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2008-02-18, 22:12
Member
43 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
I thought the Bronze Division in NQR was for people around the skillevel of division5.
This is clearly not the case though, is it?

Take a look at some of the clans in the Bronze Division now.
With clans such as Na Fianna, Naim and The Pimps in there everyone else might aswell drop from the league and let those 3 clans play the playoffs right away. Because there is no point for anyone else to even try to compete with them. It's fucked.

I guess my question is to the admins - What the hell are you thinking ?

If CMT is good enough for Silver, so is the 3 already mentioned clans aswell.

I will most likely not play NQR this season if you let the 3 mentioned clans keep playing Bronze. There's no point. There's no way that we could beat these clans. It's simply not worth wasting the energy being pissed off at QW every other evening.

I'm fucking gobsmacked.
2008-02-18, 22:15
Member
2 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
i agreeeeeee!!!
2008-02-18, 22:54
Member
47 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
The Point Is That The Admins Put Clans That Are Not Quite Rookie And Not Quite Silver In Bronze Division.
2008-02-18, 22:57
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Quote:
JohnNy_cz> well atm it's good enough, just lots of lower div5 clans did not even sign up .. if they would, bronze cup would be harsh for them .. as it will be for us, drastic collision
JohnNy_cz> my mates don't enjoy qw because of this, they are just angry because of having difficulties against almost every clan
JohnNy_cz> if you are sassa you will say "get better you piece of crap" .. but they won't get better, they don't want .. they just want to play sometimes, for fun
JohnNy_cz> I'm afraid this will be the main reason why qw will die - no turney for low-skilled players

Don't get me wrong, I think NQR couldn't do much things better (just putting nafianna in gold cup was a terrible mistake). This is not "another whine towards NQR"! It's just that most EQL div5 clans are gone and it makes the rest - av, read, dc a bit alone.
One should realize that if you allow div2/3 dickheads in the lowest div, it makes a great big difference, because the clan that is losing gets raped by that Quaded dickhead 50% of the time (30 seconds every minute), then you have 30 seconds to get up on feet before another rape comes... Such game then sucks. You don't want to write "gg", you don't want to play any more qw that day, etc. Sometimes I'm even thinking about a special mod that would change things (lowering quad importance for instance). Some of you might think I must be pathetic, but if you are from higher divs, you just don't feel the bitterness that is in div5.

Those "games that don't have much sense because it will be big rape" are also different in bronze from such games in gold. Clans in gold cup are experienced, play qw a lot, etc. But most players in bronze don't play qw that much. And wasting 40 minutes (+ delays and stuff) on such matches is much more frustrating than it would be for anyone from gold cup. (Then there's sassa who just wants to win a map in every match or something...)

I think there are lots of div5 players out there who would like to play but there's no tourney for them. There are no other tourneys (1on1, 2on2, whatever). Maybe upcoming CTF league/ladder will change this?
2008-02-18, 23:03
Administrator
1021 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Play, have fun, get a decent haircut and drink beer! gl!
2008-02-18, 23:03
Member
43 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
joulukuu wrote:
The Point Is That The Admins Put Clans That Are Not Quite Rookie And Not Quite Silver In Bronze Division.

Perhaps you would like to read my post again where I clearly state that if CMT is good enough for silver, so is Naim, Na Fianna and The Pimps.
2008-02-18, 23:17
Member
125 posts

Registered:
Jan 2008
Damn whine about divisions everywhere I go..
When there are only 3 tiers. All teams can never be at the same skill level.
Thats just the law of nature.
2008-02-18, 23:40
Member
43 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
fog wrote:
Third and most important of all: The Rules for NQR11 are quite clear about one particular thing:
Quote:
After week 1 has started, you are allowed to make a maximum of 2 additions to your playerlist during the regular season (subject to approval by the admin team - see above) The admin team reserves the right to deny any player transfer, the crew's decision is final. We will not allow a player transfers that compromise the 'level-ness' of a division.


So what's Arnette, Iggy, Antic, John_Rambo and Samon doing in Bronze?
2008-02-19, 01:09
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Another law of nature is the whine about the divs/tiers every time, no matter what. It is somewhat entertaining, though.
2008-02-19, 03:02
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Sajko wrote:
I thought the Bronze Division in NQR was for people around the skillevel of division5.
This is clearly not the case though, is it?

