-03-01, 12:06
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
niomic wrote:
Honestly and seriously, maybe you just haven't been shafted by sqz and other 150ms players enough. "there is no way squeeze or any others LG will feel more devestating with 150ms than on 12ms" it seems to me like you skipped all the discussion concerning the side effects of antilag, especially with lg. How do you think it could not be a bit fucked up if sqz is aiming in ~realtime at his end and by the time the antilag kicks in, he's been shooting for a while = thats when I feel it. Since it's already hard to fight against good lg ambushes, this escalates the situation even further. Sqz is no doubt a better shafter and better in ambushes / positioning for lg than me and many others. That is beside the point. So simply what I want is a better middle ground. With boomstick this is generally not such a big problem if there is just one player with 150ms. But if you think about a clan of 150ms players (like some OClan lineups) shooting you simultaenously with boomstick, by the time you realize 4xboomstick onslaught, they have pretty much shot the next round already. Quadsg + ssg ofc makes it different again.

I don't want to vote antilag away from sqz, but I also don't want him to have a special advantage in certain situations, at least not as much as he has now.

Ok, show me a demo from one of those games you got owned so much by antilag, and I'll belive you. Only times I've blamed antilag for anything, was because I got owned and had nothing else to blame but myself, and didn't feel like blaming myself at that time, so antilag got it. And no, I don't want that old Bigfoot povdmm4 demo. It was shot before the latest fixes to antilag. Give me something fresh.
2011-03-01, 12:17
Member
100 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Rikoll wrote:
And no, I don't want that old Bigfoot povdmm4 demo. It was shot before the latest fixes to antilag. Give me something fresh.

Thats not true . It was antilag 2. If the latest is antilag 3, then you are right. The bug hasnt fixed as far as i know. Bigfoot told me, he created that demo with antilag 2. My opinion about this matter is well known, so i wont join the discussion.
2011-03-01, 12:20
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Rikoll wrote:
niomic wrote:
Honestly and seriously, maybe you just haven't been shafted by sqz and other 150ms players enough. "there is no way squeeze or any others LG will feel more devestating with 150ms than on 12ms" it seems to me like you skipped all the discussion concerning the side effects of antilag, especially with lg. How do you think it could not be a bit fucked up if sqz is aiming in ~realtime at his end and by the time the antilag kicks in, he's been shooting for a while = thats when I feel it. Since it's already hard to fight against good lg ambushes, this escalates the situation even further. Sqz is no doubt a better shafter and better in ambushes / positioning for lg than me and many others. That is beside the point. So simply what I want is a better middle ground. With boomstick this is generally not such a big problem if there is just one player with 150ms. But if you think about a clan of 150ms players (like some OClan lineups) shooting you simultaenously with boomstick, by the time you realize 4xboomstick onslaught, they have pretty much shot the next round already. Quadsg + ssg ofc makes it different again.

I don't want to vote antilag away from sqz, but I also don't want him to have a special advantage in certain situations, at least not as much as he has now.

Ok, show me a demo from one of those games you got owned so much by antilag, and I'll belive you. Only times I've blamed antilag for anything, was because I got owned and had nothing else to blame but myself, and didn't feel like blaming myself at that time, so antilag got it. And no, I don't want that old Bigfoot povdmm4 demo. It was shot before the latest fixes to antilag. Give me something fresh.

Well a demo is not really such a good showcase for it, as that is the server view of things. Most likely it would show sqz's lg shooting in the air (unless he has me in a corner 100%), because the model doesn't adjust according to antilag in the mvd itself. In addition, how would you guage how it looks and feels at sqz's end vs my end? The whole point is that by the time I know I'm being shafted, it's already been going on for a while. When you shaft me with 12ms, I know almost immediately and try to dodge / flee / shoot. So in addition to being able to actually aim at the model in his view and shaft "normally", the antilag player gets the added bonus of landing shots before the opponent can know / react to it.

I don't care about bigfoot demos, I care about what I feel in game (having played vs sqz a lot on dm3) and what other players have noted as well while speccing and playing him. There is no doubt that _some_ of these situations are such that the players would have been owned regardless of antilag, but again, that is beside the point.

