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2007-01-22, 22:06
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Jan 2006
The best shafter will probably remain the best, even when fakeshaft is allowed. So don't worry people.
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2007-01-23, 00:59
Member
2259 posts

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Jan 2006
!phil wrote:
Oh and if you saw a noticable improvement in your shaft, I would like you to back this up. Here is a good test: play 10 povdmm4s vs a div1 (edit: div2 wont do, you can already outshaft interceptor!) player, alternating each pov -- one fakeshaft one without fakeshaft. Or play 5 with fakeshaft (to get used to it) and five without.

Of course demos, etc wont really matter, so you can just upload screenies (edit: of ktpro LG% printout, so that we at least know you did play 10 povs). We will take your word for it. If there is really a noticable improvement, so be it.

This shall be done tomorrow, just for you my russian-boy!
2007-01-23, 07:30
Member
47 posts

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Jan 2006
From a noobs pov (that's me) I don't agree with you to 100%. IMHO the shaft is already too powerfull compared to other weapons and I'm not sure that making it easier to use for some (windows ezquake users - that's not me) will make me wanna play more. From an admins pov I would not allow it untill the sound is fixed in linux-ezquake-1754 so that everyone can use it, oh that is everyone that still not use fuh & mqwcl .
2007-01-23, 12:46
Member
1435 posts

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Jan 2006
Thanks Term for the first valuable post that defends other side here too. Finally.
BTW, what's the issue with sound in linux? Have you contacted some developer from ezQuake to take a look at it? Where can I find relevant info?
2007-01-23, 13:28
Member
47 posts

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Jan 2006
No I have not contacted anyone, sorry. You should probably talk to bigfoot, think he might have a solution.

http://quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1290
2007-01-23, 14:28
Member
802 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
I always played with fakeshaft on, but last night I tried a LGC match with it off and guest what? I think it's easier to shaft when fakeshaft is turned off. So I don't see any advantages of use it. It's just another eyecandy!

However I'm not against banning fakeshaft from official competitions, but they should clarify things and say it's not a cheat. It's just a feature they don't want to allow!
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2007-01-23, 16:36
Member
364 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Is this some inside joke I'm missing, or does Sassa actually behave like a bad-mannered teenage noob?

People are trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm shocked to hear this kind of tone from a person representing EQL.
2007-01-23, 16:38
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Tonik wrote:
Is this some inside joke I'm missing, or does Sassa actually behave like a bad-mannered teenage noob?

People are trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm shocked to hear this kind of tone from a person representing EQL.

I'm unaware of such a joke if that's the case.
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2007-01-23, 21:54
Member
69 posts

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Feb 2006
its one of those things that you think will help you out, but in the end it just winds up screwing you up. i used to use cl_truelightning for this very reason, but when i started dueling and joining 4on4 games i was forced to change it. now i'm used to the normal shaft to ping movement ratio. just recently i fired up qw and tested this new cl_fakeshaft and i can honestly say it was incredibly hard to land a decent shaft (@local-13ms, @nobodys-39ms). not only did it feel weird, it looked weird. i guess its more of a matter of what you're used to. i'm sure all of us can agree its not a 'performance enhancing' cvar. i don't think it should be banned, but rather looked down upon and laughed at. much like campers. thats my 2 cents.
2007-01-24, 11:03
Member
1435 posts

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Jan 2006
I don't understand how a league can let people vote on something without giving them enough information on what they are voting for! Look at NQR page. Natural reaction on something you don't know always will be "disallow". It's an illusion if the league admins believe that all the QW ppl are reading forums, think about this stuff, have some regular opinion on this and such. Either give full correct info about what it is, what are it's advantages and disadvantages or don't even dare to ask them.

Like what is this people, attempt to manipulate dumb crowd in someones profit?!

Of course when one sees "fake" and "shaft", he will always think like "might be dangerous, I don't know what it is, it's safer to vote for disallow".

BTW "this new EzQuake feature." - are we back to 2004 when ezQuake was marked as a client full of cheats wherever possible? It's not a new feature. It hasn't been allowed.

I'm really disappointed. Not because fakeshaft is not being accepted and my personal opinion is that it should be allowed - I never used it and I never will, it doesn't help me at all. But because the maturity level of some people that are here to control things is really miserable. You really think that QW can move forward with such attitudes?

If you don't know what is fakeshaft, read the appropriate manual page.

