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2010-03-25, 06:08
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485 posts

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Feb 2006
soma wrote:
Second of all, how do you want new players to even learn 4on4? Whenever someone sucky/new joins a mix game, they're usually told to spec, everyone whines at them, people tell them to go play FFA, etc... Everyone always talks about wanting new players to start QW, but when someone new arrives nobody wants him to actually participate in any of the mixes.

4on4 mixeds are such a pile of shit-acting poo. I can imagine a newbie uninstalling QW after that experience. There should be some kind of a warning sign. Of course the gameplay is also going to be crap with big skillgaps and it's out of the question for any of the best players to drop instead.

There was some effort towards irc gather games. But I guess that too needs an admin to filter out the shit and who the hell wants to deal with that.

Sassa is right. We need slightly insane can-do people. Venting at forums does very little (*points at self*).


"play more and people will play more"
I would play a little more if I didn't find mixeds intolerable or if my clan would find an opponent every time we have 4... As it is we manage to play about twice a week.
2010-03-25, 07:16
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312 posts

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Feb 2006
fog wrote:
Back to the 3+1: I started Quakeklan with some other "noobs" at the time. We started play in div3 in NQR11, and had recruited mogge for the season. Mogge was better than any other player in our team and the rest of us were more or less equal in skill. So we were like 3 semi rookies and 1 experienced. We all kind of learned quickly since we played much and wanted to improve. Next I think we played in div3 (of 6) in EQL7-8 or something, recruiting TheEvilDog from who we learned a lot too... And so on... Letting the game play and style evolve.

So it had nothing to do with Mogge and I do disagree that you get better with a much better player in your team. I think I've developed as a tdm-player the most when the team consists of people with somewhat similiar skill level. When you have someone better in your team, you're pretty much just depending on his input to the game. With players of similiar skill level you need to take the responsibility to take power-ups and deciding on what to do with them etc.

When I first started playing tdm, we had a bunch of Team Fortress players in Neatmeat who had never played deathmatch. And myz, who had been playing for a while. We won games, even though we didn't know how to play at all, and that's not a good thing for developing. Similarly CMT had at some point a lot more experienced Bigloader and Mega who ran the show, while the rest of our player's critical mistakes and shitty playing had a pretty much non-existant factor on the result.

So I don't think there's a big difference between 4 helpless newbies shooting with shotguns for 20 min, and 3 helpless newbies having rocket launchers and armors with the better player just clearing the map time after time - except that with 4 helpless newbies you're forced to learn how to do something about the icky situations yourselves.
2010-03-25, 07:48
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
Perhaps there are a lot more ways than 1 to get better at 4on4?
Chosen
2010-03-25, 08:07
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459 posts

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Mar 2008
I'm not sure if indirectly forcing different players to play together is the best way to get new players started. Liberty is always the best way, and if people chose to eventually stop playing this game then so be it. Think Rille and Sassa (!) actually got the most valid points here. To make the game interesting, the community needs to be alive. We need players that like to play a lot, players with attitude, more drama, more events around the drama stuff in the community (what happened to the CH-TV challenges? is Reppie vs Milton the last there was?). Continuous tourneys of different kinds also helps alot. And don't be so fucking afraid of losing.

And I also agree on the mix part. Playing mix games in this community is just shit. You come to the server, wait forever for someone to finish his joint, cigarette, talk about wrestlers or whatever, whining on teams, come back from afk, etc etc etc even for several minutes after its actually 8 players on the server. When the game first starts its mainly about a "div1" dude running around playing 1on4 with quad and lg, running between important spots owning everything up on the same map again, and again, and again. Well some exceptions ofc.

