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European Quake League
2006-09-20, 13:50
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135 posts

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Jan 2006
Mursu wrote:
So im asking: is this the fairness Plast is asking for? The team with worse connections and who live far away from the rest of the scene should have a advantage for the game to be fair?

Yes, this is the fairness I'm asking for. Your whole argument is missing one thing - most Poles are also used to low pings like 13 or 26, 39 at most (which is ANYWAY BETTER and feels more like 13 than like 52). Do you see many Poles playing mixes, duels, 2on2s, povdmm4, end, endif, etc. @ wargamez or any other server you play? I don't think so. That's why no one likes to play 50ms+ if they may play 13-26 ms in their own country. I spend 90% of my qw time on Polish servers where I got 26 and earlier I was spending even much more time playing only at LAN with ping 13. I play EQLs with 50ms 'cause I don't have any choice (Swe won't play in Poland even if they got 39ms there cause its better for them to play 39 39 39 39 vs 50 50 65 65 rather than 39 39 50 50 vs 39 39 39 39) and also pracs with that ping to get use to it as much as possible, but still I feel like one or two divs lower than at my normal 26ms ping. So please stop saying that shit about who is used to what and why, will you? This is dead end.
2006-09-20, 13:58
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Jan 2006
mushi wrote:
Imho the best and fairer solution is the good old ping fairness. Equal pings as much as possible, without minping. the majority will disagree about this. but the majority can prac "high pings" in other servers like uk, nl or ger, and this whole "im not used to it" would be solved.

but the majority should have the opportunity to say "NO! i dont want to play with "lame" pings. EVER!". why not creating a "Nordic Quake Rank" for these? The ones of the majority who would accept playing with 50ms vs 50ms could also signup for the European leagues.

Couldn't agree more.

Admins: so please make VALID minping rule in EQL since it's EUROPEAN league or please rename it to NORDIC league and then I will probably sign out my clan or ask to move us to lower division where I can actually do some damage playing 50ms vs 13ms. Current situation is just unclear.
2006-09-20, 15:30
Moderator
383 posts

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Jan 2006
IMO, Duelmania ping rule is perfect.

Quite:
Duelmania rules wrote:
08. Servers

Since there are players representing many different nations in DuelMania, be prepared to play with higher ping than you're used to.
In general the game can be played on any server both players agree to play on. The DuelMania Admins insist that the players' server-choice is done with common sense and that pings are kept as low as possible.
However if the players don't agree, the server is determined by the following procedure:
1. Both players have to show their lowest possible ping they can get on 1on1 servers.
2. After that a server has to be found where both players get a ping which is about the same amount higher than their lowest possible ping. A ping difference of ~13ms is never considered to be too high.

A list of servers can be found on in the 'Servers' section. This list only provides a base of servers which you are free to use. You can of course use other servers as well.

If players still can't agree on a server, please contact admins about it. Admin decision is final.

It works fine with duels, but it is hard to do same with 8 players .
And, personaly, i used to play with 12ms (really with 2-3ms) on most russian servers and don't know how to play with ping 52 or more .
With best wishes, B1aze.
2006-09-20, 15:53
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Jan 2006
Blaze, that's not perfect. The difference between 13 and 39 is very gentle, but when you compare 26 and 52 it's so much worse... Like Renzo pointed: "Also QW is pretty playable up to 39ms, there isn't too significant difference in gameplay for the exception of LG's graphic presentation that seems to lag at 39ms but player should concentrate on the crosshair instead of the lagging beam. The real problems start showing up at 52ms and above and it is (at least IMO) considerably worse than 39ms."

But still, NQR minping rule is OK, why not use it in EQL? Why not change bad law for better one? What's the problem?
2006-09-20, 21:27
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Jan 2006
If we thougt the NQR rule was better then we would use it. We are aware of the flaw you describe but it is an extreme case that I've never seen in EQL. Remeber that minping is something bad and it should be avoided if possible. The NQR rule rather encourage the usage of minping and it makes more players suffer(!) from it. The NQR rule are not flawless either, lets say that a team have a starplayer and therefore suggests a server where he pings 13ms and the others 40/40/65 vs 40/40/40/40, ie avg is 40 and this is OK according to the NQR rules. I do think the EQL rules needs some work, but rather on the choice of servers part then on adding a use of higher minping values for more players.
2006-09-20, 22:48
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Jan 2006
Term, no one is forcing anyone to use minping. Rerouting will do just as good if you don't like minping. You call my example extreme and yet you give an example of twice (or more) as extreme case with teh 13ms starplayer... seems like lack of consequence to me.

