blAze: let each player vote seems good compromise to me; what you suggest is not a compromise, opt-in as explained many times already, div1 tb3 - who decides that? also your clan doesn't get to choose in which div it will play
also letting people vote naturally leads to smaller map pools as I've also explained before

Well, I dont agree with your explanation no matter how many times you would repeat it. To me it is a compromise that lets custom fans play customs every now and then compared with not playing them at all (=no compromise solution).


Just like you said: "let each player vote" (in div1) after the divisions are set. There is no point for div4, 3 and 2 to decide what is played in div1 and vice versa. If you want to enforce people in other divisions to play what you want them to play it only proves my point of the non compromising attitude.

Remember this: Admins make the tournaments and they set rules and maps. Play with their rules or don't sign up. People will say: withouth players there is no tournaments so admin's must help the community blah blah blah... Lies, withouth players admins could make tournements with more or less success , so respect. Also they are doing it for fun, not for money, or something. Just because they love QuakeWorld and they want all ppl to have fun.

The poll I was referencing had tb3 as an option.

The poll with no tb3 had 104 votes. Presumably 26 people were too angry to vote for shitty kenya

blAze: Sorry I fail to see any signs of compromise in "my clan will always only play tb3 against your clan no matter what".
TB5 is a compromise between kenya and TB3. Enough from me on this thread.

If it makes no difference to you why would you vote.

Well, if tb3 got the majority vote and would act like you are now, then there would be no opt-in, but instead "tb3 only, people have decided". Clearly, there is a difference.

I notice you made no further comment about the division divide in this matter.

it's your div 1 colleagues that decide what is played not the evil kenya noobs from the lower bracket. maps are chosen by the competing teams for each match, check out the eql rules page if you don't believe this. stop spreading that myth about enforcement of maps by lower divs.

the compromise us lower skilled, newer players undertake is that we play with you on your homemaps from the last 10 years even though there is no objective reason to do so other than 'it's always been like that'. the reason we do this is because we want to keep the qw scene as a whole intact and not support splitting up this small, some say dying, community by introducing various mappools.

i'll play a dm3 if you play a cmt1, sounds like a fair compromise?

"No map can be played more than once." So in playoffs even if neither of the teams would want to play customs, they have to, unless the match ends 3-0. Check out the eql rules.

Also we ware talking about deciding on the map pool, not played maps. 2 different things that you got mixed up.

I don't really care about it beeing kenya or not - if EQL admins were the ones to decide. But saying "we listen to you" and then host a poll here for users who doesn't even have to be participating in EQL is just really fucking stupid. Could as well be one q3 player with 22 accounts deciding the map pool.

gg, really

And no: I'm not one of those who never have played these kenya maps, I'm actually pretty good at them. It's just that I think they are bad maps in the same manner as I think e1m7 is a bad map for 4on4.

lol they changed that *today*, good for you i guess. (btw i don't endorse this change and also it applies to playoffs only)


it seems you got the 2 things mixed up to begin with because you are the one talking about 'enforcing of maps that are played'.

I thought it was clear what I meant within the context. Let me clarify then. There is no reason for the evil noobs in lower divs to enforce custom maps into the map pool for div1 where almost no one wants them there.

blaze, aside from the arguments over the maps and such, what are you worried about to begin with then?
if you can scare admins enough to bring doubt to the entire argument, what makes you think they will punish anyone in div1 for making up their own rules, after all, if you dun like it you can always not play and DESTROY quakeworld innit?

This is true, but it's highly unlikely that it actually did happen. The poll was not perfect, but I highly doubt it was exploited like that, and I'd say you'd probably agree with me if we were both being honest.


While I'm sure you are an extremely good player on all maps, I'm also fairly sure that you decided you hated all custom maps long before I hosted those cmt mixes during the summer.

not clear at all actually what you meant. especially since the point about enforcing maps to be played is only valid after the change of rules you quoted yourself.

before this change the point you're claiming you're making, and made before in this thread, was a moot one because what does it matter if there is a bigger mappool at disposal if the clans don't have to select any of the extra maps and are free to play tb3 only? how can you call that enforcement?

after this change it's slightly different, i agree. in a playoff situation it now could happen that two clans that both don't want to play cmt have to play it. i don't think that's a desirable situation. it still think it's important to have a single standard of maps within the community. it might be that this small minority of rounds (playoff, both clans want tb3 only, decider is needed) is a prize some div 1 players have to pay in order to keep qw moving forward? we were talking about compromise earlier...

this minor concern is only debatable after the rule change however. for the most part your claim of enforcement is and has been totally invalid.

edit: in reply to #132. damn this thread is moving fast.

why are the ones rooting for cmts so quick to call everyone else a cmt hater? cant you just accept that quite a few players DONT WANT more maps without judging them to be cmt haters and purists?

I was just talking specifically about Xantom. Blaze's position is based around the fact that he doesn't want any new maps at all for any reason, so calling him a cmt hater would be redundant, and I'm not exactly sure about you yet so I won't comment.

A single clan in div1 can enforce every other clan play those maps if they are included in the pool. How can you not call that enforcement?


qw moves forward when people get better at it. Introducing new maps takes qw backwards, all the way to the year 1996. What could be a thrilling display of raw skill, becomes a noobshow.


div1 playoffs are probably the most important games in the scene. I wouldn't call it minor concern.

are you sincerely going to tell me that the players of today would be reduced to xboxlive piles of flesh should we try to learn new maps?

come on.

