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Client Talk
2009-01-01, 18:32
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Jan 2006
It is known to some of you that there are scripts which can help you achieve greater speeds while performing strafejumps or when moving (silently, without jumping) forward in a map.

About a month ago a change has been done to the ezQuake code. This change makes allow_scripts 0 (which most of you use because the leagues require this) be MORE STRICT about scripts.
Since that change you cannot for example use the +moveleft command in any other way than having it bound to a key being it the only thing bound to it. E.g.:
bind a "+moveleft;myteamplaycheckalias"
That will not work anymore, you have to bind only the "+moveleft" and nothing else.

In my opinion this allows us to control better who is using which "helpers" in the game.
I've already received complaints from people who were using script which help you strafe left-right.
With such a script you don't have to release strafe-left key exactly in the moment when you press strafe-right, the script will "release it for you". I've been told that such behavior should be default and that it doesn't work like that already is a bug.
But now it is possible to implement this functionality properly in the client and allow everyone take benefit from it.

But I don't like to decide on such things by myself (I don't enjoy people yelling at me, really), so let's discuss it here. What else this new prevention will block for you and is it something that should remain allowed?
2009-01-02, 14:09
Moderator
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Quote:
I've been told that such behavior should be default and that it doesn't work like that already is a bug.
But now it is possible to implement this functionality properly in the client and allow everyone take benefit from it.

No, it's not a bug. Two opposite speeds that have the same value just nullify each other. Change forwardspeed to 300 and backspeed to 320 and see what happens when you press both directions at the same time.

I'm not going to quote more than that, but you said it yourself above; this change allows people to become faster, dodge better and do tricks easier. What this means is that you are changing QW once again, making some things possible to the people who can't do it the old way, and adding better movement capability to those people, again, who can't do it better the old way. And all this becomes with a change in client, and not from people trying to improve themselves.

(The benefit from this feature has been tested and proven by myself, other players (milton), and even you yourself said it has positive impact on moving ability, so the stuff above applies.)

I have said it many times, and I say it once again. I'm against changes that change the core gameplay of QW, and make it easier and requiring less practise. And I'm not the only one, lucky for me there are players considerably better than I am who feel the same, the problem is I don't think they are coming here to tell you about it though.


EDIT:

The problem with such stuff is always the fact that you IGNORE the human factor. People are differently skilled, take Milton for example. He is very good at strafing, he can do most of the tricks (if not all) and he can accelerate very good. Compare him to me: my strafing slows my speed down because I can't time the release/pushing of strafebuttons correctly. I can't do certain tricks because I don't have nimble fingers, however I can accerelate decently but not as good as Milton. I enable this strafe script or client feature and suddenly I have as good or even better strafes than milton. I still can't do the tricks he can, perhaps I can do more than before, but still not as much. I can accelerate my bunnies as fast as him.

All of this is not achieved by praccing or training, instead with single change in client. So what about Milton? He can't accelerate any faster, or do tricks any better. Perhaps his strafing wasn't perfect but only very good, now he can do it better. I gained 2½ things, he gained 1 thing, making me benefitting more (the worse player) from the stuff than he does (the better player), decreasing the skill gap in this particular part of the game.
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2009-01-02, 17:46
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Mar 2006
you should team up with apollyon and make queens of the qw stoneage tribute client.
now to the more objective part.
that script has been around for years (first fuhquake release) so 'they' are not changing qw once again.
and please dont drag milton into that mudpile , he will beat the living shit out of anyone(insert exceptions i am not aware of at the moment) even if they use the script.
and while were at it, (for the people out there whos human factor does not allow them to sense sarcasm, sarcasm on)
1. remove the ocrana leds they were added to make reading messages easier they took out the human factor: reading capabilities! OMFG.
2. r_drawflat/gl_max_size oh sweet baby jesus its all brown!
3. rgb colored teamskins, please someone find me that color in the quake pallete. in case you didnt get it people see in different contrasts.
4. (team|enemy)(quad|pent)skins !?!!!!!111einseins
(sarcasm off)
lets even take it further, what about short sighted people? do glasses count as a semi aimbot now because you can identifiy your targets easier?

but lets make a practiacal example by using your mathmagic
map: dm4
players: milton vs someoneusingthescript(lets call him zoner from here on)
- milton killed zoner in the mh room
- zoner spawns at tele top
now without the script zoner would try to get the lg dieing before reaching it
thats zoner: -1, milton: +1 = 2
with zoner using the script
zoner would reach the lg, but he would still die leaving extra cells
thats zoner: -1(again), milton: +3(the extra cells which could, roughly, kill a fresh spawned zoner 2 times) = 4 (oh shit dawg stop using the script milton has an advantage!)

