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European Quake League
2006-09-18, 23:12
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Hi

I've been pointing the problem for a very long time now but no one seems to care...
The issue is EQL's so called 'minping rule'.

Quote:
Choice of server should be suitable for both clans. If clans can't agree on server minping can be used (/cmd minping xx). The value for the minping must not be higher than the lowest pinging player in the highest pinging team, unless both teams agree otherwise. If the clan with lower ping wants, they can reroute via qizmos to raise their ping, and thus minping won't have to be used.
Admins can however change the rules if they think its unfair in some games!
so if u got ping problems call on an admin.

This rule is, lets not be afraid of the word, kinda retarded (and DAUBish too). Why? It's either not obvious or just ignored but the rule says that for example such game is even (the numbers are players' pings):

TEAM A 13 13 13 13 vs TEAM B 13 50 65 65

It's not even. It's bullshit... So, what can do TEAM B to raise their chances?

Method 1) Force the guy with ping 13 to reroute to 50 and ask for minping 50. According to the rules such thing isn't forbidden. TEAM A will still get better average ping.

Method 2) Boot out 13ms player and get 50ms one, ask for minping 50. Still TEAM A got better average ping.

Method 3) Call admin? But what for? To read 'obey the rules' and use method 1 or 2 ? Waste of time if you ask me.

THE SOLUTION

It's quite easy but requires a bit of good will. USE NQR9's RULE:

Quote:
If a fair server cannot be found, cmd minping (or rcon sv_minping) can be set to bring the AVERAGE ping of the lower pinging team closer to that of the opposition. The maximum permitted value of minping is 50, unless agreed otherwise.

Clans can also increase their pings by rerouting using Qizmo. This is the preferred option over minping for most players.

If clans cannot agree on servers, minping or rerouting, an admin should be asked to resolve the dispute. The decision of the admin is FINAL.

Can you see the difference? Will you kindly change it or will I have to for the third time go through all that ping-whine-wars before every game? Please.
2006-09-19, 06:19
Member
7 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
I have a good answer , we must play in poland but the others teams with ping 60+
will not have a chance ? admins look at the problem from another site ? change rules for all ppl not for swe or fi with good conection . . . peace
2006-09-19, 07:19
Member
1754 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
as long as we can avoid minping most problems will be easy to fix with rerouting and pingwhine will hopefully go away
I can't think of anything more fair than average ping being 10-15ms at the most unless the higher pinging team agrees to something higher..
2006-09-19, 08:32
Member
637 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I think the major problem is Polish teams signing up with lame pings on foreign servers. How can you have the nerve to force someone to play on worse conditions because of YOUR fault (yes, kind of, it's your fault your lame connection sucks).

The simple solution to your 'problem' is not signing up when you have lame pings on foreign servers, because that's an ignorant thing to do
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2006-09-19, 09:52
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I expected nothing more from you, Goq. Seriously. You're just that kind of sad kid. If you have nothing more to add please kindly go make another k3wl youth whine generator etc. and spare me reading your bullshit again, will you? Thank you.
2006-09-19, 10:48
Administrator
1246 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
where is the "quality ppl" from the community ? all gone or tired ?
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2006-09-19, 12:42
Member
637 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
plast wrote:
I expected nothing more from you, Goq. Seriously. You're just that kind of sad kid. If you have nothing more to add please kindly go make another k3wl youth whine generator etc. and spare me reading your bullshit again, will you? Thank you.

I will always be that way to people who are rude enough to enforce their own rules on other's playground.
Do you actually get me point, or are you ignorant enough to still think enforcing YOUR OWN rules on others is a good thing to do?
I also had a problem with high ping before, and I never ever asked anyone to play on worse conditions, because I do so. It's a part of this game, you have a worse connection then you have to do everything to show your skill with it. Aaaaand by enforcing your ping on others (people, who are not used to that kind of ping) you simply destroy the spirit of the game. I realize you probably don't get me now, as for you FAIR PLAY = everyone has your ping, but there are other things you need to know about.

I will be glad to see the minping rule removed from the EQL. It's a matter of a clan's responsiblity to sign up for a league during which most of the matches are played on servers, that have bad routing to the clan's country.

That's my opinion, and I ask you to stop insulting me.
http://slip.4.pl/ - unblocking myspace facebook firewall
2006-09-19, 12:44
Member
791 posts

Registered:
Jan 1970
send a letter to your isp and tell them you are not happy with the quality of the service you bought...
(peering and routing is big business)
2006-09-19, 13:27
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Goq, FYI:

1. Last time I checked it was EUROPEAN Quake League. Neither Scandinavian Quake League nor other 'Hey Look I Got Low Ping at Wargamez and DVD' League. OK, so now we know where we stand. Good.

