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General Discussion
2009-11-10, 14:22
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I hope discussion about the antilag feature can continue here.

Imho, its a great feature

lets go back in time. back in 2002 or something, a new command in ezquake was generating some discussion. most of the "important" qw players were against it, as it was considered "cheating" because it helped with lg aim. it was an "important change in qw" so it wasnt allowed. for years.
some years later and 50% less players in qw, it is allowed without fuss. noone argues about it as its part of modern qw
as u already know it, im talking of cl_fakeshaft or cl_truelightning.

Today, qw has another groundbreaking feature. Lets learn with errors from the past and allow it as soon as it is stable. or do you need some years just to get used to the idea, just like what happened with fakeshaft?

I played with it, and dispiste its not perfect, yet, its a great feature that will bring back competitivity in non-scandinavian countrys.

flame is not needed, dont do it. Reply only if you have something to say. thanks
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2009-11-10, 14:31
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Jan 2006
I'm sure the discussion in this thread will be very rich of deep thoughts and intelligent arguments from both sides. You gave an excellent example by comparing it to fakeshaft and from that implying stuff.
</sarcasm>

"Lets learn with errors from the past and allow it as soon as it is stable." Saying this on this forum is like firing a lighter in an explosives storehouse.

"back in 2002 or something, a new command in ezquake" ezQuake started in 2004
2009-11-10, 14:42
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2009-11-10 "war was began" just to quote a well known site /b/
Chosen
2009-11-10, 15:16
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Jan 2006
pardon my ignorance
im sorry if the facts are diferent than what I wrote

I have seen this chaos before about "unwanted" that became "wanted" features.
imo comenting it on newsposts isnt the proper place to do it.
As always, i just want qw to be better than it is. I believe this feature will do it.
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2009-11-10, 15:40
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Nov 2008
Nice thread, not the best start from Mushi, but a start at least

Ok i wanna write my opinion, but i will write about the idea of clientside hitting with sg ssg and lg, not with the actual qqshaka implementation.. Because it must be improved a lot yet in order to get this feature working.

I personally like it, well yes it's normal because i'm a hpb ofc, and i get my shaft working with it (my lowest ping is 80ms). When i ask people that don't like it why they don't like it, they often say:

It's not fair because the guy with higher ping is on advantage, just because i can't avoid his shaft
Now my opinion about that:
1: Often people with high ping is less experienced at qw than people with low ping.
2: Most qw players ping less than 50ms, specially good players, so why do you care?
3: Both players must agree to play with antilag, so you can keep the command in your servers, and disable by default, then only people who really need it will use it.
4: Please, the higher the ping the harder to avoid? Hahahaha withouth this, the higher the ping, the harder to HIT, hitting is more important, at least for me, and also shaft is an instant weapon, if you are not holding +lg down, no one will avoid it. So you can see this from hpb's eyes, as you all should know, shaft in 90ms almost doesn't work. So whats more fair, playing 12ms vs 90ms, when the 90ms guy can't hit shit, or when the 12ms can't avoid shaft, but both players are actually hitting what they hit? :E I tryed both, and trust me, it's more fun when both hit.
5: "I'm a lpb, i often win at pov, but now with antilag most people out of my country beat me, ban!!" (just a joke)

Conclusion:
I like it. But if you aren't going to keep this, make it at least non-default, or something like that, so people withouth money enough to get a good connection, can have fun games and learn some with good players, instead of being rookie and also playing with 3x ping than a player who is 3x better than you, which is 9x more frutrasting.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-10, 15:45
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As far as I have understood, the main problem with antilag is that it allows you to do impossible things. Fakeshaft is just a visual change. With fakeshaft you can't shoot people from behind walls, or kill someone from in front of you when he is actually already moved behind you, etc.

Maybe I understand it wrong, but to me it would seem that the more you lag, the easier it gets because everthing remains the same but your enemy just keeps getting slower. If you ping up to 3000 then you have 3 whole seconds to shoot an enemy that doesn't move with your 50% lg.
2009-11-10, 15:45
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Mushi:
It's just my experience that when you start happily running around "this is great this is great", sooner or later someone who doesn't share your joy will come and slap you in the face with his opposite stance.

