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QW.nu polls
2009-10-26, 22:23
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
Stev wrote:
zappater wrote:
Just for the hell of it I'll make sure there is a kenya TDM tournament running along side EQL next season so no matter what happens we can once and for all know, does people like to play kenya maps?

People enjoy serious competition (in fact, qw is driven by it, as you can see by looking at the gigantic activity spikes every time a league starts), and EQL is the only serious competition left, regardless of the map pool.

People won't care about some upstart side project nearly as much, no matter what the map pool is.

Sure but if people want to play kenya in 4v4 they better support it when they get a kenya only tournament. I will put it up and based on its success I will either go fully against kenya in all future EQL tournaments or support it.

I do not believe in listening to people saying what they want but instead looking at what they do.
2009-10-26, 22:28
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
zappater wrote:
Sure but if people want to play kenya in 4v4 they better support it when they get a kenya only tournament. I will put it up and based on its success I will either go fully against kenya in all future EQL tournaments or support it.

I do not believe in listening to people saying what they want but instead looking at what they do.

The problem is that some people want to play customs and some don't. Ideally everyone would get to play what they want but kenya side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will. Doing a kenya tournament won't really change any of that.
2009-10-26, 23:12
Member
793 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
some peeps prefer to go down with the sinking ship because they don't want to change a single thing.

they are afraid to try something new once in a while so they hold on to whatever little they have left. true story!
2009-10-26, 23:17
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
We have tried new maps plenty of times in eql, nqr and qnc and every time it was boring as fuck. So if we are scared that it will stay boring, isn't that a reasonable fear? Why would we want to change a single thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2009-10-27, 01:02
Member
119 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
blAze wrote:
Ideally everyone would get to play what they want but kenya side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will.

how eeeviiiillll >: O
2009-10-27, 06:53
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
#93
please learn something about previous eql and nqr seasons, we HAVE tried other maps but the best option for 4on4 is still tb3
seems like some ppl are prepared to sink the ship just to get to play a few more maps...
Chosen
2009-10-27, 08:49
Administrator
66 posts

Registered:
Jan 2007
What a fucking joke
2009-10-27, 09:27
Member
1435 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
blAze wrote:
The problem is that some people want to play customs and some don't. Ideally everyone would get to play what they want but kenya side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will.

The problem is that some people want to play tb3 only and some people don't. The tb3 only side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will.

And don't start with "clan can opt-in for tb5". When playing against your clan, it would HAVE TO be tb3 because YOU WANT so.

And how do you judge if maps were or weren't successful in previous seasons? By number of plays? Is ztndm3 or dm2 unsuccessful duel map and should be discarded then? Or are we back to "the map is bad simply because I don't like it, stfu"?
2009-10-27, 11:43
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Anyway, i dont think the tb3 side of the community or the cmt/whatever side of the community can survive on their own. Each side would probably have too few players to get any reasonable amount of clans left for tournaments.

So some sort of solution that cater to BOTH of these groups wishes is needed.
The only question is; What solution will make the most ppl stay and play the game? (yes i didnt mention new players coming in because i dont believe the map issue is a major factor there)

1. Removing one or more of the TB3 maps and replace it/them with another/other map/maps?
2. Clans can choose to play TB3 or TB3+other maps?
3. All clans must play TB3+other maps?
4. Other suggestions?

1. I dont see this working as most of the TB3 lovers have one of these as their favourite map or "home map". If one or more of these maps were to be removed it would most likely lead to a lot of these players to participate and i cant see how the qw community as a whole would survice that.

2. This option is what i would prefer and it was also used with success during the last season in NQR. Some say it is bad because some clans only have to prac 3 maps while others must prac 5. But wasnt that the point after all? Having fun while playing and learning new maps? Here is where the cmt part of the community contradicts itself. Yes cmt clans are "forced" to play TB3 vs the TB3 clans but wasnt the point to keep TB3 while adding a few new maps as well? What is so hard with playing a few games on TB3 only then?