the ability to reach items fast only is a valid point if people are already at a certain level(which is quite high) at which the script wont help anymore.

quakeworld has been changed over and over alot, bunnyhopping in general has been made easier too.
and just because you would like to keep sucking at strafing do not force other people to do the same.

bottom line is good players would not care because they would still win.

i hereby apologize to milton for making him part of my argumentation
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2009-01-02, 19:07
Administrator
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Jan 2006
No matter if it's on/off i think it should be included/restricted in the client as some people probably use it while others don't. Some might use it without even being aware of it. I didn't realise i was using it, but obviously it came from Def's über Quake installation which i used at some point in the past.

I think changes like this puts even more emphasis on the aiming skills, and that sucks. :p

(Btw, I just fired up Q3 (CPMA) to see what it's like in there, and they use the old type where you stop if you have both strafe buttons pressed at the same time.)
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2009-01-02, 19:14
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Jan 2006
Make it an option in the client so anyone can choose according to their preference, no reason to force anyone to use one way or the other. In my opinion it's oversimplification of the issue to say that the script way is better because on average your strafe speed is little higher. Personally I couldn't bunny any faster with it, I was only a bit faster in maps like pov where you just strafe and dont jump. On the other hand it's possible it made aiming harder. It's also more shaky in narrow places like ra top in dm3. At the moment I've chosen to play without it.
2009-01-02, 19:44
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Jan 2006
ban it!! BAAAN
2009-01-02, 20:23
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Jun 2007
That's the first time i've heard about it. So i decided to check how it's done in other dm games. Here's the list of some games that have this "bug": QW,Q2,vQ3,CPMA,WARSOW,HL DM,HL2 DM,Unreal,UT,UT2k4 (actually i've installed UT2k4, Q2&Q3, and HL DM just to check this xD )

And guess what? It's not a bug! It's math! -1 + 1 = 0! Who came up with idea that it should be different? For me it's cheat, like rj scripts.

If someone don't have enough hand coordination to press and release two buttons at the same time using his fingers, such script won't help him much, he'll suck at any FPS...
2009-01-02, 20:38
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Mar 2006
sassa wrote:
ban it!! BAAAN

(2)
https://tinyurl.com/qwbrasil - QuakeFiles
2009-01-03, 00:43
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42 posts

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Apr 2007
Never heard of this script either. In my opinion it would be best to implement it into ezquake so (almost) everyone could use it, still it has to give the player the choice of turning it on/off.

Someone paste the little thingie here so ppl can test, would also be good.
http://www.rocketz.se - a quakeworld blog in the 21st century
2009-01-03, 01:12
Member
51 posts

Registered:
Sep 2006
Here you are!

bind w "+mforward"
bind a "+mleft"
bind s "+mback"
bind d "+mright"

alias +mback "+back;inc nmback 1;if $nmforward > 0 then -forward"
alias -mback "-back;inc nmback -1;if $nmforward > 0 then +forward"
alias +mforward "+forward;inc nmforward 1;if $nmback > 0 then -back"
alias -mforward "-forward;inc nmforward -1;if $nmback > 0 then +back"
alias +mleft "+moveleft;inc nmleft 1;if $nmright > 0 then -moveright"
alias -mleft "-moveleft;inc nmleft -1;if $nmright > 0 then +moveright"
alias +mright "+moveright;inc nmright 1;if $nmleft > 0 then -moveleft"
alias -mright "-moveright;inc nmright -1;if $nmleft > 0 then +moveleft"

set nmback "0"
set nmforward "0"
set nmleft "0"
set nmright "0"

It's such a minor change imo, not really a unfair advantage like wallhacks or aimbots.. But maybe it's the small things that matter in this game.
2009-01-03, 14:07
Member
108 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
Ban it!
I have know about this script for some years but never used it or even tested it. Duno why people use it since it gives an unfair advantage, i would feel bad if i used it since it a bit cheaty. I hate beeing in duels with people using it, like sg duels at rl@dm3, they strafe so fast left-rigth theyr playermodel almost get blurry, even with 154hz.