So.. more activity from the players already playing, more drama, more shittalkers like Sassa, more tourneys for both experienced players and newbies. I doubt mixing newbie X with experienced player A, B and C will do much good in the end, but sure doesn't hurt trying either :-).
2010-03-25, 08:58
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
Clans are mostly not afraid of losing, they are hesitant about wasting 20-60+ minutes on getting raped. A normal loss is easier to convert into something good and learn something from. This has been discussed before tho and there are ppl who actually think you gain something from a rape but i think it is up to each clan to decide who they want to play vs in a prac. Some clans dont want to spend their only 2 games a week on useless respawning. However, clans that play a lot and really try to get better can just as well prac any team since they probably play more than 2 times per week and are bound to not getting raped at some point

It is really no use in forcing teams to prac. If you have problems getting a prac it is not some mid-rookie clans fault youre not getting any.
Chosen
2010-03-25, 09:46
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462 posts

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Jan 2006
But it is a problem to the scene though. If the only enjoyable quaking for us is reduced to 2 officials against fusion and sr, what's the point anymore. Back in the days top clans were praccing together all the time. Somehow there is very little left to play.
2010-03-25, 10:06
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397 posts

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Feb 2006
I think the 4on4 mix bashing is a bit exaggerated and mix is a great way of developing your skills. Just look at players like rookie, flash and jebbis.. all pro players today thanks to all the mixing :E Same thing for me a few years ago 8)

Yes, it is annoying that first someone rolls a spliff for 10 min, then when he is finished someone is taking a big dump for another 10 minutes etc, but there is a solution to this problem. Instead of just sitting silently waiting for these wankers, fkn ACTIVATE YOURSELF to get people ready. If they don't, simply go for admin status and kick the idlers and new ones will show up shortly. Most of the players in the mix wants to play instead of idle and that is why this will work. I always do this, and I can't remember having to wait long for a mix to start..

The part about there only being a div1 dude running around 1on4 with quad and lg is definately wrong as well. There is a lot of good players playing mix and the competition is often quite hard. Seems like you haven't played mix for a while Rikoll :E

I remember there was some kind of 4on4 mix tourney a few years ago? Anyone remember how it worked? If I remember correctly it was a quite good initiative for the newbies who got to play with more skilled players!
2010-03-25, 10:47
News Writer
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Jun 2007
A ladder would help imo. Clans would play even vs tvs if there is a good point system which rewards activity and scoring frags vs better teams.

Even if lets say tvs would win dm2 350-60 and dm3 295-85 there should be some way of rewarding the frags made vs a better team. Obviously the system will work better and better the more games are played. I remember that some clans got ridiculous amounts of points in the nqr ladder by playing vs a clan with a lot of points while themselves having 0 games played. Like SR idling for a while and then rape a few clans with a lot of games played. Maybe have some sort of point cap to avoid huge point payouts.

Still, it is hard to avoid the boring factor in a huge loss but if it will give your team points in the struggle with equal clans that wont play vs the top teams then perhaps it is worth it? The motivator would be having playoffs in the end with either a big playoffs of 8-16 clans or A and B playoffs with 8 clans each. Perhaps even a C playoffs if there are enough clans. All clans on the same ladder but different playoffs, i think it would be a lot of fun.
Chosen
2010-03-25, 10:51
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Jan 2006
Playing mix with idiots is painful but it teaches you self control. If you can play a mix without starting to whine, then surely you can do it in a clan game. As annoying as it is, it's still the best way to learn 4on4 real pracs excluded. I agree with hagge, just force spec or kick idlers immediatly. If they wanna play they come back, or the spot is free for someone else who does. Waiting is the biggest pain in qw.
2010-03-25, 11:02
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
Playing mix with idiots sure is painful. Div0 players whining like little babies because someone took ya or cells and then chasing the unfortunate noob and teamkill them. You dont have to be bad at qw to be a 4on4-mix-idiot...
Chosen
2010-03-25, 11:17
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397 posts

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Feb 2006
Maybe a ladder that counts points based on frags, as well as maps/games won? Like 0.01 points per frag or something. This will make the lower div teams fight for every frag against the top div teams, and not give up. This in combination with points for activity maybe could be something? Maybe a limit has to be set though, so tVS won't only keep on hammering the bottom div3 teams to get the most points possible Just a quick suggestion, feel free to develop it :E
2010-03-25, 11:30
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569 posts

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Feb 2006
I used to think the things you mention here is important. But now days I think the only way to attract same serious amount of players is to build a quakeworldlive-platform or facebook-app.

I've played some HoN (that is to dota what what quakelive is for q3). I realize we don't have the resources to do anything like that. But the concept makes it easy for a noob to get into a new game.

