User panel stuff on forum
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General Discussion
2010-12-06, 17:44
Member
1754 posts

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Jan 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
Nah you have those annoying know-it-alls that everyone hates in politics too

(not saying _everyone_ hates bigfoot though)

well.. I hate bigfoot :/
2010-12-06, 20:51
Member
90 posts

Registered:
Aug 2007
I hate it.
2010-12-06, 21:08
Member
271 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
just ban him already, I'm getting bored of checking this site to see if he's banned yet.
moo
2010-12-06, 21:37
Member
345 posts

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Feb 2006
What? FTE can't do that automatically for you yet?
2010-12-07, 03:41
Member
114 posts

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Mar 2006
fodquake can
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2010-12-07, 11:47
Member
188 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
fog wrote:
A bit more background info on this matter. Interesting read I must say:
http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2276&p=1

Actually it is quite funny rereading that old thread. Unfortunately posts were edited and censored, so it's hard for people to really see what's going on.

What happened is that _Disconnect_ posted a link to my fix of the Ezquake obscurity module. I then posted stating that the obscurity module has a bug that makes it randomly give false information, and quoted Disconnect admitting that this bug existed. Renzo then decided to censor my post claiming it was an "exploit", while doing nothing to Disconnect who posted the link to my crack.

Now, what more happened?
1) I was being blamed by several people on the Ezquake team for simply pointing out a simple logical fact.
2) Qqshka joins the part, calls me a 'cheat diller', calls for me to be banned, and then tries to insult me by calling me 'bigfool', claims I'm 'unsulting people' and compares me to 'gocksane'.
3) Disconnect chimes in and also states that 'cheat dillers must be banned, their messages and accounts must be deleted'. I'd like to think it was some sort of sarcasm as he was the one to post the link to the fix for the Ezquake obscurity module. Unfortunately I think he meant it seriously.
4) Disconnect tells Molgrum to shut the fuck up.
5) Deurk posts a comment with no information just containing something that's supposed to insult me.
6) Deurk deletes his post.
7) Johnny_cz calls for me to be banned.
8) I point out that it has previously been proven that Ezquake's obscurity module violated the GPL, making it by definition 'warez' and that according to the forum rules, discussing 'warez' is illegal. In highlighting the absurdity of various people asking for me to be banned, I point out that Disconnect and Johnny_cz broke that rule and asked for them to be banned too.
9) Johnny_cz accuses me of insulting people, while in the whole thread I've been civil and patient and simply calmly pointed out the logical fallacies. OTOH, several other people have insulted me, but Johnny_cz obviously doesn't care about that.
10) Oldman tries to threaten me with forum rules.
11) Disconnect blames me for his belief in a logical fallacy, then tries to insult me by calling me 'noskill noob' and 'never-plays-qw-bigfoot'.
12) Disconnect tries to claim it is my fault that Ezquake works extremely poorly on Linux by the use of an insult.
13) Oldman cheers on Disconnect's insult.

Again, let me point out that I was being 100% civil in that thread. No insults, no getting personal with anyone, nothing. I tried. In return, I got insulted by several Ezquake developers, I had Renzo abuse his moderator privileges on me and I had several Ezquake developers call for me being banned. And the people who violated the forum rules and who insulted people, of course they weren't banned. No ban, no warning, no moderator intervention.

Fast forward 3 years, and nothing at all has changed. The people who hated me for pointing out a logical fact in a civil matter 3 years ago have now argued and come to an agreement that I must be banned a second time for pointing out that Renzo is a hypocrite. Of course, pointing out the truth is indeed a violation of the forum rules, but at least half the posts in this thread are. Renzo himself violates the forum rules. But as we all learned 3 years ago, violating the forum rules is OK as long as your username is not 'bigfoot'. So now we're waiting for Zalon to actually add my ban, which is what Spike is referring to.

Tata for now
2010-12-07, 13:20
Administrator
1023 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Hehe, so it seems like everything boils down to peoples lack of knowledge and understanding. (Which was my point when i quoted Hooraytion some posts above)
2010-12-07, 13:51
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
You didnt understand the purpose of my post fog... it was not meant to call anyone anything. As i posted later:

"I wasnt describing renzo. I just wanted to tell Spirit he didnt have to turn the description of bigfoot around to describe a politician since there are both types readily available in politics too."