It also makes qw harder for newcomers, the skill level in qw is high enuf without this movement abilitys, Why should qw have this special strafe feature when no other games have them. Also trying to aim at players using this fast left-rigth strafes (hold down one stafe and tap/drum on the other with one or two fingers) just feel plain odd, its movements with help from scripts. We removed rjump scripts, 180 scripts etc, this should also be removed, its even more helpfull than a rjumpscript
2009-01-03, 17:29
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115 posts

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Mar 2006
someone get the kryptonite the blue and red blur is back!
while we are removing scripts do you use weapon scripts? if so YOU WILL BURN IN HELL HEATHEN SINNER!
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2009-01-03, 18:28
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Jan 2006
Shikari wrote:
Why should qw have this special strafe feature when no other games have them.

Why should qw have bunny jumps when no other games have them?

Quote:
We removed rjump scripts, 180 scripts etc, this should also be removed, its even more helpfull than a rjumpscript

If you remove weapon scripts, I quit. This is a shooter game, not a typewriting exercise.
2009-01-03, 18:34
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Jan 2006
BTW This thread wasn't supposed to be only about that one particular script.
I'm still asking - are there also some other scripts this prevention blocks too?
2009-01-03, 19:12
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Jul 2007
JohnNy_cz wrote:
BTW This thread wasn't supposed to be only about that one particular script.
I'm still asking - are there also some other scripts this prevention blocks too?

None that I'm aware of. Were the only complains about the strafing script so far? I fear that there could be more feedback, when the stable is out. :p

Anyway, I'm in favour to remove that possibility for allow_scripts 0. Maybe allow_scripts could be more fine-grained, i.e. another value that allows the status quo kind of, while 0 blocks such binds too.
2009-01-03, 19:27
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Jun 2007
blAze, you are wrong. Many other games have bunny jumps. In most of them it's considered as advanced movement. It's rare thing if this feature is banned by community/devs (CS is one example, but bhops really didn't fit it's gameplay anyway). And bunny hops require SKILL. Use of rj, turn and strafe scripts require pushing a single button, game do the rest for you. No skill involved.

And weaponsripts should be unnecessary in the future, weapon handling is now configurable in ezQ and probably will evolve to the point where sripts would be prehistory. Not that it matters anyway, with 0s weapon switch there's little difference with or without them. Some people actually don't like them. WSW also have 0s switch time (weapons switch instantly, but models switch with little delay), weaponscripts are possible and accepted and not many people use them. It's a matter of preference, i don't feel like weaponscripts give advantage to anyone.
2009-01-03, 19:56
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Another aspect is that EQL still allows MQWCL and FuhQuake so this would be sort of punishement for our users as in those clients you can freely continue with using all the scripts.
2009-01-03, 19:59
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Mar 2006
johnny just unveiled the masterplan :>
and blaze has a very valid point 'This is a shooter game, not a typewriting exercise.'
one of the good guys! so please don't ban - jogi.netdome.biz
2009-01-03, 20:11
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Jul 2007
JohnNy_cz wrote:
Another aspect is that EQL still allows MQWCL and FuhQuake so this would be sort of punishement for our users as in those clients you can freely continue with using all the scripts.

Then you should leave it as-is (in the current stable), so you don't break the "backward compatibility" which hardliners care so much about.
2009-01-03, 21:14
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Jan 2006
Herb wrote:
blAze, you are wrong. Many other games have bunny jumps.

Yes that was my point. Not. This is QW, we don't need to copy other games. If something makes QW more fun, lets go for it.

Quote:
And bunny hops require SKILL. Use of rj, turn and strafe scripts require pushing a single button, game do the rest for you. No skill involved.

Blabla. Moving in QW requires tremendous amount of skill with or without this script. Or are you saying there is no skill involved in reppie's movement because he uses this script (if I recall correctly).

Quote:
And weaponsripts should be unnecessary in the future, weapon handling is now configurable in ezQ and probably will evolve to the point where sripts would be prehistory.

Yes let's make this strafe style configurable in ezQ so scripting it is unnecessary, that was my original suggestion as well. cl_newstrafe 1 should do it.

Quote:
It's a matter of preference, i don't feel like weaponscripts give advantage to anyone.