I don't know what you've seen but since you aren't the one who suffers from ping and so you don't participate in such games I wouldn't be surprised if what you say was true. Still, the case I mentioned is _almost_ taken out from our (D2) first EQL4 game vs. ZOO (last Monday). They brought 4 players with ping 13-26 and we had 13 50 65 65 (wargamez). According to the rules it was all OK and "FAIR". They didn't want to agree to rerouting/minping so I asked our 13ms player to reroute himself to 50. After that finally we were able to enforce ZOO to reroute to 39, which actually still was kinda retarded since it was 39 vs 58 (average) but a lot better than initially. What actually was quite "FUNNY", after first game JKOVA said an admin just told him (that was you if I remember but might be wrong) that they NEEDN'T have to agree to rerouting since we got 13ms player, even tho he rerouted to 50ms. To be honest that was exactly the impulse to start this whole topic because I want it to be clear next time.

So please kindly answer me to that questions:

1) If we got 13ms player in our lineup is he allowed to reroute himself just to enforce the minping rule on the opponent? If he's not allowed that will mean we either have to use another server or use another player (what a pity for the player, he won't play in a game cause his ping is too nice, that's retarded if you ask me, really enforce sportmanship and fair play).

2) What if I propose for ex. lamicka (.cz) server, we got 50-70 there and most scandinavian clans got there 40-70. Do they have to agree or not?

3) Why not?

4) Is any admin in EQL equal to another? I mean if admin decision is final then if I call Highlander for example and he decides that our opponent need to reroute to 45 or agree to minping 45 before game can start will he still be admin after that decision?

5) The same question as 4) but admin decides we play @lamicka.

6) What if opponent call an admin too and this one says it's ok to play average 20 vs average 50 ? Which admin is right ?

7) Do I have to call an admin before every game just to be sure that game will start no later than one hour after it was scheduled ? Because it's exactly how it's gonna look if you ask me. In NQR9 we needn't had to call admins cause minping rule was clear and everyone we played had obeyed. That's why I think NQR9 minping rule is >>>>>>>>>>>>> EQL mingping rule. It saves time and nerves of both teams and admins. Isn't that what it all should be about? But then we got back again to questions from my #34 post.
2006-09-21, 05:09
Moderator
1329 posts

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Apr 2006
Quote:
Still, the case I mentioned is _almost_ taken out from our (D2) first EQL4 game vs. ZOO (last Monday). They brought 4 players with ping 13-26 and we had 13 50 65 65 (wargamez). According to the rules it was all OK and "FAIR". They didn't want to agree to rerouting/minping so I asked our 13ms player to reroute himself to 50. After that finally we were able to enforce ZOO to reroute to 39, which actually still was kinda retarded since it was 39 vs 58 (average) but a lot better than initially.

In my opinion, another server(s) should have been searched for. If there would have been none available, all the players who had below 39ms should have been rerouted to get that magical ping.

Quote:
What actually was quite "FUNNY", after first game JKOVA said an admin just told him (that was you if I remember but might be wrong) that they NEEDN'T have to agree to rerouting since we got 13ms player, even tho he rerouted to 50ms. To be honest that was exactly the impulse to start this whole topic because I want it to be clear next time.

This isn't right. Where's the fairness and sportsmanship in this situation where the opponent has an average ping of 49ms even though they have one lpb?

There isn't a really easy way to get this ping thingy somewhat working, since it also can be used to get an advantage in certain situations. However some guidelines should be set, for example that teams' average ping difference shouldn't be more than 15-25ms (ie 39ms vs 64ms). Also 39ms should be the highest minping value to be used and if all the players are from same country minping rules shouldn't be used at all since everybody gets their best available ping.
Servers: Troopers
2006-09-21, 14:41
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135 posts

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Jan 2006
Renzo wrote:
average ping difference shouldn't be more than 15-25ms (ie 39ms vs 64ms)

If you allow such big difference in rules then it's gonna only cause impossibility of finding really fair server (ie 50ms vs 50ms). Why? That's pretty simple, opponent won't agree to play at 'shitty' from their point of view server where it's 50ms vs 50ms if rules allow them to play 39ms vs 64ms at wargamez.