Take a look at some of the clans in the Bronze Division now.
With clans such as Na Fianna, Naim and The Pimps in there everyone else might aswell drop from the league and let those 3 clans play the playoffs right away. Because there is no point for anyone else to even try to compete with them. It's fucked.

I guess my question is to the admins - What the hell are you thinking ?

If CMT is good enough for Silver, so is the 3 already mentioned clans aswell.

I will most likely not play NQR this season if you let the 3 mentioned clans keep playing Bronze. There's no point. There's no way that we could beat these clans. It's simply not worth wasting the energy being pissed off at QW every other evening.

I'm fucking gobsmacked.

So you won't play, because the top three are probably already quite clear? How about all the other games? Dies Ater, where I play atm. is in Gold, in eql6 they were in div3. Sure now they've added me and creature from div2, but honestly we are probably not going to win too many games. So what's the point of playing when tVS, Koff or Star Alliance are most probably gonna be in the top 4 and we don't really have any chance vs. these clans?

I can understand that qw is different for people that play it less and less seriously. But like has been stated, creating tier's / divs for many clans and expecting them all to be beatable by others is simply impossible. I'm a bit conflicted about the higher level players running quad though :/ Unlike many other sports, that one man can make a huge difference in qw 4on4. Even in div0 you have players that go on streaks where they single handedly take out the whole other team of rl's, with or without quad (vs. same level clans that is).

Also like in other sports, in lower divisions you can easily have clans that for one season become pretty much unbeatable. They recruit a new good player that gives enough of an edge, or get a new coach that stirs up the level. So they win the season and will get to play vs. bottom teams in the higher division to see if they belong there.
2008-02-19, 03:17
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Sajko wrote:
With clans such as Na Fianna, Naim and The Pimps in there everyone else might aswell drop from the league and let those 3 clans play the playoffs right away. Because there is no point for anyone else to even try to compete with them. It's fucked.

You're absolutely right. Entire Dies Ater, Malice, Suddendeath, Antiquad, Easyriders, NoPasaran!, Chosen, Apocalypse 2000, Osams, Storviks Hjälter, Rapesticks, NOBODY'S QUAKEPLAYERS, etc.. should follow your brave example by dropping and going inactive since I don't see them winning their tiers either.

I wish you guys would finally stop whining just because you're not the best clan in your tier. Official games only make up for like 3% of the QuakeWorld games that are played, so please be a man about it and stop pretending that theres anything at stake here. What are you afraid of? That people are gonna throw in your windows and graffiti "looooooooool, Sajko's clan lost to Naim" on the wall outside your house? Everyone obviously prefers winning to losing, myself included, but people like you really make me wonder where we've gotten these days. I wish back the time where rape was something like 400:3 and people still considered 260:135 to be fun, NOT RAPE. Having 3 tiers (Okay, 4 including rookies) has its obvious disadvantages, but it's mainly meant to be a challenge. A league where you play different clans than the 5 you usually prac with, a chance to prove yourself against clans that are supposedly better, perhaps manage to steal a map or even the game off a bigger team, and so on.
You're making a scene because theres 3 out of 13 clans in Bronze that you feel you can't win against. Big fucking deal! As for Arnette: He's playing in Bronze Cup because his clan belongs there and we didn't/don't expect his impact to be big enough for that clan to succeed in Silver Cup. Maybe after the season we'll stand corrected and come to the conclusion that they should have been in Silver Cup. Maybe not.

Please also keep in mind that we owe absolutely nothing to you. While we invest a shitload of time into this season and our host actually even invests money to pay for domain name registration and webspace, you are simply invited to make use of the service we provide - for free. While I can only hope that you continue to play with your clan and overcome the sadness of not winning a trophy this season, you're also happy to leave. Naim, Nafianna and The Pimps are gonna stay where they are, so if that really breaks your heart as much as you pretend, then byebye.
_________________________________________________________
Save a cow, crucify a christian!
2008-02-19, 07:17
Member
569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
i agree with soma.

When teams are split into tiers, this will happen. The situation is still a lot much much better than in a smackdown-style competition.

What i find amusing was that after 134-260 on e1m2 we can read comments like:
Zaq wrote:
just the first of all the rapes they will face. gg.

It's a team that is expected to be placed last in the tier that got over 130 frags vs one of the top-teams in QW.
#13 seed is expected to take some maps vs perhaps #9,10,11,12. Not to stand a chance vs koff.