I wasnt describing anyone period.
Chosen
2010-12-07, 14:30
Member
397 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Let's all be friends and hold hands.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could wake up
In the morning when the day is new
And after having spent the day together
Hold each other close the whole night through
2010-12-07, 16:36
Member
132 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Admins, as ezquake developer I beg you don't ban bigfoot, please.
qw.nu is best quake special olympics arena ever!
Mine do no spaek engrish!
2010-12-07, 17:31
Member
85 posts

Registered:
May 2007
Please moderators, lock this thread.

As we see, Bigfoot has no ban at the moment and thus making this thread irrelevant.

Thank you!
Str8 Outta Ritoniemi!
2010-12-07, 17:49
Administrator
326 posts

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Jan 2006
I think it's VERY naive of bigfoot to think that his actions has no impact whatsoever, it's like a football player taking down an attacker when he has free run with ball toward goal, then standing with his hands up in the air "wasn't me,look he didn't even get a scratch"

Yes, maybe you didn't insult anyone, but you have a very specific way of pointing out things without being to much help yourself. Also seems like you have little understanding of real life dynamics where there is a balance between userbase and developer workload/requirements.

You spend a lot of time and energy on this forum pointing out flaws etc. but why? Are you just trolling for attention, or do you have some real world solutions. It feels like you say that anything is hackable.. and if it's hackable then don't bother at all making any kind of security from a technical standpoint, without thinking about real world dynamics.

I remember when there were aimbots/wallhacks and other lamers running around with superspeed and modified models. You don't see those anymore. Maybe it's because scene is so small noone can be bothered using it, and it's gonna be found out immediately. But i'd also like to think the work developers have done over the years putting up obstacles with security modules and so forth helped.

Btw, what are we even using now in ezquake? we are not using any security module, all we got is f_version, f_modified, f_ruleset.. those seem like truely useless checks. You say only security that is worth talking about is some kind of server side checking of clients, so propose something that can do that if you know how. Maybe implement it in FTE or whatever if you don't like MVDSV / ezquake developers.
ready!
2010-12-07, 18:02
Member
345 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
A security module that is required by tournaments and only available for ezQuake (Win32 and Linux x86)? Not hard to see the problem with that, now is it? If it had stuck, it would have forced developers of other clients to implement similar measures or become irrelevant. That means extra work, for something that's basically useless. Not hard to understand why you would fight that?
2010-12-07, 18:15
Member
271 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
the thing about security modules is that they're fun to circumvent.
I know of 4 people that made a cheat of some kind for fuhquake or ezquake purely _because_ of their security modules.
My own offering provides a wallhack in software rendering, and an aimbot (a really really cheesy one), with commands to switch them on or off. The best thing about it is that I did this without modifying the exe at all. Which is a really easy way to bypass security modules that don't really do anything.
It was fun to do! My only regret is my concience not letting me distribute it.

Alternatively I could get past any fuhquake-style security module by modifying/adding 5 or so lines of code. It might be a little clumsy, but the code itself is trivial if you know the lines to edit. I could look up the line numbers, but I'm too lazy.
By server-side checking of clients, what was meant was login screens, of a sort. And even then you only gain the ability to ban more easily. DP reportedly already supports this for its own protocols.
Note that quakeworld already has a 'snap' command to catch wallhacks.

Look, put it this way, a security module encourages people to create cheats while no security module draws no extra attention.
A security module that is trivial to bypass is pointless.
A security module that prevents you from playing QuakeWorld on $systemofchoice is frustrating.
A security module that prevents you from (easilly) using some patch to work around issues with a broken intel graphics driver is game over, or to fix alsa issues, or distro incompatibility.
All it does it force people to use ezquake.
And that is an utterly vulguar proposition, if only due to that god damn ugly console 'bling'.
moo
2010-12-07, 18:24
Administrator
326 posts

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Jan 2006
so what you're saying is everything is pointless? That we should all play with open clients, and trust each other not to cheat, cause that's basically what we are doing now...