Agreed with Tonik BTW.
2007-01-24, 11:24
Member
1754 posts

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Jan 2006
I couldn't agree more with JohnNy_cz here.. I'm very sad that many people don't follow forum discussions and get information before throwing fakeshaft in the gutter. I play with it because it only keeps the shaft lined to some point when I don't get dizzy from watching it all over the screen, that being since I play with 40+ ms all the time.
Another discussion is modified models, why plagues pak is still not allowed.
2007-01-24, 11:34
Member
1435 posts

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Jan 2006
Well Peppe, I don't think it's their fault. Not all people have the time (or attitude, ...) to follow all the things they should. That's why they join respected league. They expect the admins that they will setup fair envirnment for them. That's what the admins are here for, right? If admins say "We don't know, we let you vote", people that don't care will think "Well, I don't know either, but if I vote no, I won't break anything I guess, it's the safe way."
2007-01-24, 16:10
Member
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Jan 2006
Well, why cast a voting then? I'd rather see the admins taking a stand than doing a vote that we all know will fail in this case.
2007-01-24, 21:54
Member
116 posts

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Mar 2006
I agree with both peppe and JohnNy_cz about having public polls.

I hope the staff/poll decide against fakeshaft. As long as one person benefits from it I think its unfair and shouldnt be allowed.
2007-01-25, 00:23
Member
355 posts

Registered:
Jun 2006
error wrote:
I agree with both peppe and JohnNy_cz about having public polls.

I hope the staff/poll decide against fakeshaft. As long as one person benefits from it I think its unfair and shouldnt be allowed.

Bolded to emphasize what I believe is bad logic

Unless I'm misinformed on fakeshaft, it is just eyecandy because the shaft is still hitting only where you see it hit with fakeshaft off.
2007-01-25, 00:45
News Writer
493 posts

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Jan 2006
********* http://ezquake.sourceforge.net/docs/?fakeshaft *********

Please head there to read more about fakeshaft!
2007-01-25, 12:34
Member
116 posts

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Mar 2006
PlaZmaZ wrote:
error wrote:
I agree with both peppe and JohnNy_cz about having public polls.

I hope the staff/poll decide against fakeshaft. As long as one person benefits from it I think its unfair and shouldnt be allowed.

Bolded to emphasize what I believe is bad logic

Unless I'm misinformed on fakeshaft, it is just eyecandy because the shaft is still hitting only where you see it hit with fakeshaft off.

Not all people knows that you should aim with your crosshair no matter where the beam is. Also even if they know this they still cant aim only with the crosshair. Fakeshaft helps them because the beam and the crosshair are the same.
2007-01-25, 15:56
Member
135 posts

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Jan 2006
error wrote:
Not all people knows that you should aim with your crosshair no matter where the beam is.

So, basically, removing fakeshaft will help you to rape these poor people easier. Is that your goal?
2007-01-25, 16:32
Member
116 posts

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Mar 2006
That is your choice of words, but yes I dont want to make the game simplier just to level the playing field.

Whats next, autotook back again? Or perhaps timers? Maybe we should have a radar too so that you dont need to listen to reports..

For the record I dont like that its now possible to separate death messages with mm2 either.
2007-01-25, 17:13
Member
151 posts

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Feb 2006
and error i think that its attitudes towards the game that you posses (and others do too) that are actually destrying qw more than helping it. If you dont like the new features and prefer the simpler stuff then go play qwcl2.33. Personally I think the game should be updated to help new players join because the community is dwindling in numbers, and also improve the game technology, code, internals and menu systems just to make the game easier to USE but not to learn the game any quicker. Also changing the physics etc is a no-no for a start. Things like the new death messages are great because it helps and simplifies the console. The only reason people had to learn to read the console well is because you had no choice. But now there is a choice. The game was built 10 years ago and its silly to keep playing it with 10 year old technology.

So let the game move forward, as it has done since its conception, and stop assisting the death of the game you 'love'.

And to bring us back on topic, I think if you actually read the topic first you'd realise that 99% of people agree that it is NOT, i repeat NOT a cheat and that it should be allowed in events because it actually harms you lg more than helps it.
bd
2007-01-25, 19:24
Administrator
2059 posts

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Jan 2006
Shafting would still be about who has got the most stable and smooth motions with the mouse, isn't that what counts in the end? You don't think that you guys would still have it, because at the moment 90% of the community is deluded about the aim-where-your-crosshair-is-fact?
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2007-01-25, 19:25
Member
116 posts

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Mar 2006
well if it harms it more than it helps, why have the option since im ure most noobs will use it.