But if the low half of every tier drop out because they cant beat the top teams in their div... not much left then.
2008-02-19, 07:39
Member
7 posts

Registered:
Feb 2008
How come Silver only has 12 clans while Bronze has 14, why not even out to 13 in each? This question has been nagging me. As far as I'm concerned The Pimps would do fine in Silver...
Remember those posters that said, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life"? Well, that's true of every day but one - the day you die...
2008-02-19, 07:50
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Well if we had placed The Pimps in Silver they would have probably said "looooooooooooooool, we lost in a prac vs XY recently, and our best player is really inactive, and we will get raped by everyone. And we lost our last game vs Nafianna, why are they in Bronze and we're in Silver. We will drop from NQR!". And people like Sajko would storm to #nqr and tell us about how stupid we are for putting The Pimps in Silver while allowing Arnette in Bronze Cup.
Whine is an ongoing, developing and everlasting process. Much like technology, but without the benefits.
_________________________________________________________
Save a cow, crucify a christian!
2008-02-19, 08:27
Member
7 posts

Registered:
Feb 2008
I still cannot understand why you didn't have 13 teams in each division (rookies excluded) from the very beginning. It is just a nagging thought though, obviously nothing will change but I just wanted to point out that Silver is "one clan short" and I think it is strange that the Pimps did not land there, instead they get a walk in the park in Bronze. Anyways, I do appreciate the time and effort you admins put into the nqr, and I do not envy the all the whine you receive, but this is wrong... wrooong. We (AV) will do our best to quake their foundations glhfggorwhatever
Remember those posters that said, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life"? Well, that's true of every day but one - the day you die...
2008-02-19, 09:07
Member
156 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
bjorta wrote:
I still cannot understand why you didn't have 13 teams in each division (rookies excluded) from the very beginning.

Well it's a fair question, don't get me wrong. But we just didn't think any of the clans in Bronze at that point would succeed in Silver Cup. The Pimps had not played in NQR10 and SamoN had previously said he was looking for a clan because his team was inactive. Also, I don't know anyone in the team except for SamoN (from some mixgames ages ago) and Qra (who imo belongs in Bronze). That aside, RocketZ (author of "the divisions suck. they should look like this:" actually suggested that they should be placed in Iron Cup. That aside too, The Pimps also requested to be put in Bronze. Maybe it's foolish to believe that every clan requests to be put into the division where they belong, but hey, gotta have some faith in humanity!
So yeah... The Pimps = a bunch of inactive poles that we don't know anything about, that requested to be in Bronze Cup, were placed in Iron Cup by a knowitall, and had led to no whine by future opponents until their first game vs Samojedit. There's your classic Bronze Cup team.
_________________________________________________________
Save a cow, crucify a christian!
2008-02-19, 09:13
Administrator
1021 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
How about just play the games, whine afterwards and not before?

Keep it up admins. Appreciate your work!
2008-02-19, 10:09
Member
7 posts

Registered:
Feb 2008
Ok, fine. I Cannot say that I knew them very well either. They are a solid team though and it will be interesting to see if NAIM or Nafianna will be able to take them down Ofcourse we will play our games, and we have also played the teams in question in pracs lately, in other case I would not have had the slightest idea of how good arnette or the pimps were at all. Well, the starter of this entire conversation actually was Sassa's (pompous spirit of QW) attempt to join Fallen Angels, following the rejection he made the impression that he might try for a "weaker" clan in order to get into bronze. Do not let more div1-3 players into bronze, not that it is very likely to happen. Now, let us widen our starfishes :D
Remember those posters that said, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life"? Well, that's true of every day but one - the day you die...
2008-02-19, 11:00
Member
1433 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
soma wrote:
Official games only make up for like 3% of the QuakeWorld games that are played

This is the point where you are completely wrong and everything implies from it. This is not how it works in div5/lower bronze. Niomic, Soma, you can't compare bronze with gold imho.
low-gold team gets raped = so what, let's prac more, we play qw like every day anyway
low-bronze team gets raped = all players are disgusted, almost no qw until next official match