As for the marketing aspect, everyday I still see farmville-stuff on facebook. It can be an excellent marketing channel (providing the action is just one click away).
2010-03-25, 11:38
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459 posts

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Mar 2008
My only point was that mixes is not gonna attract one single new player into 4on4 as it is now. If existing players wanna play mix til they drop, feel free. I somehow doubt that is the way to go if you want to become really good though. Without bothering to go into an argument about that again, I think in short that playing mixes mostly results in developing bad routines that mostly won't work vs proper clans.
2010-03-25, 11:41
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93 posts

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Apr 2006
blAze wrote:
But it is a problem to the scene though. If the only enjoyable quaking for us is reduced to 2 officials against fusion and sr, what's the point anymore. Back in the days top clans were praccing together all the time. Somehow there is very little left to play.

I can imagine how boring QW has become for TVS.

If you guys go that is a great team gone. SR has already lost some great players and soon it will happen to others:/
2010-03-25, 11:44
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Apr 2006
blAze wrote:
Waiting is the biggest pain in qw.

Drives me fucking insane and is fast becoming the reason QW is going to be uninstalled.
2010-03-25, 11:46
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93 posts

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Apr 2006
What is the main reason for the big Swedish players quitting qw?

How could we get oldskool teams and players back?

More active leagues is a good idea.
2010-03-25, 12:03
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462 posts

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Jan 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
Playing mix with idiots sure is painful. Div0 players whining like little babies because someone took ya or cells and then chasing the unfortunate noob and teamkill them. You dont have to be bad at qw to be a 4on4-mix-idiot...

Stealing items is so normal that it doesn't bother me. It's when you have armor and weapon and some noob, who also has armor and weapon, starts to bore his weapon to you, instead of say, helping you to get the quad that is coming up. Then I really don't know what to think. Somekind of brain activity should be a requirement to play quake. Maybe add some iq test to the next version of ezq.
2010-03-25, 12:09
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
Yeah its a difference between being bad and making really bad decisions. I think most ppl know what to do but lack the skills to do so in many situations.
Chosen
2010-03-25, 12:14
News Writer
283 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
People are thinking macro (big) here rather than micro (small)... on the macro scale I think we're not doing too bad - we have nquake, active ffa server(s), great resources for demos, info, and spectating, and we also have division 3 of the EQL for new players to compete in.
Micro might be where the difference is made though - I'm talking about new players being engaged in conversation, invited to join clans, and fielded in pracs / eql matches. Most eager new players find their way onto the forum, and we have a transfers section where the occasional beginner asks if any clans have a space for them... perhaps we need another clan or two in division 3 who are eager to take on these new players and show them the ropes. It's this move which will get them properly hooked, and from there they can catch the eye of div2 clans for future seasons, etc.... they are firmly on the qw ladder to Milton.
2010-03-25, 12:42
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459 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Since this seems to be a relatively active thread, which is quite important as well I've tried to come up with an objective list of ideas that could contribute to recruitment / keep players in the scene, and another list of reasons why people lose interest / don't start with QW from what have been said:

IDEAS:

* Money (perhaps duel tournaments are most suited for this)
* Emphasize on the fun part. (less "pro" talk)
* KTK Timeout feature (one player on a server is AFK for f. ex 3 mins -> autokick)
* 4on4 is QW's strength compared to other FPS games. Use this as a selling point.
* Play more yourself (by playing more yourself, others will play more as well seeing theres activitiy on the servers)
* Newbie tournaments.
* Schedule your games FAR in advance. This way we could get nice coverage and extra tension around the games
* New maps / mappool.
* Advertise better for QW. Many young gamers these days don't even know what QW is.
* MORE TOURNAMENTS!
* Bot leagues with an award system (maybe make something like this http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/LGC active again).
* Include newbies / low-div players in high-div clans / matches.
* More drama! And shit-talkers (maybe Sassa could do some coaching here)
* Just listen to Stev
* Kick idlers in mix games faster
* Ladder / ranking system. Could be nice for both 1on1 and 4on4.
* Develop QW-live. Possibility to play QW inside a browser.
* Advertise through facebook / other net communities
* Engage new players in the community. Show them some of the old classics (griffin / dag games) and advertise when the new heroes are playing (milton / locust / locktar / avenger / etc). The eager ones will then start to take part in the community by themselves.