IMHO:
1) average pings difference musn't be highter than 10ms, the only depart from it could be if one of the teams couldn't get average ping below 60ms on any european server, then it would have to be 50ms vs whatever_you_got (ie 90ms ;P),
2) every playable (no packet loss, ktpro or ktx mod, etc.) european server must be taken under consideration, including those egzotic to most of you like .cz, .pl, and of course .de, .nl, etc.
3) what if at server X team A got average ping 45 and team B 35 and next best option is server Y where team A got average 25 and team B 50 ?
4) after choosing server if average pings difference is still higher than 10ms then worse pinging team may ask the opponent to use minping up to 50 or reorute,
5) 50ms is THE value imho cause it's very common ping for players from UK, Russia, Germany, Poland, 39ms is too low and feels more like 13ms so it gives too big advantage when team A got average 39 and team B average 65 (team A would have to reroute to 50), it would still be possible to play average 39 vs average 51, tho.
2006-09-21, 15:09
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Jan 2006
NQR rule is kinder to the higher pinging teams. NQR crew consists of a Portuguese player and used to be led by a Brit (i.e. me). We also used to have a prominent Polish player (Billy) and a Hungarian (Zero). EQL is mostly Swedes with low pings. That's why there's such a discrepancy between the rules.
2006-09-21, 15:22
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569 posts

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Feb 2006
as this is a european quake league, i think there should be a serverlist of maybe 10official servers. Serverlist should include only a few good servers in DK,DE,NL.


If teams cant agree:
whatever server from the serverlist where average is the most equal should be used. no minping (maybe).

good
people would know what kind of pings they can expect in their games.

bad:
need special rules for games including russians and .se vs .fi fights.
2006-09-21, 16:20
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Mar 2006
Whats wrong with max minping 39 ? just asking
2006-09-21, 16:44
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Apr 2006
plast wrote:
Renzo wrote:
average ping difference shouldn't be more than 15-25ms (ie 39ms vs 64ms)

If you allow such big difference in rules then it's gonna only cause impossibility of finding really fair server (ie 50ms vs 50ms). Why? That's pretty simple, opponent won't agree to play at 'shitty' from their point of view server where it's 50ms vs 50ms if rules allow them to play 39ms vs 64ms at wargamez.

In my case the 64ms was the maximum average ping against opponents 39ms avg (no matter how the individual players ping). Of course if there were a server with ~50ms avg for both teams then it should be used. On the second thought considering average pings of 39ms and 64ms is a bit high. It would mean that other team has 4x39ms and the other team has one 39ms player and might have few players even above the 64ms which isn't really good so lowering the avg ping difference could be a good idea. I wouldn't go below one frametime though, which is 13ms at 77fps.
Servers: Troopers
2006-09-21, 17:38
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Jan 2006
hafog wrote:
Whats wrong with max minping 39 ? just asking

Nothing. As long as you agree to play on server where I've got <= 39 .
2006-09-21, 17:43
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Jan 2006
Renzo wrote:
I wouldn't go below one frametime though, which is 13ms at 77fps.

13ms difference is fully acceptable IMHO, even tho difference (feeling, not numbers) between 39 and 52 is bigger than between 13 and 39 if you ask me. Still, it shouldn't be Scandinavian or anyone other privilege to play always with better ping, I mean if there is choice between 26 vs 39 at Polish server and 51 vs 39 at DK server then first option should be taken.
2006-09-22, 07:11
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Feb 2006
Who the hell in Scandinavia pings < 40 to Poland? Not anyone i've seen anyway.
2006-09-22, 11:02
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255 posts

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Feb 2006
Can't polish people use some of the Qizmos in their country to connect to Wargamez? Aster, D2 and Sobol Qizmos seem to add ~26ms when connecting through them to Wargamez. For example I have 51ms in Sobol and when I connect through Sobols Qizmo to Wargamez I have 77-78ms. People who have 13-26ms in Sobol should have 39-52ms in Wargamez when connecting through Sobol, right?
2006-09-22, 12:26
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Jan 2006
that's like the best thing I've read in this thread
2006-09-22, 13:29
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135 posts

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Jan 2006
menth0l wrote:
Who the hell in Scandinavia pings < 40 to Poland? Not anyone i've seen anyway.