3. I guess this option is what most cmt lovers would want (and have gotten this season as well as other seasons before). Still far from everyone (especially in the higher divisions) likes to play other maps than TB3. I have seen the cmt side saying stuff like "the cmt maps are good" "all you need is prac" "stop whining and start playing" "conservatism kills qw". Well the community isnt all that conservative after all. There have been numerous changes during the years. Clients, rules, servers, proxys, team configs, scripts, damage of some weapons, AND maps just to name a few. Sure there have been heated discussions but thats a part of coming to a conclusion. You cant just get an idea and start changing stuff without input from the other players. All in all there are maps that work for 4on4 outside of TB3 but as long as such a large part of the community doesnt agree on implementing them (noone have the exact percenteges of tb3 vs cmt) then i would go with the "clans opt-in for TB5" alternative.

4. Run yet another custom league and determine the interest. Just because 15-25 ppl have been mixing on cmt1b all summer it doesnt mean that the map is accepted widely in the community or that it even is a good map.

To conclude, i cant see at this point how forcing either side to play TB3 or TB5 would help the community as a whole. The opt-in solution is the most acceptable solution to the best of my knowledge for the time being. In my opinion most players will remain with the opt-in solution.

Who knows, maybe a greater part of the community will come to like cmt3 and cmt1b during EQL10? Or perhaps the cmt side will have to face the possibility that cmt maps aint that popular afterall. If the two cmt maps dont get played atleast 25% of the times TB3 are played then i seriously doubt we should continue playing them or atleast let the clans that want to skip them do so the next season.
Chosen
2009-10-27, 11:49
Member
459 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
Seems like decision have been made to play 5 maps at this point anyway. Lets settle with that for now and enjoy the upcoming games as much as possible? If the majority of people want to play TB3 it shouldn't be a big issue for the CMT haters anyway, as those teams are gonna pick one of TB3 maps to play. I for one can find it slightly boring to play teams that have close to perfected their teamplay on those respective maps, and gets in maplocks on the maps (DM2 and DM3 specially) for quite large amount of the time the map is played leaving the newer teams / players quiet chanceless to adapt to that level, ever. With the introduction of 2 more maps, it gives the newer teams a chance to compete on abit more equal level on the new maps, while the experienced teams will still have a huge probability to win the match totally since they will be better by a big margine on 3/5 maps. Which of course is well deserved for the amount of time they have put into the game.
2009-10-27, 12:00
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
The problem with new clans vs old clans (rookies vs veterans) is only adaptable to the last division (div4), besides no team in div4 will have perfected their teamplay on TB3 anyway. So for the other 3 divisions the argument is that the weaker teams should have the possibility to learn a new map to score some easy points as long as the other clans dont pay much attention to it? In what whay does this help the weaker clans get better on TB3? They will spend their time practising maps noone knows if they will remain for another season thus making them fall further behind on TB3...

In a tournament like smackdown it would be more reasonable perhaps since teams are not divided according to skill level.

Sorry Rikoll but you have mixed your arguments between rookie and veteran clans in order to make them true.
Chosen
2009-10-27, 12:06
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
blAze wrote:
The problem is that some people want to play customs and some don't. Ideally everyone would get to play what they want but kenya side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will. Doing a kenya tournament won't really change any of that.

I know, the only thing I am saying is that if I put in the time to create a kenya only dubble elim tournament then the kenya lovers can put in the effort to either create new clans only for that tournament or get their current clans to play in it. No matter what the only thing I am trying to do would be to find out how big the support for kenya really is.

As it is I am not sure, i bet there are a lot of people voting for kenya because they want to see the div1 players play on those maps but would never think of putting in the effort. Really I don't like to try and read peoples minds I much prefer to go with empirical evidence and statistics whenever possible.
2009-10-27, 13:32
Member
459 posts

Registered:
Mar 2008
@ #101: I wouldn't call chosing a CMT map vs an experienced team as "scoring some easy points". But if the newer teams put more effort into learning them than the veteran teams and actually plays better than them and win, ofcourse they deserve it. And I wouldn't say its a goal to make everyone good @ TB3 either. The goal should be to make a fun and competetive tournament for as many players as possible. And if the majority wants something else than the veterans, the veterans should learn to adapt to the "new" rules and maps of the tournament the same way new people adapt to the current situation. I see it as only a sign of health that the tournaments develop in slightly different directions now and then.