2. Last time I checked countries like UK, Portugal, Russia and Poland was in Europe. OK, now we know who's playground it is and how much ignorant you are when you claim these countries are not the part of it. Good.

3. Last time I checked there was no allowed server list in the rules. So, I could ask to play in Poland. Most Swe/Fin got 39-51 in Poland which is WAY BETTER than average 51-65 which Poles got @Wargamez. I don't think any Swe/Fin would agree to play in Poland where my team got 26 26 39 39 vs their 39 39 51 51. It would be SO UNFAIR, wouldn't it?

4. You're TOTALLY ignorant when it comes to concept of FAIR PLAY. In adults and 'quality ppl' world fair play isn't about "hey I got 13ms @Wargamez and you got 65ms but it's your fault so it's fair so lets play ffs cause I'm bettah anyway har har". What a mental child you still are if you think like that... Sad.

5. Last but not least.
> by enforcing your ping on others (people, who are not used to that kind of ping) you simply destroy the spirit of the game

So, when I'm enforcing myself to play with 50ms @Wargamez rather than play in Poland with 25ms where I spend 90% of my QW time, I destroy the spirit of the game, aight? Goq, you insult me with your ignorance. I feel ashamed that I discuss with someone like you, a pitiful selfish wannabe-swe Pole-boy, instead of someone in the charge, who actually isn't so short-sighted. Please stop playing a fool here, go to other topics or just get back to your preffered way of doing it with .spam bot, will you? Thanks.
2006-09-19, 13:52
Member
23 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
goqsane wrote:
I think the major problem is Polish teams signing up with lame pings on foreign servers. How can you have the nerve to force someone to play on worse conditions because of YOUR fault (yes, kind of, it's your fault your lame connection sucks).

The simple solution to your 'problem' is not signing up when you have lame pings on foreign servers, because that's an ignorant thing to do

Holy shit i'm agreeing with goqsane
2006-09-19, 14:03
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
If that's what COMMUNITY wants, I mean Menthol is NQR ADMIN after all, then I will really consider not signing up my team to EQL anymore. If that's your solution for the problem.

I'm still waiting for the EQL admins statement, tho.
2006-09-19, 15:24
Member
23 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
I've never hidden how i feel about clans from laggy countries forcing everyone to lag with them, agreeing to play only at ungodly hours and generally being a nuisance. In NQR i have to keep those opinions to myself and be objective. Luckily, NQR is not in progress so i can pretty much say what i please.
2006-09-19, 16:07
Member
85 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I have to agree with plast here. I don't think there's an official server list for any league saying that nordic servers are the only ones that can be used...

It's all a matter of common sense imho!

cheers
Mean Machine QuakeWorld Clan
2006-09-19, 16:18
Member
23 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
I don't think anyone is saying that. Not me anyway. What i'm saying is that it's silly that these guys are allowed to say "we will only play starting from 23:00 cet" and other clans are expected to just shut up and take it. The ping issue is another thing, i think it's ridiculous that just because some guy has 70ms everywhere except Poland everyone should have to play in Poland or reroute 5 times to double their ping or what have you. If you have a shitty internet connection, YOU should be the one to suffer most from it.
2006-09-19, 16:35
Member
370 posts

Registered:
May 2006
plast <3. If you, goq/menth0l, play in Poland your suckz0r connection won't allow ping lower then 40? (except raket he always knows!) Your bad! you suffer from it! Or play in Germany instead of Denmark.

I think this matter will forever go on anyway, with polish/portuguese being the victims since they are the minority anyway. Thing is some swedish people like to swe-whine and we should not deny them this!
Custom maps for the show, episodes for the pro.
2006-09-19, 16:41
Member
85 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
agreed menth0l, stating that "we will only play starting from 23:00 cet" is silly, even if its because of irl issues u should never impose something like that...and about the ping if its because ONE player then ofc I have to agree with u also. But I guess thats not what plast means.

cheers
Mean Machine QuakeWorld Clan
2006-09-19, 16:43
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
The problem is you can see only Scandinavian (Fin, Swe, Nor) servers and perhaps .dk/.est (which is almost Scandinavia too, anyway) and you think that if you got 13-26 ms there your connection rox and ours sux. The problem is that's not NORDIC league but EUROPEAN, and EUROPE is _quite_ bigger than Scandinavia. UK, Portugal, Germany, Russia, Czech, Hungary, Poland etc. - these countries have equal rights when it comes to EUROPEAN Quake League. If not then please kindly change the rules and/or name and you may be sure I won't sign up for it and you will live happily ever after playing with your Scandinavian friends with ping 13-26ms only. Fair enough?
2006-09-19, 16:57
Member
23 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
What about the 23:00 cet thing plast? Is that also your god-given right as equal EUROPEANS?
2006-09-19, 16:59
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
23CET issue connected with ping issue. If you want to play 21CET I say 'hey no problem' but only as long as you can accept playing in REALLY EQUAL conditions. Which in this case means UK server (50-70ms for everyone with no minping required), Poland (39-65 for you, 13-26+reroute for us), or any other server + your rerouting to our average ping, which will be HIGHER at 21CET than at 23CET. So as you can see 23CET is for your own benefit, so you can play at 39ms rather than 50-65ms. It's just as that simple really.