REASONS WHY WERE NOT GETTING NEW RECRUITS / WHY PLAYERS ARE QUITING:

* Numbers of players playing.
* Scene becoming too "Pro".
* Waiting time (prewar. zzz).
* MM3. (Teams really starting to get the most out of ventrilo / mumble / TS which can result in even more uneventy )
* Map pool. (Both duel and 4on4.)
* Graphics are poor compared to newer games. Young people with young computers wants fancyshmancy games.
* Summer break. Inactivity during summer + people get too high on real life to bother to come back.
* Teams refusing to play better teams. (This is quite unique for online gaming I think, as in regular sport its concidered quite an honor to play the best teams / players around when you're quite unknown yourself)
* Age of the current players (Were getting older and older :-|)
* No one bothers to schedule their matches. (If we improve this part, I think waiting time could be reduced by alot in officials games as well.)
* "Secret Community". Young players simply don't know what QW is.
* Division whine. (Every time a league starts its the same. Makes the work less rewarding for the people actually trying to do something nice for the scene with their spare time)
* People playing Poker, QuakeLive, WoW, other games instead of QW but still hanging around in the community. Shame on you.
* Mixes are too one folded. Long delays, only DM3.
* Many "idiots" in mixes. Mixes should be the introduction to team play, but the pros yell at the nubs, and the nubs yell at the pros for being too "pro"
* Top teams struggling to get pracs.
2010-03-25, 12:57
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569 posts

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Feb 2006
Rikoll wrote:
* Teams refusing to play better teams. (This is quite unique for online gaming I think, as in regular sport its concidered quite an honor to play the best teams / players around when you're quite unknown yourself)

This is not true. Shit football players like to play vs other shit div8 players. I heard about quite a few teams that dissolves after climbing from div8 to div6, so they can start again in div8. The only ones that want to play vs considerably better players are the ones about to go pro.
2010-03-25, 13:05
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133 posts

Registered:
Dec 2008
I see the only way:
Someone from QW community must become dictator of the world.
People must be obliged to play qw for at least 2 hours/day.
Soccer and other nonsense must be bunned.
Toutnaments must be organised with 1000000000$ prize.

Try! GL ;-)
2010-03-25, 13:24
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
Im not sure about the "more maps" point. Seems like new maps dont get much interest except when forced in leagues. I mean, ppl hardly prac 3 maps per prac as it is. Most pracs start with DM3, if youre lucky you get to play DM2 as well, if everyone havent dropped by now then maybe DM3 is played again or perhaps E1M2. Noone ever mentions other maps unless they are joking and/or trolling. Seems like the 3 maps we have are good enough.

But feel free to start a custom map tournament or include some custom maps in eql12/nqr12 and see what happens. Its a wheel of fail again and again since after each time we try to play new maps ppl stop playing them as soon as the league ends. CMT1B wasnt that popular in EQL10 and now noone is playing it. It has been played 3 times since 21-12-2009 and that was when csn beat magnum44 in the eql10 bronze game
Chosen
2010-03-25, 13:48
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Mar 2008
cpma, or dmc! cpma can give us q3 players(best kind newbie they are), dmc(dunno it is alive or not) can give counter strike players. The wow players should stay at their fairyworld, qw has no virtual weddig.. map pool= if u sign up to a tourney, you are already in love with qw. dont discuss about map pool again pls, its off topic zzz.
2010-03-25, 14:08
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397 posts

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Feb 2006
new maps could definately be great, just too bad there are no good ones? maybe a map development project could be necessary?
2010-03-25, 14:41
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459 posts

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Mar 2008
Think we got enough maps, its just a matter of implementing them in a tournament that people want to participate in. Me for one would love a tournament with some of the old episode maps, like e3m7 & e1m3, but I'm fully aware that many wouldn't even sign up for something like that. I still think cmt3&4 are great maps as well, and cargo bay is looking promising even if its just in beta stage. I also from my experience think its a bad idea to run a tournament with both TB3 and new custom maps. Either roll with TB3, or only 3/5 non-TB3 and blend them together to a new map pool if the maps in the non-tb3 tourney gets popular enough.
2010-03-25, 22:00
Administrator
1024 posts

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Apr 2006
mipa wrote:
So it had nothing to do with Mogge and I do disagree that you get better with a much better player in your team. I think I've developed as a tdm-player the most when the team consists of people with somewhat similiar skill level. When you have someone better in your team, you're pretty much just depending on his input to the game. With players of similiar skill level you need to take the responsibility to take power-ups and deciding on what to do with them etc.