Simple question: What are you going to do with rookies in next season? Put them in bronze? For next NQR you need to consider what are you going to do with the gap that is between rookies and top-half clans in bronze. You have a responsibility for the grow of the teamplay scene, you can't say "accept what we offer or die" because, yeah, low-skill scene will die.
Again, I am not saying that there is something significantly wrong in current Bronze Cup (this is not div whine (c)) It just seems to me that somehow you don't understand in what situation low-bronze clans are. It'd be nice if you could acknowledge at least a part of this.
2008-02-19, 11:37
Member
36 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Oh so what if u get raped in 3-4 games there is still like 9 games left to play?
Johnny_z dont call ppl dickheads if they play better than you.
And isnt bronze more like div5-middlediv4? not only div5
this whine is useless...... we wont win every match in the tourney, lol lets drop.
USELESS WHINE! and there has been only 2 nqr games yet in bronze, maybe you should just play and not spend whole day in qwforum whinening your possible loss.. IDIOTS!
oooOO
2008-02-19, 11:38
Member
126 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Every div has this problem and you're probably not gonna solve it unless you make divs of 2 clans max.
2008-02-19, 12:21
Member
284 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
JohnNy_cz wrote:
soma wrote:
Official games only make up for like 3% of the QuakeWorld games that are played

This is the point where you are completely wrong and everything implies from it. This is not how it works in div5/lower bronze. Niomic, Soma, you can't compare bronze with gold imho.
low-gold team gets raped = so what, let's prac more, we play qw like every day anyway
low-bronze team gets raped = all players are disgusted, almost no qw until next official match

I wholeheartedly agree with this (except for disgust and I think Soma did take a misstep here, or just didn't think it through. Most of the players I see playing a lot regularly are div3 and better. Even though Rookie + Bronze make up a big chunk of the total teams in NQR, I would imagine their actual total playing time is nowhere in the league of what just the Silver tier and its players play. There are a lot of players that play qw almost at amatuer pro level in sports in terms of time spent on the game. This contrasted with casual hobbyists who maybe play a couple of hours a week. I would imagine that when I'm active I average more hours around qw in a week than many bronze clan's players combined average in a month. And sure, this effects the official / prac / mix / misc ffa etc percentual distribution drastically.
2008-02-19, 13:14
Member
43 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
I think most of you are missing the big point here. I don't mind the clans as much as I mind some of them having players that would fit in a high silver or even gold clan. It's about having fun while playing. It's not fun to have one person in the opposing clan run quad and rape you 50% of the time (like Johnny said) - To bad some of you fuckwits are missing that point and has to go "LOL SAJKO IS PISSED CAUSE HE'S NOT WINNING ALL GAMEZ LOL LOL".

Quake is a game and is about having fun - right or wrong?

Some of you people are really fucking daft.

Out.

PS. I do apprieciate the work you do with NQR and all that. It's just annoying when I'm telling you what's what and you don't listen. DS.
2008-02-19, 13:30
Member
569 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Well people have been complaining for several years that mm was playing in a non div1 team. Im surprised that a team with arnette is not in silver/gold as i remember him as a very good player. But it's impossible for nqr-crew to keep track of every player. And moving a team when first games have been played shouldnt be done very often.
2008-02-19, 13:39
Administrator
1021 posts

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Apr 2006
Play, have fun, get a decent haircut and drink beer! gl!
2008-02-19, 14:19
Member
2259 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Played two games with the simmilar scores

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7307/080219favsnaimdm3000sm3.jpg


http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5763/ezquake003ap0.jpg


http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6941/ezquake002yt3.jpg



I just wanna be in a clan and play nqr
2008-02-19, 15:24
Member
47 posts

Registered:
Feb 2007
id have john_rambo's babies
2008-02-19, 16:41
Member
26 posts

Registered:
Feb 2007
The fact that we (AV) are going to have a hard time getting anywhere near playoffs in NQR this season is unmistakable, but certainly not news to me. (We finished second from the bottom in NQR 10, though, so there's a good chance we'll improve this season anyhow.)

As I see it, there is one big difference between the NQR and the EQL, and that is the greater challenge (not to in any way belittle the challenges we have faced in the EQL thus far) offered by a season in the NQR. Thanks to the system of four (traditionally three) tiers as opposed to five or six divisions, one gets a chance to play much better clans under competitive circumstances -- which is something quite different from playing practice games. In a competitive environment, we have the enforcement of rules, the ping issue, the optimisation of line-ups, the nervosity, the drama. It can be great fun even if you lose big-time, and nervosity on the opposing team's part can at least potentially lead to unexpected results.