At the end of this discussion, it is entirely possible that I'll just have to accept that while sqz enjoys certain advantages, he is still at a disadvantage in many other things due to ping and that that is equal / fair enough to enable him and others to play with us (which is a high priority for me).
2011-03-01, 12:54
Member
458 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
niomic wrote:
At the end of this discussion, it is entirely possible that I'll just have to accept that while sqz enjoys certain advantages, he is still at a disadvantage in many other things due to ping and that that is equal / fair enough to enable him and others to play with us (which is a high priority for me).

That isn't just possible, it is very probable, since coding on the antilag feature is a project thats ended afaik, and that tourney admins seems to have endorsed the feature for what it is. Until high pingers actively start to exploit and become proficient of abusing the antilag feature (how would that be done I wonder), I doubt much will happen in this area from either developers or tourney admins. Remember also that if an enemy has 100ms more than you, it means he spots you 100ms later than you spot him, and also means you could put one extra cell in him before he even can react to that. But yeah, I'm also aware that this feature got certain flaws. With a shrinking community this is a very small price to pay for more active players in the scene.

Just enjoy the game and be happy we got active players from across the atlantic to play with us is my best advice, if not I would think you got a tough journey ahead of you trying to get changes to this again :-)
2011-03-01, 14:17
Member
226 posts

Registered:
Mar 2007
We've this saying in WoW: "L2P"

L2P Niomic and all the other guys who lose to hpws.

I play in a clan where people come from all over the europe so I often play with 60ms, a few years ago I wouldn't have been able to play with that kind of a ping (nevertheless I started QW as a HPW).

Antilag is the best thing ever happened to QW-scene.

It means equality, it puts everybody on the same line, it makes possible to connect players from all over the planet, it's a beautiful thing.
2011-03-01, 14:55
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
PEKTOPAHKY wrote:
We've this saying in WoW: "L2P"

L2P Niomic and all the other guys who lose to hpws.

I play in a clan where people come from all over the europe so I often play with 60ms, a few years ago I wouldn't have been able to play with that kind of a ping (nevertheless I started QW as a HPW).

Antilag is the best thing ever happened to QW-scene.

It means equality, it puts everybody on the same line, it makes possible to connect players from all over the planet, it's a beautiful thing.

I like many of the things that antilag has brought us as an international scene and that is more important to me than the flaws (possibly inevitable) in its implementation. But saying that it puts everybody on the same line is just bullshit. It makes it possible for hpw's to compete reasonably close to the same level they are at with lower ping (most important). But it also introduces new problems that we might be able to mitigate without affecting the former too heavily, and that's what I'm inquiring here. Margins in div1 are often quite thin and lg's (antilag or not) can be quite devisive in contemporary dm3 play. The antilag advantage just feels wrong, even if I can easily admit that I shoud learn 2 play better vs all lg's

Given a choice between 1) sqz and other hpw's playing with us or 2) no antilag, I would definitely vote for 1.
2011-03-01, 15:09
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
niomic wrote:
Well at least I had totally missed this vote. It is still quite problematic in a clan 4on4 setting. Why would a team vote antilag off for, say squeeze, who is on their team?

Still, voteable is better than nothing! I'm still wondering if there is some way you could tweak antilag to be less devastating, find a better middle ground? A good player + shafter like squeeze can make it feel too devastating in my (and many others') opinion. I don't want to remove antilag from higher pinging players, but it seems to be a bit too much at the moment. 150ms antilag lg in your back on dm3 = hardly have time to react with 150/100 gear. Ofc same applies in 2on2 where at times I couldn't even see or feel that I'm being shafted, I was just dead. Tweaking plz

if u got shafted in the back with such weak gear with 12ms u wouldnt have any time to react either, youd be dead. i think there is still no proof that antilag is any more devastating than 12ms.
2011-03-01, 15:45
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
blAze wrote:
niomic wrote:
Well at least I had totally missed this vote. It is still quite problematic in a clan 4on4 setting. Why would a team vote antilag off for, say squeeze, who is on their team?