Im all for better menus and eye candy.

Ps. The biggest hurdle for new players is veterans' expertise on TB3. If we forced new maps the skill difference wouldnt be so huge.
2007-01-25, 20:09
Member
135 posts

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Jan 2006
error wrote:
That is your choice of words, but yes I dont want to make the game simplier just to level the playing field.

Whats next, autotook back again? Or perhaps timers? Maybe we should have a radar too so that you dont need to listen to reports..

For the record I dont like that its now possible to separate death messages with mm2 either.

Let me guess, you also don't like:
1) independent physics, since it makes game smoother (== so much easier!),
2) optical/laser mouses, since they make game more precise (== so much easier!!),
3) new, big, nice, 200Hz CRT monitors, one shouldn't be allowed to use these, 77Hz CRT or just LCD should be enough for everyone,
4) qizmo, as it can lower your opponent's ping, why would one want that for god's sake,
5) better connections (as above), everyone should use 33600kbps modem link, pings would be equal,
6) brightskins, as they make finding enemy hiding in the dark so easy, no skill involved,
7) single color weapon/armor/health textures, as they help recognizing if the item is on its place,
8) modified rocket blast and blood, as it helps to see much more than default (after the blast),
9) turned off damage splash, as it helps so much in faster finding the reason of the damage,
10) modified sounds, as it is so much easier to hear the teleport behind one's back while under heavy fire,
11) inteligent config files, as it so much easier to push/remember only one button instead of nine,
12) using vent/ts, as it so much easier to play when one hears his mates telling him what to do, where enemies are,
13) team_says/timers during the game at all, one shouldn't be able to know something he isn't supposed to know, it definitely must be a cheat,
14) other than default map textures, as they can make playing easier overall, if one doesn't like dark/brown colors - he shall move to q3,
15) mvd server demos, they are small and easy to get, too easy to identify opponents secret tactics, they should be banned for life,
and so on, you don't want to read another 15.

Am I right or am I right?

Now try to prove me that fakeshaft is for some reason something more than these points mentioned above.

Or lets do it Sassa's style:

===
played with [ANY # FROM ABOVE LIST] a bit today in some povs!

Think its totally cheat and will fight against it as hard as I can.

it makes you [PUT HERE IN WHAT WAY # HELPED YOU] very easy and takes the QW spirit away.. why not then change bunnyjumps to the way PK has it, that u don't even need to strafe!!!
===

Grow up people. Evolve. Don't act like old ladies. I play QW for 10 years and I want fakeshaft allowed, like I wanted all things mentioned above. If not for me then for other people who benefit from and enjoy them. QW should be played for fun. And no, I'm not afraid if some people may become better cause of that. It will be better for me too, I like playing vs/with better players rather than vs/with worse.
2007-01-25, 20:25
News Writer
646 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
Someone brought up "why not enable timers" cl_gameclock 2 is already enabled... "why not enable radar", well thats simple: because it gives you information you dont have with regular qw. With qw, if someone is out of your visual range (and audio range I guess), then you dont get that packet sent to you.

Fakeshaft adds no new information. It is the same effect that crosshair has.

Here is an interesting exercise: Open up notepad, and write whatever reason you have for banning fakeshaft. Now go to Edit->Replace and replace all occurences of "fakeshaft" with "crosshair". Now, read what you wrote. Does it make any sense? I didn't think so.
2007-01-26, 12:26
Member
192 posts

Registered:
Mar 2006
It funny to read all those posts about banning fakeshaft. Its always the same: It improves the aim. No other pros than this.

Are you so afraid of getting raped guys ?
2007-01-26, 13:22
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Defcon 5 wrote:
It funny to read all those posts about banning fakeshaft. Its always the same: It improves the aim. No other pros than this.

Are you so afraid of getting raped guys ?

What else could it possibly improve? Your bunnyhopping? Rjs perhaps? Or maybe your sng!?

Are you so afraid of not hitting with the normal lg ?



Edit: nope, I wasn't done yet.

It makes me wonder. If you say fakeshaft only makes your LG-aim worse then why to use it in the first place? I wouldn't use any setting that makes my aim worse than it already is especially because of eyecandy.