With that said, which will be the last from me in this matter, I think the admins have done a great job so far and I personally won't care much whetever its tb3 + cmt1b + cmt3 or just tb3. Just looking forward to play some games, watch some games and compete in the best multiplayer game ever
2009-10-27, 13:48
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
There are no "experienced" clans in div4 that the "new" clans can choose new maps against, so yes the points scored will be easy...
In the other divisions it would just be boring as usual when some clans dont know the map but instead have focused on praccing the maps that have mattered season after season... i.e TB3

There are no evidence to suggest a majority of the players want either tb3 nor tb5...

Tb3 33% - 44
Tb3 + Cmt3 & Cmt4 33% - 44
TB3 + CMT1b & Midcit 32% - 42
Total: 130

130 votes here out of which we have no idea how many will play in eql (273 players at the time being)
Chosen
2009-10-27, 13:49
Member
386 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
zappater wrote:
As it is I am not sure, i bet there are a lot of people voting for kenya because they want to see the div1 players play on those maps but would never think of putting in the effort. Really I don't like to try and read peoples minds I much prefer to go with empirical evidence and statistics whenever possible.

Statistics still have to be interpreted, and a "kenya tourney" will most likely have between one and three absolutely terrible maps. Me and my clan will certainly be signing up for it depending on the map pool, but don't expect anyone who only accepts cmt1b or whatever to join.

You can't just lump all maps made in the last 13 years into the same category and judge them all based on the same limited set of data. If I held a tournament based only on 5 random terrible episode maps I wouldn't expect a lot of signups, but I wouldn't then judge all id software maps unloved and unsuitable for competitive 4on4.

Introducing cmt1b into the map pool wasn't done because "hey it's a crazy map that no one knows let's put it in to see people fuck around on it and it's different lololol". It was done because a lot of people genuinely like it and consider it an excellent map for competitive 4on4, far above almost all other maps. You can't just say "HAY GUISE IF YOU DON'T LIKE THESE MAPS THEN YOU DON'T LIKE ALL MAPS IN THE SAME VAGUE CATEGORY"!

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
2009-10-27, 13:55
Member
386 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
There are no "experienced" clans in div4 that the "new" clans can choose new maps against, so yes the points scored will be easy...
In the other divisions it would just be boring as usual when some clans dont know the map but instead have focused on praccing the maps that have mattered season after season... i.e TB3

There are no evidence to suggest a majority of the players want either tb3 nor tb5...

Tb3 33% - 44
Tb3 + Cmt3 & Cmt4 33% - 44
TB3 + CMT1b & Midcit 32% - 42
Total: 130

130 votes here out of which we have no idea how many will play in eql (273 players at the time being)

That's a 48% voter turnout? It seems perfectly acceptable to me. To be fair, you can't know how many of the 130 actually signed up for EQL (on either side of the vote, before you start attributing every absentee to LOLOL KENYA LOVERS) unless the admins do an audit of it, but I suspect the percentage is very high.
2009-10-27, 13:56
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
#105

I dont know where you get everything from, but from what i have seen most ppl criticising the cmt maps have not lumped them together. There are a few who just goes "cmt sucks" but we have always had those. There are precise and spot on critcism for all individual maps (including tb3) but the flaws of tb3 have had 10 or more years to be accepted, cmt1b has not and to be quite honest it will most likely be thrown out or replaced next season anyway judging by the history of cmt maps

just look at cmt4, ppl said it was so good and great for 4on4. why isnt it in the map pool now?

It would also be fun to see who these "lots of players" who likes cmt1b are...
Chosen
2009-10-27, 14:04
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
#106

for some reason 66% didnt click cmt1b+midcit but it doesnt matter because 48% voter turnout is no way near acceptable...
Chosen
2009-10-27, 14:24
Member
386 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
I dont know where you get everything from, but from what i have seen most ppl criticising the cmt maps have not lumped them together. There are a few who just goes "cmt sucks" but we have always had those. There are precise and spot on critcism for all individual maps (including tb3) but the flaws of tb3 have had 10 or more years to be accepted, cmt1b has not and to be quite honest it will most likely be thrown out or replaced next season anyway judging by the history of cmt maps

just look at cmt4, ppl said it was so good and great for 4on4. why isnt it in the map pool now?

Well I never agreed that cmt4 was the pinnacle of custom maps, but it's still not a bad map, and its flaws could be easily fixed by slightly changing the quad and ra rooms, but shouldn't it be replaced by better maps if people were not convinced of it? Isn't that a good thing?