Moltas, Rwx, most of Vets (http://qw.fragzone.com/eql1/matches.php?id=69 this is like the only game in EQL we played on Polish server - pings seems quite equal to me), ParadokS, Razor and many others.

Mli: they can and they use. If someone got 13ms @ these qizmo he got 39ms at wargamez. 26->52, 39->65. Most got 52+. Still, average 20 vs average 55 @wargamez is not equal so qizmos don't change anything.
2006-09-22, 13:38
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Feb 2006
plast wrote:
Still, the case I mentioned is _almost_ taken out from our (D2) first EQL4 game vs. ZOO (last Monday). They brought 4 players with ping 13-26 and we had 13 50 65 65 (wargamez). According to the rules it was all OK and "FAIR". They didn't want to agree to rerouting/minping so I asked our 13ms player to reroute himself to 50. After that finally we were able to enforce ZOO to reroute to 39, which actually still was kinda retarded since it was 39 vs 58 (average) but a lot better than initially. What actually was quite "FUNNY", after first game JKOVA said an admin just told him (that was you if I remember but might be wrong) that they NEEDN'T have to agree to rerouting since we got 13ms player, even tho he rerouted to 50ms. To be honest that was exactly the impulse to start this whole topic because I want it to be clear next time.

Ok thank you for being full of shit, to begin with. We didn't have a 13 pinger at any stage on wargamez. We had 2x26, 1x39, and one with ping fluctuating between 26-39 (a Pukinmäki connection which is technically almost as reliable as a kurwa connection). You had 1x13, 1x26, 1x50 and 1x60 iirc (the two latter ones might have been a bit different, around those numbers nevertheless). Then, when you tried to set minping with these circumstances and I quoted you the rules about you not being allowed to set the minping higher than your lowest pinging player, he rerouted to a higher ping AND you replaced the 26pinger with yet another pole. At that stage I consulted an admin and this was the response:

[23:59] <Term> minping should not be higher just because the rerouting.. to me that was obvious but apperently not for d2(?)

well, anyway, now the circumstances being your 39-50-60-60 vs our 26-26-~35-39, and we just wanted to get the game over with (time being over midnight in .fi), we did the rerouting to 39. Your avg ping had risen to ~52+ from the original ~37, ours to 39 from the original ~32ish. So, in other words, the circumstances were EVEN MORE UNEQUAL to you than with the original arrangements (without rerouting or minpings or whatnot).

Now, my question is, what's the point with that? Other than the usual "hi, we're from Poland and we're not going to start a game within an hour from the scheduled time. o kurwa?"
2006-09-22, 14:34
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Feb 2006
JKova it's a small detail you forgot , but my ping was about 65 when i was along on map ... and I used only polish qizmo . Stoned ping was 65+ like mine . Meyby im blind ? http://qw.fragzone.com/eql/images/screenshots/11.jpg
PEace
2006-09-22, 14:40
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Jan 2006
Actually you might be right JKova at least in the part about your pings. But as you can read I said "almost" and the difference between 13-26 (average 20) and 26-39 (average 30) is unnoticable for someone who has to deal with 65ms.

Still, since I'm leader of my clan I decide who plays any particular map/game, I hope you can understand that. Therefore I when I finally decided what squad we use for dm2 it was actually 13 50 65 65. That gives average 50 vs yours average 30.

You still didn't want to reroute or agree to minping, you prefered hiding behid shitty rules above sportmanship and fair play, so I asked our 13ms player to reroute to 50ms if that was the only way to get more equal pings for everyone. We set minping 49 so it was average 49 vs average 55 and started the game. That game was stopped after several minutes cause you suddenly realized that pings are almost equal and IT WAS SO WRONG, SO UNFAIR, WASN'T IT?

Then we got back to the start. After more pingwhine you "kindly" rerouted to get 39ms so it was average 39 vs average 55 (UPDATE: 39+50+65+65 / 4 = 55) since our 13ms stayed rerouted at 39ms because you wouldn't let him use his 13ms, would you?

Then, after an hour of ping whine we could start that, thanks to you. It still wasn't as equal as it should be but I was too tired to fight for more and sometimes smarter has to give up.

jkova wrote:
Now, my question is, what's the point with that? Other than the usual "hi, we're from Poland and we're not going to start a game within an hour from the scheduled time. o kurwa?"

The point of that, my dear Fin friend, is that you were so afraid of equal conditions that you preferd to lose an hour for ping whine.
Another point of that is I started this topic to get things clear because wasting time like that is last thing I want to do on QW servers.