Also, why aren't there any other good LGers commenting fakeshaft than the interceptor? And I'm not talking about pov-lgers but people who get >30% shaft with 25ms in dm6/dm4/aero/ztn/etc 1on1/2on2 against decent opponent and not those lg% savers.

To me this fakeshaft thing looks like to be average players wanting to gap the skill (or aimskill) difference between those who can do something with the lg and those who can't. But what do I care. Make fakeshaft votable in tournaments and those not satisfied with the result can sign out of the tournaments if they wish. It's a bad comparison but as like movement scripts, fakeshaft allows player to do things easier than they would be otherwise.
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2007-01-26, 14:20
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169 posts

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Jan 2006
I honestly don't think anyone will notice the differece if fakeshaft is allowed in the future. It will all be forgotten in a few days...
2007-01-26, 15:33
Member
1435 posts

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Jan 2006
First I'd like to say sorry for wrong fakeshaft description. I've updated the manual page today with proper description of how the fakeshaft really works.

Second sorry goes to NQR crew, because the guys seem to be insulted by my previous post. I really don't want to go again into that type of discussions we had in times when ezQuake was new on the scene. So - sorry to NQR, I just wanted to point out how to make things better.
I've been told that because I'm not running such a big league as they are, I can't understand the things they are facing and why they are doing things the way they are. I have only ran several tournaments in my country where 32 participants was really a great achievment - that's really nothing compared to NQR, noone can deny that for sure.

That's why you are the ones who know better how to do this things. I understand that and I am terribly sorry :-)
2007-01-26, 16:05
News Writer
646 posts

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Mar 2006
Renzo wrote:
It's a bad comparison but as like movement scripts, fakeshaft allows player to do things easier than they would be otherwise.

For all the content of your post, you did not answer the topic of this thread (see first post). *how* does fakeshaft "allows player to do things easier than they wold be otherwise"?

Here is an example answer: "movement scripts allow player to do things easier than they would be otherwise *because* when you the key bound to your FRJ script, it automatically aims behind you, rocket jumps, and returns your aim back to front face position."

Here is also a pre-emptive rebuttal:"fakeshaft *does not* allow player to do things easier, because it is an illusion: the shaft is updated at 77 frames per second, but the server-side shaft hits are still 10 hits per second. and so, it is actually detrimental, because if your opponent is moving while you are shafting him, it is quite possible that 67 out of those 77 frames per second, the illusionary fakeshaft on your screen in no way corresponds to the real position of the shaft hit. on the other hand, without fakeshaft, you can tell where the last hit was, and using the players current movement, can predict where to place the next shot so as to maximize its placement in respect with your opponents trajectory

"Furthermore, if something is simply detrimental (such as playing with keyboard only), that is not grounds for banning it. I hope that point is trivial and not contested."

Sincerely

Phil
2007-01-26, 16:32
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
!phil wrote:
For all the content of your post, you did not answer the topic of this thread (see first post). *how* does fakeshaft "allows player to do things easier than they wold be otherwise"?

Here is also a pre-emptive rebuttal:"fakeshaft *does not* allow player to do things easier, because it is an illusion:

The illusion of lg bolt being less jerky than it is normally. Meaning it allows player not to be confused by the lg bolt but to follow more his crosshair as it is supposed to be done. I used fakeshaft (or truelightning) back in the day for almost 2 years because I was too confused about the bolt lagging behing. Nowadays I haven't used it in a year or so except for the testing purposes. I still feel that shafting with fakeshaft enabled is much easier and not so messy as without it. And what's the funniest part, I still get confused by the lg bolt from time to time if I'm not playing with 13ms and even if I know I shouldn't conserm myself with it.

We even have an example of fakeshaft improving someone's aim in this thread:
Quote:
Originally posted by Peppe

I have to say this, I started playing with fakeshaft 40% After that(this is no joke) I improved my lg-% in povs
got around 27 instead of 22.
Most people probably know that I have a high ping even in Sweden, this is very hard to accept for some but I manage and it's ok to play with when stable. However, over 25 ms the shaft gets a little wild, running all over the screen. When I started using fakeshaft, this stopped and I can improve my aim now on the high ping I have, instead of just ignoring the lg and mainly using rl.

Of course not everyone benefits from fakeshaft and others actually lose some lg-aim using it.
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