Your attitude seems to be that "cmt1b might not work so we shouldn't try" and that's exactly why new maps fail. People assume that the new flavour of the month won't be around next season so they don't care to learn it, but what if we don't let that happen? I can think of no objectively better map to stop the endless cycle of maps than cmt1b and I'm going to do everything I can to support it, and I urge everyone else who cares to do the same.

Hooraytio wrote:
It would also be fun to see who these "lots of players" who likes cmt1b are...

Well, I'm in a clan with several of them without having to screen for it on signups (although I suspect my rhetoric and enthusiasm is contagious), and so far only one team of the many we have pracced have complained about cmt1b practice because of "lolol shitty kenya". That's already far better than cmt4 as far as I'm concerned, and it can only get better if the community supports it.
2009-10-27, 14:32
Member
386 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
#106

for some reason 66% didnt click cmt1b+midcit but it doesnt matter because 48% voter turnout is no way near acceptable...

It's not exactly the US presidential election (which was 61% afaik) but it's still quite high for a goddamn gaming poll. You're not going to get much higher unless you limit the sample size or make it mandatory, and mandatory voting just promotes ignorant decisions.

I agree that the poll isn't the definitive answer to the question of custom maps for various reasons, but to dismiss it is as an indicator is ridiculous.
2009-10-27, 14:41
News Writer
1267 posts

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Jun 2007
yes, the poll indicated that the community is divided. there is no consensus about how to proceed with the map issue
Chosen
2009-10-27, 15:16
News Writer
169 posts

Registered:
Dec 2007
Stev wrote:
Statistics still have to be interpreted, and a "kenya tourney" will most likely have between one and three absolutely terrible maps. Me and my clan will certainly be signing up for it depending on the map pool, but don't expect anyone who only accepts cmt1b or whatever to join.

You can't just lump all maps made in the last 13 years into the same category and judge them all based on the same limited set of data. If I held a tournament based only on 5 random terrible episode maps I wouldn't expect a lot of signups, but I wouldn't then judge all id software maps unloved and unsuitable for competitive 4on4.

Introducing cmt1b into the map pool wasn't done because "hey it's a crazy map that no one knows let's put it in to see people fuck around on it and it's different lololol". It was done because a lot of people genuinely like it and consider it an excellent map for competitive 4on4, far above almost all other maps. You can't just say "HAY GUISE IF YOU DON'T LIKE THESE MAPS THEN YOU DON'T LIKE ALL MAPS IN THE SAME VAGUE CATEGORY"!

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

There is a reason why I separated "empirical evidence" from "statistical evidence", understand why? If not look up what empirical evidence is.
If the kenya players are not prepared to support a kenya tournament just because it has bad maps my answer to them is, fuck off. If I put together a kenya tourney be happy support it and in the questionnaire/feedback thread coming up after it voice your opinions on the map pool but if you will only support kenya tournaments that contain the kenya maps "you" want then fuck you.

If you made a tournament using episodes only and I wanted to see more episode maps in tournaments I would support it by playing and then voicing my opinion on what episode maps should be used. I would not act like a spoiled brat only playing those episode maps that "I" think are good. Those who like kenya are probably divided into camps supporting ten different map combinations and I don't give a fuck if they are only prepared to support kenya as long as it is their set of kenya because then they are too few.

I will spend the next year trying to support kenya but unless I see 10% of all pracs being kenya by the end I am gonna say fuck it. A map that is played less than 10% of all pracs between clans is just not worth having in a tournament. And no, CMT1b was included because people have actually spent time playing it and showing that they want the map instead of whining on a forum.
2009-10-27, 15:27
News Writer
1267 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Btw, even if some custom map is played a lot in pracs you still have to check who is playing it. If its dependant on 3-5 clans playing it all the time between them it still shouldnt be added so that 25 other clans have to play it as well...
Chosen
2009-10-27, 15:28
Member
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Apr 2006
zappater wrote:
If the kenya players are not prepared to support a kenya tournament just because it has bad maps my answer to them is, fuck off. If I put together a kenya tourney be happy support it and in the questionnaire/feedback thread coming up after it voice your opinions on the map pool but if you will only support kenya tournaments that contain the kenya maps "you" want then fuck you.