--- edit: content removed by admin ---

It seems all games has this problem.. new games come out, and servers are filled with cheaters and lamers from day1, only actions taken is active admins banning cheaters. I guess it's a fulltime job untill most cheaters are blocked manually.
ready!
2010-12-07, 18:28
Member
271 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
The thing you have to remember about quakeworld is that if a noob gets on dm4 with an aimbot, they'll still end up with negative frags.
moo
2010-12-07, 18:35
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Jan 2006
and the thing you have to think about is that if you have 100% open client, anyone with VERY limited coding skills can change ANYTHING, and use FB backpacks, wallhack, modified playermodels etc. all to get an edge. With some basic security it's only a handfull of people able to do this hack. And those people are so bad in QW it doesn't make a big impact imo anyway. Also they would still have to distribute it. I mean you can't deny there is some difference there?
ready!
2010-12-07, 18:36
Member
114 posts

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Mar 2006
--- edit: content removed by admin ---
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2010-12-07, 18:37
Administrator
1023 posts

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Apr 2006
ParadokS wrote:
so what you're saying is everything is pointless? That we should all play with open clients, and trust each other not to cheat, cause that's basically what we are doing now... --- edit: content removed by admin ---".

It seems all games has this problem.. new games come out, and servers are filled with cheaters and lamers from day1, only actions taken is active admins banning cheaters. I guess it's a fulltime job untill most cheaters are blocked manually.

You kind of miss the point?

"trying to make SOME kind of security for qw to prevent cheat" <-- at what cost? See #43.
And as for how the security-model worked (or not), read the thread I linked to on page 1.

So it sums up to a security model that they proved didn't work, it just made their development and use of other client + OS a lot harder, and no one gained anything from it.
2010-12-07, 18:55
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326 posts

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Jan 2006
I still beg to differ, it did end up with some security (broken by only a handfull of ppl who chose not to actually distrubuted hacked version for other players to use and cheat with).
For a regular player, with a security module in place, it's still practically impossible to cheat, unless you directly contact bigfoot or someone else "hack qw for me so i can cheat". Do they want to do that? They didn't seem to have that intention so far.

Without security module, anyone can modify source with little or no knowledge about coding and enable all valuable non-aimbot/wallhack cheats. That counts for nothing?
It would just feel very sad to realize that we got ZERO, ZIP, NADA protection against any donkey out there who wanna cheat.. maybe we have been living in the dark for all those years, but then it really feels like we are set back in qw stoneage when ppl could use whatever they wanted.

What happend to that analogy that a proper lock is gonna work for 95% of robbery attempts, but there will always be those 5% who can break it anyway with enough diligence and skill.. at least 95% are cut off from the start.

If you leave the door open from day1 doesn't it invite even more cheaters than having security module, that only a few can break (who might not even have a gamers perspective or motive to cheat and use it ingame)?.
ready!
2010-12-07, 18:58
Administrator
326 posts

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Jan 2006
Feels like we didn't have any cheat problems for years now, so maybe it really is pointless, or maybe some div1 players out there laughing at us with their easy hacked ezq clients without sec module or any coding skills. Only LAN counts for real

Perhaps that skill and time from the deverlopers are better spent on other stuff, like new and better features.. for example my live-coverage suggestion in the other thread. http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4855
ready!
2010-12-07, 19:01
Administrator
1023 posts

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Apr 2006
ParadokS wrote:
I still beg to differ, it did end up with some security (broken by only a handfull of ppl who chose not to actually distrubuted hacked version for other players to use and cheat with).
For a regular player, with a security module in place, it's still practically impossible to cheat, unless you directly contact bigfoot or someone else "hack qw for me so i can cheat". Do they want to do that? They didn't seem to have that intention so far.

Without security module, anyone can modify source with little or no knowledge about coding and enable all valuable non-aimbot/wallhack cheats. That counts for nothing?
It would just feel very sad to realize that we got ZERO, ZIP, NADA protection against any donkey out there who wanna cheat.. maybe we have been living in the dark for all those years, but then it really feels like we are set back in qw stoneage when ppl could use whatever they wanted.