For starters, can you define when this should be enabled? Always enabled? Forcibly? For duels? For all duels? Only if both players agree? Only for high ping duels? What is high ping?
What about 4on4 and all the ping scenarios that can occur? How many players must agree? Forcibly enable? On some ping conditions? What about border conditions?

blAze:
qqshka said fixing it so that this doesn't happen is easy. Probably he is too tired of the stupid shit thrown at him in certain comments to be able respond to some real concerns like this. Server can recognize the scenario:
- lagged player hits you in his delayed POV
- however server reality shows you are not in direct visibility anymore
-> you don't receive the "lagged" hit coz of that
2009-11-10, 15:54
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Yeah Johnny, but it still doesn't fix the problem of evasive movement, where in server reality you have already circled around the enemy, but on his screen you are still in front of him, etc.
2009-11-10, 16:00
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JohnNy_cz: Only if both players agree. Like i'm going to play with buffy, he's few years better than me so he easily beat me. My ping sucks and he want a fun game, so both agree to play with antilag because it's more close and fun for him, and less frustrating but better for learning to me. He will win anyway.(Just an example)

About 4on4, or 2on2, i think it should be voted, so people do it if they are playing a team with high ping, but they should do it for smortmanship. Not forced to it.
Number of votes: No idea, i'm not in the drama either in the tdm action. I let more experienced tdm'ers discuss it.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-10, 16:18
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johnny:
Its just my experience or those that "slap me in the face with his opposite stance" tend to agree with me years later.
those with good memory remember the discussion about fakeshaft. Which i relate with this feature in particular because once again: a) it "benefits" more a small amount of players; b) it caused serious drama, most of active players didn't want it at the time; c) some years later its allowed
I hope this sequence of events won't happen with antilag.

I hope ezquake devs fix the problems (if any - im assuming there are) so we players can take benefit from less lagged qw and thus have more fun with it.

Imo it should be default on all gametypes and allowed on all leagues. much like fakeshaft in 2009.

I think ppl are a bit nervous after the flaming on the comments. I think we should calm down and let the devs do their work.
Love,
mushi


edit: imo a series of events led to the mess in the comments. from my pov its a great feature for everyone and should be allowed on all leagues / servers. Lets wait and see
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2009-11-10, 16:19
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"Maybe I understand it wrong, but to me it would seem that the more you lag, the easier it gets because everthing remains the same but your enemy just keeps getting slower. If you ping up to 3000 then you have 3 whole seconds to shoot an enemy that doesn't move with your 50% lg."

I'm not sure why you think that it gets easier as your ping increases? The server is still going to be sending you the same number of updates/second whether you have 66ping or 13, so you're going to see the enemy players move in exactly the same manner? I suppose if hit detection was done on the client side (which is very very wrong imo) then you could temporarily delay new packets/increase your ping and make it seem like the player had stopped moving... But if it was a server side calculation based on where you and your target were x ms ago then I can't see how this could be exploited. Particularly if it were to say, use your average latency from the last 30seconds but excluding the most recent 10seconds? Having a low jitter connection would be important for accuracy in that case...
2009-11-10, 16:24
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Nov 2008
The higher the ping the easier, because enemy can't avoid your beam that's all. Also if you are facing a 3000ms guy, just don't agree to play with antilag with him. Ez? Or if you guess/notice he's trying to exploit this shit. I just want this to play with my high skill - low ping friends, not need to play with this always, neither in competitions or so... Hmm not sure if i'm explaining my point clearly.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-10, 16:42
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driz wrote:
I suppose if hit detection was done on the client side (which is very very wrong imo)

Umm, isn't that precicely what this feature is all about? Let's not forget that two evidently knowledgeable (if hostile) devs seemed to think that this idea is fundamentally flawed and unfixable, so I think there is more to it than just "fixing some issues".
2009-11-10, 16:43
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Jan 2009
I think the point about the "harder to avoid beam" is that the beam looks as if it's missing you and still your health is decreasing.

Scenario:
Player HPW is keeping his/her crosshair spot on player LPB and fires -> LG hits.
Player LPB in turn sees the shaft beam say 1 second later. It will then be rendered where he/she was 1 second ago and then be rendered as a miss (given that LPB strafes), but it will still count as a hit.

Dunno if I got that right, but it's how I've understood things with the dodging part.
2009-11-10, 16:48
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time! wrote:
The higher the ping the easier, because enemy can't avoid your beam that's all. Also if you are facing a 3000ms guy, just don't agree to play with antilag with him. Ez? Or if you guess/notice he's trying to exploit this shit.