I know we are minority. So I ask - what's the problem then? It's not like you have to play 80% games in season vs. us is it? Look at current division 2. 11 clans but only 2 with the ping issue, one Russian and one Polish. So if you got 10 games per season and only 2 with minping 50/23CET I say wtf can't you bear it? 80% games with ping 13-25 and 20% games with ping 50ms is so bad perspective?
2006-09-20, 00:37
Member
791 posts

Registered:
Jan 1970
At the moment I see 267 european qw servers in my server browser. It can't be that hard to find one with equal pings for both teams?
2006-09-20, 04:03
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Sure it's not that hard. But you are missing one thing - Scandinavians don't play 'abroad' which means playing on server anywhere else than north Europe (.fi, .se, .nor, .dk, .est) cause they got 13-26 in these countries so why would they change that? It's their advantage after all and they are used to it! So asking them to play in .de, .nl. cz., .pl, .ru or .uk where they got 40-70 and we 50-80 is just waste of time. Admins are mostly Scandinavian too (got majority) so they share their point of view. That's why wargamez servers are most popular these days and are like the only logical choice for most clans from west/east/south Europe if they want to participate in EQL/etc.

I personally don't really see any difference between a) playing on some weird server where opponent clan and we got ~50-60 and b) asking them to reroute to 40-50 when we play @wargamez and our average ping is 40-60. Maybe the only difference is that wargamez is 'sure', no packet loss, pl spikes, no lockups during the matches, etc. That's why I preffer option a). But then again we get back to the main problem and it takes average like one hour ;P of whine before they finally reroute and we start. Vicious circle :/.
2006-09-20, 05:37
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Quote:
Sure it's not that hard. But you are missing one thing - Scandinavians don't play 'abroad' which means playing on server anywhere else than north Europe (.fi, .se, .nor, .dk, .est) cause they got 13-26 in these countries so why would they change that?

Bullshit. Of course they play elsewhere also, but most of them like to play "somewhere near" where the ping is acceptable. And the thing with the pings is that only Swedes get the "best" pings around scandinavia.

Most finns get 25ms at .se, 39ms at .dk and only some get 13ms/25ms.
Most swes get 25ms at .fi, 25ms at .dk and some get only 13ms.
Most danes get 25ms at .se and 38ms at .fi.

Pings to norway apply about the same as to denmark from other scandinavian countries.

And yes, EQL's miniping system is flawed if the worse pinging team has one 13ms player like in your example. In these situations admin should be bothered but I don't think there will be a situation exactly like you described.

This is the part where I say I could be "supervising" these things if I was an EQL admin (Sassa you reading this?). However in my current situation I wouldn't be able to check things too late since I have a work to do and I have to go to sleep in time so it would be more or less complicated in the late evenings.
Servers: Troopers
2006-09-20, 05:54
Member
405 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
plast wrote:
Hi

TEAM A 13 13 13 13 vs TEAM B 13 50 65 65

It's not even. It's bullshit... So, what can do TEAM B to raise their chances?

Method 1) Force the guy with ping 13 to reroute to 50 and ask for minping 50. According to the rules such thing isn't forbidden. TEAM A will still get better average ping.

Method 2) Boot out 13ms player and get 50ms one, ask for minping 50. Still TEAM A got better average ping.

Method 3) Call admin? But what for? To read 'obey the rules' and use method 1 or 2 ? Waste of time if you ask me.

Imo method 1 or 2 is correct, team A got average ping 50, close to 65.
<3
2006-09-20, 07:59
Member
26 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
One thing that IMO needs some discussion is scenarios like this:

A imaginary team has 4 players who ping 39 on their local servers and 50+ on ie. wargamez.
The other team has 4 players who ping 12 on their local servers and 26 on wargamez.

If minping is used to get the pings to 50+, then the first team is playing with a ping 12 larger than what they are used to (a 33% increase)
The other team is playing with a ping 39 over their usual (a 330% increase)

Now, the first team plays all their games (pracs, EQL games etc) with this 50 ping and adopt a playing style more suitable for it (much ambushing, a more tactical and position dependent way of playing). They might play at home with their 39 pings too (which again is only a 33% difference)
The other team plays all of their games (pracs, EQL, duels, quads, whatever) with ping 12 and rely more on shooting direct hits (which is naturally more easy with a low latency) and on using the LG.