But since there is no major reaction from EQL admins so far I slowly start to think they don't give a shit about it. So I will have to live with that and other clans like yours will have to live with that too if they don't cooperate. Sad, but easy and simple as it is.
2006-09-22, 15:29
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Feb 2006
It was more like this:

plast: minping 49 ok?
zoo: no minping, we will rather reroute
plast: ok
*countdown starts*
*plast sets minping to 49*

I hardly think the problem was pings being equal rather than you blatantly lying and going behind our back to set the minping.

Also i don't think you can blame us for the time wasted on ping whine since we didn't complain about ping once. We simply refused to play in Poland and refused a minping of 49 based on the EQL rules.
2006-09-22, 15:58
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135 posts

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Jan 2006
Funny, you call me liar yet you are the one who lies.

1) Lie number one:

zoo: no minping, we will rather reroute
plast: ok
*countdown starts*

This means I believed you would reroute but you didn't if the match started just after my 'ok'. You lied and though I wouldn't notice?

2) Lie number two:

*countdown starts*
*plast sets minping to 49*

It's simply not possible to set minping after countdown starts. It was set before countdown started and was visible to everyone on the server including your 4 players since this is not something you can hide. Yet you decided to start and break it after a while when thing weren't going well for you.

3) Lie number three:

"We simply refused to play in Poland and refused a minping of 49 based on the EQL rules."

We had average ping 55 (50 51 65 65). Current shitty EQL minping rule says only that minping cannot be set below the value of lowest pinging player in higher pinging team. So following these rules minping 49 was permissible.

Any other lies you want to accuse me of?
2006-09-22, 18:47
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Jan 2006
Bad loser
http://slip.4.pl/ - unblocking myspace facebook firewall
2006-09-22, 22:11
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Feb 2006
Whether it was set during the countdown or just before makes absolutely no difference other than one of semantics. Also if you just go ready all of a sudden after 40 minutes of arguing, we're just going to be glad you finally saw some sense and definitely NOT think you "assumed" we will reroute but decided to ready anyway (which would be pretty absurd of you). Little did we know you really did it because you'd already set a minping and hoped you would get away with it, which you did for a minute or two.
2006-09-23, 02:25
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Jan 2006
menth0l wrote:
you'd already set a minping and hoped you would get away with it

That part I liked most.
2006-09-23, 06:08
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Feb 2006
Oh so i'm wrong? Somehow the minping was there even though we hadn't agreed to it. YOU had set it and you also knew we didn't agree to it.
2006-09-23, 10:14
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370 posts

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May 2006
42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42

endless whine!
Custom maps for the show, episodes for the pro.
2006-09-23, 11:04
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4 posts

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Feb 2006
plast wrote:
You still didn't want to reroute or agree to minping, you prefered hiding behid shitty rules above sportmanship and fair play

When you sign up for a league, you accept the rules whether you have read the rules or not, and whether you agree with the rules or not. And, don't get me wrong, I do understand your concern about the minping rule, and discussion about that is always good.

But, as long as the rules are what they are, you are expected to follow them. If you don't like the rules, quit. Go ahead and start your own kurwa league with your own kurwa rules and see how many clans will sign up. You can even call it European Quake something because geographically Poland indeed is in Europe. But, technologically, it most definitely is not and this is a thing the majority of the european qw scene should not suffer from.

If this so-called sportsmanship means lagging unreasonably then I do not want to be a sport.
2006-09-23, 16:48
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Jan 2006
plast, i hope you know why an event called paralympics is being arranged? The reason is that the handicapped people wont drag normal people down with their disabilities. And no, I'm not trying to be rude but this is the reality. You're like a guy in a wheelchair complaining to a "healthy" guy that he should use one too.

Anyways in my opinion it's pointless to start dragging this thing in accusing others of lying and stuff like that, we should concentrate on the problem at hand. Which basically leaves us with the question whether or not to play with you in the future. And on this matter we should take some time to think how much we really do want to play this game considering the amount of clans and players.

And about the rules regarding pings, the game has existed for 10 years, and during that time there has never ever been a rule which makes all parties happy and it is also higly unlikely that such a rule will be invented in the future.

In this matter the word "fair" doesn't apply anymore, the word were looking for is whether or not this whole thing is reasonable.
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