Still, voteable is better than nothing! I'm still wondering if there is some way you could tweak antilag to be less devastating, find a better middle ground? A good player + shafter like squeeze can make it feel too devastating in my (and many others') opinion. I don't want to remove antilag from higher pinging players, but it seems to be a bit too much at the moment. 150ms antilag lg in your back on dm3 = hardly have time to react with 150/100 gear. Ofc same applies in 2on2 where at times I couldn't even see or feel that I'm being shafted, I was just dead. Tweaking plz

if u got shafted in the back with such weak gear with 12ms u wouldnt have any time to react either, youd be dead. i think there is still no proof that antilag is any more devastating than 12ms.

So you're saying that _a lot_ of people are just on this whine bandwagon (not that they'd say it here)? I'm not saying that I can't get owned with 12ms. I'm simply saying that the reaction time and recourses I have against a well potitioned antilag lg are worse. Have you played dm4 vs 150ms players 2on2? If you have, have you "just died" with 100h without even seeing the lg really? If the answer is no, then you haven't felt it

And hah, 150ya/100h, weak gear indeed Against contemporary lg's, it is definitely not a huge stack, but it's not weak either

Just another example. When you shaft me on pov 12ms vs 12ms, I can almost immediately react, jumping and strafe dodging (or even just jumping) in the air with the help of your lgpush. That dynamic simply doesn't work the same way with 12ms vs 150ms antilag lg.
2011-03-01, 17:00
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Not to invalidate niomic's arguments, but it's worth noting that human reaction time adds at least about 150ms to the mix.

It can and does happen that you see the enemy and get killed before it was humanly possible to react. Yet it might feel like you had a chance as opposed to not seeing him at all. This without any network lag.
2011-03-01, 18:40
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Kalma wrote:
Not to invalidate niomic's arguments, but it's worth noting that human reaction time adds at least about 150ms to the mix.

It can and does happen that you see the enemy and get killed before it was humanly possible to react. Yet it might feel like you had a chance as opposed to not seeing him at all. This without any network lag.

The reaction time is there with or without antilag. And if you take into account that 100% lg does 120 damage in 400ms, there's certainly room to react with low ping even against perfect lg. That reaction might not amount to anything or you could get off a reflex shot (btw. reflexes are faster than regular concious "reactions".
2011-03-01, 21:56
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
It's not enough just to react, you also need time to actually move your player model away from the shaft and somehow disrupt the opponents aim (shaft back/rocket hit). I guess someone who knows the metrics better could do a calculation how much damage is done before you can even in theory move away from the hit zone. From my experience when you get to shaft your opponent in the back in pov (standing behind the center spawn, opponent spawning there) simply a massive amount of damage is done even if your opponent is able to make instant direct rocket hit after turning. There is no way you'd survive that with 150/100. I have been unable to notice the possible side effects of antilag in gameplay.
2011-03-01, 22:04
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
blAze wrote:
It's not enough just to react, you also need time to actually move your player model away from the shaft and somehow disrupt the opponents aim (shaft back/rocket hit). I guess someone who knows the metrics better could do a calculation how much damage is done before you can even in theory move away from the hit zone. From my experience when you get to shaft your opponent in the back in pov (standing behind the center spawn, opponent spawning there) simply a massive amount of damage is done even if your opponent is able to make instant direct rocket hit after turning. There is no way you'd survive that with 150/100. I have been unable to notice the possible side effects of antilag in gameplay.

The effects have been covered in length in the other topic, I didn't realize I would have to go through it again. Even common sense dictates that the 150ms has to go somewhere and be a deficit for someone. If it is no longer a deficit to the lagged player while shafting, there is only one place where it can move: to the other player, to a degree. Must be even nicer with 150ms vs 150ms antilag :]] And please stop talking about being able to own ppl with lg ambushes even with 12ms, that is given and no one is disputing it.
2011-03-01, 23:32
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
niomic wrote:
blAze wrote:
It's not enough just to react, you also need time to actually move your player model away from the shaft and somehow disrupt the opponents aim (shaft back/rocket hit). I guess someone who knows the metrics better could do a calculation how much damage is done before you can even in theory move away from the hit zone. From my experience when you get to shaft your opponent in the back in pov (standing behind the center spawn, opponent spawning there) simply a massive amount of damage is done even if your opponent is able to make instant direct rocket hit after turning. There is no way you'd survive that with 150/100. I have been unable to notice the possible side effects of antilag in gameplay.