Same with this.
2009-01-03, 21:39
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pattah: Yeah, but as with time QWCL and other old software got removed from the list, it's better to presume that things won't stop evolving where we are now but will continue to change.

jogihoogi: Every feature/aspect of the game has some "skill factor" and some "annoy factor". These discussions should be here to reveal how much skill and annoy the community sees in them. If you think that some aspect has same "skill/annoy rating" as something else, you should explain why you think so, not just say that "this is the same as using r_drawflat". I and probably everyone reading this thread would like to understand what's behind your persuasion, but just putting equality sign between two things doesn't help much.
2009-01-03, 22:53
News Writer
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Dec 2007
I agree with blaze, get a setting like new_strafe 0/1 and if leagues dont want to allow it they can just run another damn check....
With the state of quake at the moment we really cant consider skill to be the most important aspect anymore, cause you can have the hardest fucking game in the world but no one will care if its boring and no one plays it.
So question would be, does this enhance playing quake? Does it make the game more fun or does it make it boring? Personally I havnt check so I wont comment but I cant see the problem with adding a new function like new_strafe 0/1 for it.
2009-01-04, 11:08
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Jun 2007
Arent you taking this a bit to far?
2009-01-04, 14:22
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Nov 2008
I just tested the script and tried to bunny holding left and tapping right and, for me, its harder than do it manually O.o maybe the scrip can help for correct our bunny sometimes but in my opionion its fair
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
2009-01-04, 15:19
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303 posts

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Jun 2007
Quote:
Blabla. Moving in QW requires tremendous amount of skill with or without this script. Or are you saying there is no skill involved in reppie's movement because he uses this script (if I recall correctly).

When someone is playing at reppie's level, that script doesn't matter. And i doubt it will matter to any div0 if it gets banned, they are best not because of silly scripts, but because of talent and hours spend playing the game. If this script get outlawed, they'll just adapt, like they adapted to "broken ankle" for example. It makes difference for worse players, they are playing better using this script than without it. Aimbots do the same: gives you advantage in area where your skill is lacking.

Quote:
I just tested the script and tried to bunny holding left and tapping right and, for me, its harder than do it manually O.o maybe the scrip can help for correct our bunny sometimes but in my opionion its fair

I've noticed it too, but i think that's because we are used to bunnying old way, But i'm sure dodgin rockets is easier with it.
2009-01-04, 16:30
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Regarding implementing the easier left<->right -strafing in the client:

The important thing would be to just make it the same for everyone (imo enable this movement scripting in the client by default if it makes the game more enjoyable). So what if things are made marginally easier, it is so incredibly hard for new players to reach a level where they could play an even remotely enjoyable game against a veteran, it does not help to have things like this "hidden" from them. If this makes the game more enjoyable (and levels the playing field by the slightest amount) - i suppose most "div0":s would prefer that too if it brings some new players / keeps the interest of the old players. Somebody coming 1/10 000th closer to your level of skill is a minor nuisance if the alternative is not to play at all.

Leagues could (and should) of course have rules about this and the default movement should be enforced by some ruleset if the leagues so wish.

Regarding other scripts that would be affected:

I can only think of scripts with shownick/id (in teamfortress) bound to the same button as the movement. Even though I do not see any harm in allowing that - it is probably not a big issue for anyone even if it is not allowed.
2009-01-04, 19:24
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Jan 2006
Herb wrote:
When someone is playing at reppie's level, that script doesn't matter. And i doubt it will matter to any div0 if it gets banned, they are best not because of silly scripts, but because of talent and hours spend playing the game. If this script get outlawed, they'll just adapt

Of course it matters if that's what they are used to play with over the years. At least he said that he will not play without it (again, unless my memory fails me). Any ban will be superficial anyway, the f_checks are never checked in games and people will just use the script with old clients or allow_scripts 1/2. It's also annoying to switch it off just for a league game if you use it in casual games anyway. Comparison to aimbot fails. Aimbot aims for you, this script does not move for you. It only changes the way a new input is interpreted. It's still the player who needs to press the buttons. Imho such a miniscule issue is so not worth it to totally annoy yet another portion of players in the ever decreasing scene.
2009-01-04, 20:34
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Apr 2006
blAze wrote:
Comparison to aimbot fails. Aimbot aims for you, this script does not move for you. It only changes the way a new input is interpreted. It's still the player who needs to press the buttons.

I partly agree, aimbot does everything for you, while this script/feature does only certain part for you automatically, which is "releasing" the opposite direction at perfect timing making your turn perfect, thus losing the minimum amount of speed possible. This will result in higher bunny/running speeds and better dodging as described above in this thread, benefitting worse players "considerably" more than the better players.

Time!'s last comment wasn't really how the script is meant to be used... you can release the other direction but you don't really have to time it properly, thus making it easier. It feels extremely awkward if you keep the other strafe pressed down all the time.
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2009-01-04, 20:58
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Sep 2006
vegetous wrote:
sassa wrote:
ban it!! BAAAN

(2)

(3) + Renzo pretty much explained it all.
2009-01-04, 21:24
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Nov 2008
Renzo: thats right, after more testing i noticed it help me a little timing jumps...
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"
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