Now the teams meet and now the highpinging team complains on the conditions and require the conditions to be FAIR so they set up a 60 minute whine on minping. And then minping / rerouting is used to make the game FAIR. ( 50 ping )
Naturally the highpinging team has an advantage in this, not only are they playing on conditions that are much more familiar to them than the other team, they also very likely have a more
suitable way of playing in these conditions.

So im asking: is this the fairness Plast is asking for? The team with worse connections and who live far away from the rest of the scene should have a advantage for the game to be fair?
2006-09-20, 09:14
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Your percentage ratings make it look much worse than it is in reality. Besides we should talk about lag being the amount of rendered frames that have delayed information. 13ms is 1 frame delayed where 39ms is 3 frames delayed. With a frame being delayed I mean the information shown on screen that is delayed according to frametime and pingtime.

Also QW is pretty playable up to 39ms, there isn't too significant difference in gameplay for the exception of LG's graphic presentation that seems to lag at 39ms but player should concentrate on the crosshair instead of the lagging beam. The real problems start showing up at 52ms and above and it is (at least IMO) considerably worse than 39ms.

From where I stand, I agree on NOT forcing players used to play with low pings to play at anything above 39ms because they are really not used to it. If your pingtime is only 39ms at lowest, then I imagine one wouldn't mind too much about having 52ms or even 64ms ping since one wouldn't probably use hitscan weapons too often due to obvious reasons.

It's pretty clear thing to me since I've almost always had at least 27ms (back in 2000) ping or lower and I've been playing with pings of 12ms-64ms and I just hate playing above 39ms due to my preference of hitscan weapons. Oh and btw, DISALLOW CMD MINPING since it fucks up the server and playability. Just reroute using qizmo and be happy with it.
Servers: Troopers
2006-09-20, 09:28
Member
405 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
It is stupid expect support and sense from 13 ms ppl.

Only Renzo post #22 was objective and give us real picture of "good connection".
<3
2006-09-20, 11:08
Moderator
1329 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
Quote:
It is stupid expect support and sense from 13 ms ppl.

Really good players don't actually care, take KOFF for an example. I saw them praccing at wargamez this spring because they knew they had to play there. They all had like 39ms ping. What about Interceptor, Hib, Fix and Griffin that won't (or didn't) ever complain about the pings?

But I still feel that players that are used to play with 13/25ms and who are forced to play at 52ms or more, have considerably bigger disadvantage than the players that are used to play at 39/52ms and are forced to play at 64ms for example. It's just something you can't deny if you actually have had any first hand experience of moving from LPB to "real" HPW.

Of course if one is really a good player then he won't mind because he would own anyway...
Servers: Troopers
2006-09-20, 13:07
Member
247 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
to everyone's knowledge. Most of Poles DO have 13-25ms on polish servers. By MOST I mean like 90% or even more. The rest lives outside big cities so they have like 25-36ms. Only very very veryyy small percentage of Poles have 35-45ms. So I think Mursu's assume is kinda not appriopriate.

anyway - I think, In case of such games, players with lower pings should rerout to 39ms and no more.

cheers
2006-09-20, 13:38
Administrator
1246 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
We will be talking about this in 2010

I must say, being a hpb, i agree with plast. But i also understand the pov of scandinavian players, being forced to play with 50ms when used to 13 also sucks. No matter the ping, its Quake its being discussed. Imo there's 2 ways of playing it: +forward and +back.

As someone said here, EQL is a EUROPEAN league. But yeah, there's the majority and the minority. now i ask, since when a player belonging to the majority has the power to decide for all in such a league? The majority may argue "im used to play with 13" and the minority may argue that as well. where we stand?

Imho the best and fairer solution is the good old ping fairness. Equal pings as much as possible, without minping. the majority will disagree about this. but the majority can prac "high pings" in other servers like uk, nl or ger, and this whole "im not used to it" would be solved.

but the majority should have the opportunity to say "NO! i dont want to play with "lame" pings. EVER!". why not creating a "Nordic Quake Rank" for these? The ones of the majority who would accept playing with 50ms vs 50ms could also signup for the European leagues.

just a thought



ps: majority = Scandinavian
never argue with an idiot. they'll bring you back to their level and then beat you with experience.
2006-09-20, 13:40
Member
135 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Renzo wrote:
And yes, EQL's miniping system is flawed if the worse pinging team has one 13ms player like in your example. In these situations admin should be bothered but I don't think there will be a situation exactly like you described.

This is the part where I say I could be "supervising" these things if I was an EQL admin (Sassa you reading this?). However in my current situation I wouldn't be able to check things too late since I have a work to do and I have to go to sleep in time so it would be more or less complicated in the late evenings.

Also don't forget that lineup can and usualy changes for each map if clan got more than 4 players, that also means change for team average ping so admin would be needed after each and every map. That's why EQL's minping rule schould be changed for NQR's one. It would solve all the problems and there would be no need for admin to come for most games.
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