Well, avoiding the otherone's shaft with evasive movement is a huge part of pov. There is nothing to exploit, I just used 3000ms as an example to underline the problem. The problem remains the same with lower pings, it's just less evident if you don't stop and think about it.
2009-11-10, 16:49
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Exactly conus, well that 1 second is not 1 second, time depends of both player's ping.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-10, 17:31
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Feb 2006
I think improving hit-scan weapons but leaving projectiles untouched is bad. I think they are already to powerfull compared to RL/GL.

Imagine playing a 8x39ms game on e1m2. The sg is already a powerfull initial weapon. With the improved hitscan, it will almost be on the level of q3 mg.
2009-11-10, 17:35
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Apr 2006
blAze wrote:
driz wrote:
I suppose if hit detection was done on the client side (which is very very wrong imo)

Umm, isn't that precicely what this feature is all about?

The original proposal was client-side hit detection, but spike's one uses server-side backwards reconciliation.
2009-11-10, 17:42
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May 2006
I'll make a small notice here:

1. The first post is definitely biased, but mushi quickly regretted it afterwards. As Johnny pointed out, please keep this as objective as possible and avoid praising the feature as it's apparently a sensitive issue for everyone right now.
2. You have two issues to solve here from what I gather: How it feels / how it works.
2a. How it feels. Please, if you are testing how this feature feels, test it on both Renzo's and bigfoot's servers as I'm sure both would like feedback equally much and has about the same dev-resources to act according to feedback.
2b. How it works. There are to this date two different implementations of the feature. I'll leave it to mushi to sort out how to deal with that in this thread.

Good luck.
---Where can you see lions? Only in kenya! Come to kenya we've got lions.
2009-11-10, 17:54
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I agree with #18
Chosen
2009-11-10, 19:15
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Stev wrote:
server-side backwards reconciliation.

What does that mean? How does it work?
2009-11-10, 21:23
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blAze wrote:
What does that mean? How does it work?

The server receives a +attack packet from a client 60ms away, and then works out where everyone was 60ms ago when trying to decide if there was a hit or not.

It's generally a better way of doing things, if for no other reason than it means that dishonest clients (as demonstrated in bigfoot's pov demo) will have to cheat the old fashioned way instead of just telling the server "I hit that guy, I swear!", but it still means that the visual representation of the beam lags way behind your model against 100ms+ guys.
2009-11-10, 22:21
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Ok, but the same problem remains that you are hit from the position that you made an evasive movement already to another position. To me that would seem to only effect on the efficiency of aimbot cheating, which imho is a total non issue. If there is any kind of bot or cheat in the round, the round is 100% ruined whether the bot was 10% efficient or 100% efficient.
2009-11-11, 18:13
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Jan 2006
:-)
add it, might be funnier to play with..
2009-11-12, 15:39
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Dec 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkZLJeQ1Nhc

As far as I understand this video is recorded from demo.
And you can see effects of antilag.
(I may be wrong as I have never played it)


To make it clear: I do not vote neither for nor against antilag.
2009-11-12, 16:52
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Nov 2008
se-sss: If my eyes are working ok that's not QuakeWorld :E And you should try it, at least few pov's.

And for all qw people: I don't see any valid point in order to not enable it. And no one is whining, so...
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-12, 17:39
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time! wrote:
And for all qw people: I don't see any valid point in order to not enable it. And no one is whining, so...

I take it you don't see other posts at all then. Many valid points have been raised in this and the original news post that have not been addressed at all. Responses are mainly to complete non-issues like cheating.
2009-11-12, 18:05
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Well, if there's a valid post that is not taken in #5 let me know.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-11-12, 18:38
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Apr 2006
The fact remains that no solution has been put forward to the two major gripes with this.

1) You suffer hits from the enemy's lagged point of view, giving you less time to dodge.

2) The visual representation of the beam lags behind you even though you are still getting hit, making it more difficult to even tell when you are being hit.

Both are disadvantages to the person being shot by the lagged player, and I doubt many people would be happy with that in a league situation (including me with my current disgusting 64ms).

However, I still want the feature for practicing povs and playing for fun! Continue development, please!
2009-11-12, 21:01
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As a lagging player you have less time to dodge too, low ping player is hitting you in server reality, but you get the info after the delay given by your lag.
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