So with a security module you need to be über-elite-hacker to be able to cheat.. But
without a security module _anyone at all, despite knowledge about coding_ can cheat.

Do you seriously believe that?

I do think a proper lock would lock out thieves as in your example. A plastic non-working lock wouldn't help much though.
2010-12-07, 19:01
Member
114 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
any donkey can type "opengl wallhack" into google, might take a while with hoofes but they will get there!
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2010-12-07, 19:05
Member
271 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
ParadokS wrote:
and the thing you have to think about is that if you have 100% open client, anyone with VERY limited coding skills can change ANYTHING, and use FB backpacks, wallhack, modified playermodels etc. all to get an edge. With some basic security it's only a handfull of people able to do this hack. And those people are so bad in QW it doesn't make a big impact imo anyway. Also they would still have to distribute it. I mean you can't deny there is some difference there?

So you're basically asking for sv_pure? No replacing pickups with sprites (which are always fullbright)? No replacing sounds with 30-sec samples with a 'go pick me up' towards the end? No using r_speeds to see when an enemy player moves into the pvs while still being obscured?

If you want fullbright backpacks, use fullbright floor textures and pitch-black pickup textures. It would look ugly but it would get you an edge. An sv_pure option would annihilate all progress made since tga support. A 'security' module would be basically the same - simply consider the amount of code that has been ported to ezquake from other quakeworld engines. There are plenty of wallhacks for halflife that would work fine in quakeworld.
moo
2010-12-07, 19:20
Member
1433 posts

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Jan 2006
I'm not going to get attracted by the trolling of Bigfoot, so no reply from me on the "topic". Basically what ParadokS says reflects my view quite closely.

But I'd just like to STRONGLY warn everyone that our decision making in forum moderation stuff is heavily delayed. Do act politely, this thread is again going out of proportions (like almost every thread where bigfoot participates). For example if you see a post with some "unpretty stuff" like ~5 posts ago, unmoderated, it does NOT mean you are allowed to write similarly "unpretty" posts. You are putting yourself in the danger of getting an official forum warning, or worse.
2010-12-07, 19:24
Member
114 posts

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Mar 2006
its like bigfoots posts are crystal meth to some people, drugs man... drugs...
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2010-12-07, 19:28
Administrator
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Apr 2006
JohnNy_cz wrote:
I'm not going to get attracted by the trolling of Bigfoot, so no reply from me on the "topic". Basically what ParadokS says reflects my view quite closely.

But I'd just like to STRONGLY warn everyone that our decision making in forum moderation stuff is heavily delayed. Do act politely, this thread is again going out of proportions (like almost every thread where bigfoot participates). For example if you see a post with some "unpretty stuff" like ~5 posts ago, unmoderated, it does NOT mean you are allowed to write similarly "unpretty" posts. You are putting yourself in the danger of getting an official forum warning, or worse.

I'm assuming your post was sarcastic, otherwise I'm guessing your in trouble according to your own rules.
You call bigfoot a troll just to continue with warning people about consequences if they don't behave polite?
I'm just making a guess here, and that is that you don't mean what Para wrote, but what jogi quote that para wrote? (beat that sentence if you can!)
2010-12-07, 19:29
Member
271 posts

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Feb 2006
ParadokS wrote:
What happend to that analogy that a proper lock is gonna work for 95% of robbery attempts, but there will always be those 5% who can break it anyway with enough diligence and skill.. at least 95% are cut off from the start.

The analogy of locks is that you need to have a lock in order for your insurance company to pay out. Plus you can charge people for breaking and entering, even if they discover you had nothing worth stealing.
Sure, they need to smash open a window or pick the lock, but to continue the analogy, that's the equivelent to them getting the source and figuring out how to modify it.
moo
2010-12-07, 19:42
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114 posts

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Mar 2006
Quote:
20:35 < Rabid> censorship is the tool of choice in the toolbox of a tyrant
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2010-12-07, 20:50
Member
397 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Please ban everyone who has been writing in this thread!
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