The effects have been covered in length in the other topic, I didn't realize I would have to go through it again. Even common sense dictates that the 150ms has to go somewhere and be a deficit for someone. If it is no longer a deficit to the lagged player while shafting, there is only one place where it can move: to the other player, to a degree. Must be even nicer with 150ms vs 150ms antilag :]] And please stop talking about being able to own ppl with lg ambushes even with 12ms, that is given and no one is disputing it.

He is already 150ms behind to start shafting. Excuse me, but it was you who started to complain about getting shafted into the back. I was just saying that no one has been able to show that antilagged player would be more deadly than 12ms player in your example scenario.
2011-03-01, 23:53
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
blAze wrote:
niomic wrote:
blAze wrote:
It's not enough just to react, you also need time to actually move your player model away from the shaft and somehow disrupt the opponents aim (shaft back/rocket hit). I guess someone who knows the metrics better could do a calculation how much damage is done before you can even in theory move away from the hit zone. From my experience when you get to shaft your opponent in the back in pov (standing behind the center spawn, opponent spawning there) simply a massive amount of damage is done even if your opponent is able to make instant direct rocket hit after turning. There is no way you'd survive that with 150/100. I have been unable to notice the possible side effects of antilag in gameplay.

The effects have been covered in length in the other topic, I didn't realize I would have to go through it again. Even common sense dictates that the 150ms has to go somewhere and be a deficit for someone. If it is no longer a deficit to the lagged player while shafting, there is only one place where it can move: to the other player, to a degree. Must be even nicer with 150ms vs 150ms antilag :]] And please stop talking about being able to own ppl with lg ambushes even with 12ms, that is given and no one is disputing it.

He is already 150ms behind to start shafting. Excuse me, but it was you who started to complain about getting shafted into the back. I was just saying that no one has been able to show that antilagged player would be more deadly than 12ms player in your example scenario.

Just for clarity, this is a situation where the victim is stationary and the attacker can shaft at will with 100% accuracy.

| relative time | 150ms antilag | 38ms | dmg 100% accumulative |
| 0ms | 1st hit | - | 30 |
| 100ms | 2nd hit | - | 60 |
| 200ms | 3rd hit | - or fuck | 90 | "-" due to reaction time + gear latency etc
| 300ms | 4th hit | fuck | 120 |



Edit, I didn't originally take into account that ping is round-trip, but as I was adjusting the numbers for one-way traffic, it didn't seem to affect it that much when you take reaction time into account. Packets also aren't sent _all the time_ in the millisecond timescale.
2011-03-02, 02:48
Member
405 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I don't get the table.

Regarding noticeability of been shafted. Server apply lg damage each 100 ms (one cell, 30 damage, as you know). When damage applied you will notice it with nearest packet which you receive from the server, that mean with ping 12ms you notice damage in 12ms at worst case(with zero pl ofc). You notice it with decreased health/armor, with knock back, with the blood and lg bolt. Blood and bolt kinda fucked up against high pingers BUT health/armor does not affected, so you MUST notice it pretty the same (yet I think alot of ppl also rely on blood and bolt in his face but it does not help when one ambushing you from behind). Yet again, I just tried to clarify that server does not apply few cells from HPW in one server frame, rules are the same for HPW, one cell in 100ms, and you notice it quite the same besides blood and bolt.
<3
2011-03-02, 09:29
Member
226 posts

Registered:
Mar 2007
Talked with niomic about this last night and I think he might be right.
The HPW is able to shoot for 150ms (which is atleast 1 cell, 30 damage) before the opponent is able to dodge.

But if it is just 1 cell isn't it the same for LPB?

Anyway, in theory this is pretty [sarcasm]DRAMATIC[/sarcasm] advantage for playing with 150ms.

But we're talking about 150ms, that's not a very long time, actually it's a really short time and feeling the difference between 150 milliseconds and 12 milliseconds is pretty out there.
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