No, unlike you mr "unlikely"/"I highly doubt it", I'm a rational person and found my opinions by experience rather than guessing.

i laffed

so now we're talking about a clan in div 1 enforcing other div 1 clans. see how that contradicts your statement about 'div 2,3 and 4 clans enforcing div 1 clans'?

in your example of 'a single clan' that wants to play the cmt maps, that would mean for the remaining clans they would be 'enforced' to play out of their 14 rounds 1 round on a cmt map. that's 1 map out of 14. and that's assuming the kenya clan in question will choose cmt as their homemap every time, otherwise the count drops to 0 maps cmt.

see, the problem with your argument is that it's contradictory. you say div 1 clans don't want cmt maps and that cmt maps are the will of the lower divs. at the same time you say div 1 is being enforced to play those - while there is no way this could happen if there wasn't a demand for cmt maps in div 1 itself. sorry, it's not working out.

If you're talking in absolutes all the time then you're wrong most of the time. I deal in what is likely and what is probable; Nothing is certain except that nothing is certain, Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge, etc., etc.

No, hence the smileys. Sincerely I'm telling you that the level of gameplay in new maps is extremely low compared to tb3 and maybe cmt4. Maybe lower div players speccing the game don't realize it, I honestly do not know? But as a player on the field I know that I've been winning playoff games in div1/qnc with ridiculous crappy gameplay where no one knows wtf they are doing, except Milton maybe.

i don't know what to tell you, if pretty much 100% of div1 doesnt want to play the "kenyas" then i guess you could arrange that amongst yourselves, im merely attempting to argue for something i think would make the game more interesting, i'm officially so done with this now <3

It doesn't contradict anything, it complements it. Pressure from lower divs to include customs in the map pool enables a single team in div1 to enforce every other team in div1 to play customs. We all know you know exactly what we are talking about no matter how much you want to play with words.

Stev, yes 10% of pracs and yes that is quite good but below that is the same as almost not being played.


I do so because during EQL9 we proved that a tournament can do well with only TB3, so even if there are people who dislike TB3 they are such a minority that they do not matter. So what I am saying is that those who want to see kenya in tournaments should support tournaments that have kenya even if they are not the maps they want.

You play in a tournament I run and you are free to go ahead and express your opinion on it and have me listen. If you don't I at least won't listen. The thing is, I need at least statistics that show that people are not only crying out for kenya but also playing them in order to support them because when I am think about the rules of a tournament, how it should be run, map pool etc I only care about what will make people play in it, what will make it successful. I don't like making decisions based on what people say because most of the time they will not follow up on it.

I am an easy person to convince when it comes to how a tournament should be run, just show me that it works. Just show me that the maps are played and I will support them, show me that the rules help the tournament and I will support them etc.

Time! with kenya I mean not established maps, such as episode maps or cmt. Aerowalk and ztndm3 are established, played and liked, nothing to argue about there. You also have to make a difference between duel players and tdm players, while many play both some don't. Also I am gonna repeat myself here, I do not care if a map is "good" or "bad", I care if it is played.

blAze, yea right...
it's div 4's fault that USSR wants to play something besides tb3. who is twisting shit around here lol

My thoughts about kenya maps..
what is so unique in qw? We have players who can backward bunny trough the whole map, with lighning reflexes in any situations, they can use every part of the map, every fucking ramp, stairs, holes..etc. They shoot the fuck out of you even if u are hiding or spamming on their precious oldskool map. They are div 1 players and top duelers, who hate kenya(usually, but not everyone). they also inspire us(maybe not you, but me definitly ). I can understand that u want to defeat them, but dont chicken out, do it on their own battlefield(what is the greater challenge?). They are easier opponents on kenya maps. im not totally against it, but theese maps should prove their worth to the MAJOR!! part of the community, wich is not a fast fucking thing in this game. First i want to see some good games on theese maps, and dont tell me that noobish rumbling on ctm3-ctm1b is something enjoyable to watch, like the tb3 top clan matches. NOt for me, and im pretty sure not for a lot of qw players. If you pracc the new kenya maps, and u will beat theese top players, cos they dont know it well, they might leave the scene. I tried to dl a ztn or an aero(they were kenya too in the past) from Dag, or Griffin, i found just 3-4 games(from hundreds)....and i see no Dag or Griffin now. Learn from it, dont be an idiot, especially not when we have some talented team back from the past. As for eql 10, 1 clan should have 1 vote, this public voting is just gay, cos players from x4ffa, and from Teamfortress, and from spectator can vote also. And another thing... Lot of time i saw some inactive top players to specting the finals, or important games(for example at DRZ VS Slackers i saw Insane, Dragon...etc), and while they just enter qw(even as a spectator) there is a chance they will come back. I do not think that they are interested in specting kenya games. My english sux, i hope u get my point. My last post in this matter, gl hf

Stop playing stupid. USSR can enforce every other team in div1 to play kenya against their will, because kenyas are in the map pool in div1. Kenyas are in the map pool in div1 because of lower divisions refuse to compromise and let div1 play tb3 if majority there wants so. Personally I can not understand why couple of guys in div4 and div3 give a damn what is played in div1, it's not like it makes any difference to them whatsoever.