This difference between the NQR and the EQL is worth defending, even from the beaks and claws of my own clan mates. Fellow Witnesses Sajko and Bjorta -- let's aim for an intermediate placement in the tier. It'll be a great improvement from NQR 10.

On the topic of players that are really Silver or even Gold material in Bronze tier clans, I can only agree with what has already been said by my clan mates and others. But that's too late to get worked up about now, I'm afraid.
2008-02-19, 16:42
Member
37 posts

Registered:
Jan 2008
Firstly, why is it that when somebody posts about an honest grievance, they are pounced upon by others trying to get them to shut up? I don't understand why there is such a focus on "whining" in Quake. How would you like it if your government responded to all of the oppositions' arguments with "stop whining, noob"?

Regarding the (mis?)placement of some clans in Bronze:

I was disappointed when na Fianna ended up in Bronze this season - I thought that we could do OK in Silver. We would lose most of our games, but we would be able to win some maps and it would be a good challenge and a good learning experience. Then I saw the other teams that are in Bronze with us. Pimps, Naim, magnum44, STA, QKL, etc. and it was clear that Bronze != div5. Bronze = lower half of div4 & upper half of div5. There is a big step up in skill between div5 and div4, and it is not pretty for mid div5 teams to have to play vs mid div4 teams, but at least for na Fianna, I know that it will be a challenging season for us in Bronze.

I think that anyone who feels hard done by should continue to fight their corner. It is good to make your feelings known and debate these things, rather than admins making executive decisions behind closed doors, and some clan having a chip on their shoulder for the next five years. If the admins feel the need to intervene in this case, well I don't speak with authority for na Fianna, but I would not complain if we were moved to Silver (maybe my teammates might kill me for saying that).

More importantly, I am firmly opposed to singling out players and banning them from playing in a certain division. A clan is not just a group of random guys who formed a team; there is a combined energy stemming from the camaraderie and enthusiasm of its players. To ban a key player from a clan is like cutting out its heart; killing somebody's baby. Generally, if this is a high division player, they are the driving force and the means for this clan to progress to the next level. This is the alpha player who tells the others what to do over comms... this is the guy who organises games, and helps the others with their configs. This is the fella who gives the struggling rookies a beacon of hope to cling to when they're getting smacked around on dm3 by NAIM.

I say let Sassa play in bronze. As the screenshots prove, he's not going to one-man team his way to victory. What he can do is instill some decent teamplay in his teammates and together allow them to carry on up the charts to division 4 standard. This kind of advancement in the lower divisions is exactly what QuakeWorld needs and has been sorely lacking in recent years (how many div5/6 clans have you seen make the step up to div4 standard recently?)

Let arnette play in bronze. I played against arnette's team once and even though he was extremely strong, without the good work of his teammates, he would not have been able to dominate like this. IIRC his teammate IGGGY held the fort for a long time while arnette was a boomsticker. I see other good players in Naim's lineup and think that they are good enough to play in Silver too, but in a borderline case like this it makes little difference. What happens if Arnette cannot play some game? They would probably be destroyed in Silver (no offence to your team if I am wrong, I don't know how good your squad is, I am just saying this for the sake of argument). Some clans are not able to rely 100% on their star players.

And regarding john_rambo, hahahahahah. This guy lolls around the map like a heffalump while I have to pick up the pieces. The only reason he usually top the scoreboard for na Fianna is because he "accidentally" teamkills his buddies whenever they get a rl, so the rest of us spend our time supporting him. I don't know what team you're from sajko, but Fian-A will happily play you in a prac without john_rambo playing and show you that there is no such thing as a one-man team, even at this level.
2008-02-19, 16:54
Administrator
2045 posts

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Jan 2006
ncr wrote:
On the topic of players that are really Silver or even Gold material in Bronze tier clans, I can only agree with what has already been said by my clan mates and others. But that's too late to get worked up about now, I'm afraid.

The really bad thing about this is also that it not only affects the less good bronze clans to think the game is boring when they lose 300-30 in two straight maps for three games in a row, but also that there are quite a few good players from random clans that could take a step up and bring new energy into the higher tiers. It's very nice to see Star Alliance reactivating players like Mawe, Locktar and Goblin in top notch QW 4on4 gaming for example. I'm sure there are several more players who could play on the same level who still plays in silver cup, or even bronze cup.

At the same time i agree with Hedgepig; you can't really ban players from a certain division/ clan before a season has started.
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