I don't want to start some kind of vicious argument with you, but this is aggressive and unreasonable. You're dividing people into "Kenya" and "non-kenya" categories, ignoring the 3rd possibility that some people want to play in competitive tournaments with a map pool of 5 good maps. I don't want tb3 gone, and I don't want to play on bad maps.

I will give new maps a chance and I will play them if they are good, but saying something akin to "you either play all kenya or none at all" is a ridiculous black and white view of a complex issue, and your aggressive tone does nothing to strengthen your position.
2009-10-27, 15:32
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386 posts

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Apr 2006
zappater wrote:
I will spend the next year trying to support kenya but unless I see 10% of all pracs being kenya by the end I am gonna say fuck it. A map that is played less than 10% of all pracs between clans is just not worth having in a tournament.

Actually, with a pool of 5 maps, 10% is quite good. An equal share with the other maps would mean 20%, so a 50% uptake is pretty good for a new map.

Also, 10% is a fantastic figure if you're including dm3 mixes, but I suspect you took that into account when you said "pracs".
2009-10-27, 15:43
Member
357 posts

Registered:
Nov 2008
Kenya and non-kenya... Seems like kenya are custom maps and and non-kenya are ID maps, well, in your opinion zappater, people who like to play in aerowalk and ztndm3 (which are kenya) MUST play kenya tourneys and support it just because aerowalk and ztndm3 were accepted and they want it to stuck at 1on1 mappools? Nah. What i think is: There aren't "good" or "bad" maps, maps are neutral, you can like a map (you say the map is good, but it isn't, is just you liking it) or you can dislike it. Saying a map is "good" or "bad" sounds, at least for me, like you are the one who judge and all people accept your opinion. Wrong. Also some other people think a map is "good" if most players like it. Again wrong, if so, then we must go play wow, because a lot of people play wow and then is good? No point. I want to point that i'm not supporting kenya. I just play the maps i have fun with, and i don't play maps who bore me. I play this for fun, i'm not trying to make people think like me.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-10-27, 15:45
Member
119 posts

Registered:
Sep 2007
i would like to point out the argument doesn't lie in these ridiculous distinctions of "kenya" vs "non-kenya"

what's being argued here is what other maps are playable enough to be submitted for league play, nothing else.
it's more than reasonable to advocate tried and tested maps which are unshakeable, which isn't even the subject of this discussion.
but it doesn't mean by a long shot that tb3 is the only feasible mappool for a league JUST because it came with the game over a decade ago.
all i'm trying to do with it is to argue it as logically as one can.

suck a bag of dicks.
2009-10-27, 15:55
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
JohnNy_cz wrote:
The tb3 only side doesn't seem very open to any other option than enforcing everyone under their will.

Compromises suggested by tb3 side:
- opt-in
- tb3 for div1 because customs are far less popular in this div than in other divs

Compromises suggested by kenya side:
- ?

Quote:
And how do you judge if maps were or weren't successful in previous seasons?

I didn't?
2009-10-27, 15:59
Member
1435 posts

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Jan 2006
by taking pure stats.qw.nu data, e1m2 has 9% (yeah, dm3 mixes...)
BTW, duel maps "share distribution" is 34%, 22%, 20%, 11%, 11% (tb5) ... then nothing ... and then skull (6th most played non-dmm4 duel map) with .. 0.95%
2009-10-27, 16:04
Member
462 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Stev wrote:
Hooraytio wrote:
There are no "experienced" clans in div4 that the "new" clans can choose new maps against, so yes the points scored will be easy...
In the other divisions it would just be boring as usual when some clans dont know the map but instead have focused on praccing the maps that have mattered season after season... i.e TB3

There are no evidence to suggest a majority of the players want either tb3 nor tb5...

Tb3 33% - 44
Tb3 + Cmt3 & Cmt4 33% - 44
TB3 + CMT1b & Midcit 32% - 42
Total: 130

130 votes here out of which we have no idea how many will play in eql (273 players at the time being)

That's a 48% voter turnout? It seems perfectly acceptable to me. To be fair, you can't know how many of the 130 actually signed up for EQL (on either side of the vote, before you start attributing every absentee to LOLOL KENYA LOVERS) unless the admins do an audit of it, but I suspect the percentage is very high.

One thing you have to take into account with these votes is that you can't automatically count all custom votes for all custom variations. I for example voted for cmt4+cmt1b, but between tb3 and cmt3+cmt1b I'd vote tb3.
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