So I don't think there's a big difference between 4 helpless newbies shooting with shotguns for 20 min, and 3 helpless newbies having rocket launchers and armors with the better player just clearing the map time after time - except that with 4 helpless newbies you're forced to learn how to do something about the icky situations yourselves.

Of course it had to do with mogge, perhaps not as much tactical as with TheEvilDog, but atleast he made it possible for us to make mistakes and not having to run around the next 15mins with sg because of that.

It's nice to year that you feel that you have developed, and that you feel that you have developed the most in that way. I'm having experience that the way i suggested is the way that actually works best for me atleast.

It surely looks like it works for Fusion too since they went from not improving at all even though they played 24/7, to becomming really good a time after they recruited valla (which goes with my strategy again).

Sorry but are you serious? It had everything to do with us having one better player and the rest of us pretty equal which I stated several times.

You must surely be kidding too since you wrote the bold part... What did I write in my previous post?
Quote:
The 3 rookies/players + 1 more experienced/skilled is what I think works best if you want your team to improve (Hello Fusion lately, exactly the same after valla joined...) . Not someone a lot better (like murdoc was playing in div3) but still a bit better. When the rest of the team has improved, recruit another dude that is a bit better than your best current guy..

I think you disagree with someone elses statement, cause I didn't say what you imply.
2010-03-25, 22:37
Administrator
383 posts

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Dec 2006
Rikoll, good effort listing all that stuff, although I doubt some of it will really make the difference between new players taking up / sticking with QW or not (timeout features?).

Some people might find a column I wrote in late 2002 on the subject of bringing new players into QW relevant to this discussion (scroll down past the commentary bit): http://web.archive.org/web/20040812184650/http://www.challenge-smackdown.com/div_neu/columns/hangtime/comments.php3?pageid=1821&aid=30459
Point #2 has definitely been handled well by nQuake and qw.nu is a great step in the right direction for #1.

As for point #3, playing in a mostly 'newbie' clan tks has changed my view somewhat. It seems that players can actually pickup 4on4 reasonably quickly IF (and this is the crucial point) they get coached by other players. Meaning being given plenty of advice over mm3, being shown what to do in given situations, plus config help etc. They still need a tough skin to put up with all the beatings they will take in the early weeks but until recently I would never have believed that players could reach div2 standard 4on4 in the space of a few months playing.

This kind of goes back to the point Darff made actually - thinking micro rather than macro. If players are brought into a clan environment early and given assistance - just on the little things - rather than left to their own devices I think they have more chance of sticking with the game.
2010-03-26, 08:35
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397 posts

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Feb 2006
had a similar skill development to you fog.. as noobs in campbusters we managed to lure superstars like vladde, memil and slabby into our clan.. this made us go from bottom div2, to winning div2 and then finishing 5th in div1 the following season!
i think we had a quite clear picture of how we were supposed to play, but the coaching from these players definately helped us develop in a much faster way than we otherwise would've done! this is definately the best way to success and I hope we will see more of it.. we have some good examples of it with valla in fusion and i also think avenger in revolution has a similar role.. with him as a more experienced player in the team the others have done great development. another good examples from back in the days was the finnish clan Eläintarha. players like t-moe, jkova and mel became solid div1 players after being coached by diki.

it's also very benefical for teams with more experienced players to take in a less experiences one like sr did with their whole sr2 project.. i think this should be done by more clans and i would like to do it myself, but unfortunately my clan doesn't agree with me :/
2010-03-26, 08:43
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485 posts

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Feb 2006
HangTime wrote:
As for point #3, playing in a mostly 'newbie' clan tks has changed my view somewhat. It seems that players can actually pickup 4on4 reasonably quickly IF (and this is the crucial point) they get coached by other players. Meaning being given plenty of advice over mm3, being shown what to do in given situations, plus config help etc. They still need a tough skin to put up with all the beatings they will take in the early weeks but until recently I would never have believed that players could reach div2 standard 4on4 in the space of a few months playing.

From what starting point? How much actual playing time? I suspect you have to live on the servers. Just saying lets not make it sound like you can think your way up. Have to play loads, no way around it.
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