Age :31
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Location: Ekerö, Stockholm, Sweden
https://www.twitch.tv/suddendeathTV

Personality and talent within QuakeWorld.
Misc  /  15 Apr 2010, 20:42
Drama it up!
The WinnerBracket Finals has been played and the winner of the winnerbracket part of the Ownage Duel Tournament was;

Milton!

Congratulations...
...but it could have gone either way.

It's not every Winner Bracket finals that gets so much drama!

What happened was that LocKtar somehow managed to beat Milton on Aerowalk after losing both ZTNDM3 and DM6, making the total score 2-1 to Milton. Next map to be played was DM4, in which Milton got the RA spawn (anyone suprised ?) but it remained tight the first frags. LocKtar turned it around to 4-2 in LocKtar's favor, controlling the map. After eating a little damage, LocKtar decided to go get the RA and refill his armorstack.

In the air descending down from YA to RA, the weird stuff started happening.

LocKtar started timing out, getting a complete interrupt in his connection. When he didn't leave RA, Milton went chasing after him in RA and found him timing out mid-air. Milton looked at him for a few seconds, then stole the RA. When LocKtar stopped timing out and got the connection back (which was about 10~ seconds later), the speed he had pre-timing-out was maintained and it brought him out of RA-tele to RA-exit. There he stood for a seconds, realizing he's back, so he typed "hahahaha" or something, thinking it was funny that he had to lag in the middle of the finals. When he was done typing, Milton felt like being a (copyright sassa) real ASHOLE, so he simply shot LocKtar down into the lava and LocKtar died, making the game 3-4 in LocKtar's favor, but with mapcontrol, RA control and shaft all lost in Milton's favor.

After this incident, losing the control, LocKtar never managed to turn it around again. He did catch up with Milton, but gave it away in a small fight at RA. After that, Milton controlled the rest of the game and won it.

As you might imagine, QTV went nuts and the drama started.

In my personal opinion, the game should have been breaked and restarted, since the entire game-scene was turned around due to the timing out which shouldn't be allowed in an official duel tournament (I don't know if it's included in the rules anywhere).

What the lag did AGAINST LocKtar;
    * Stole his control of the map
    * Killed him, taking away his shaft/armor/health
    * Stole the control of all the items
    * Gave his opponent all of which was written above


What the lag did in FAVOR of Milton;
    * Gave him control of the map
    * A frag, and erasing the only weapon LocKtar had against Milton - his shaft.
    * Control of all items


-

Obviously, though, LocKtar didn't care as much as some of the spectators (including me). Naturally, he should have just /break the game and have had it restarted. At least if you ask me. Sure, it would take away a 2 frag lead from him, but what's 2 frags on DM4 when your enemy (your enemy being Milton, as well...) is in total control of the map? ESPECIALLY if your enemy is Milton, considering how insanely skilled he is at controlling items.

Either way, he didn't. He has a way of being too nice to his opponents. Last Ownage, he agreed on playing on a polish server vs Avenger. And this year on a finnish server against a finnish player, when that only damages his own game. And not to talk about not reacting to getting killed while timing out. He needs to stop being so nice, definetly!

Anyway. The other three maps were a thrill to watch! DM6 could have gone either way if LocKtar would have shot at the mega spawn after getting the first kill. He didn't and Milton was fast on reacting and using that mistake to his advantage and did it flawlessly. The ZTN game was easily controlled by Milton and he won it with ease. Great games, apart from the last one!!

Results;

Milton vs. LocKtar:

ztndm3: 41 - 20
dm6: 18 - 1
aerowalk: 11 - 16
dm4: 15 - 9

--

My question to everyone else; what do you think should have been done on the dm4 after the timing out? Should Milton have used the opportunity and play unfair (since there appearently are no rules about it) and killed LocKtar like he did? Should he have taken RA and control of the map? Should he have waited for LocKtar to get back? Should they had /kill'd to both have equal chances on getting the control of the map after respawning?

What do you think should have been done? Bring the drama! Bring the rain!

At least to me, Milton is still such a great player, but his worth in my eyes was insanely decreased by an act like that. Especially when having the excuse "I have let too many enemies survive in important EQL matches only to be backstabbed by them seconds later as I walk away in the interests of "fairness".", as I don't know what EQL has to do with Ownage, especially since LocKtar doesn't even play 4on4. So yeah, I'm disappointed in how QuakeWorld's currently best player uses unfairness (read: unfairness if you ask me) to his advantage when he already has the upper hand in win/loss games, and being overall a better player than LocKtar. Worth adding as well is that if Milton would have done as he has done earlier in EQL, letting lagging people live and then gotten backstabbed, the blame of unfairness would have been on LocKtar instead. I guess it's a question of being the good or the bad guy.

We all have our own opinions about this, so share yours!

Great games and let's hope for a replay (apart from dm4 drama) in the Grand Finals?

/andeh

PS. Also I've got to add, to people like dmt - wanna go out sometime? Considering how you tried to do some sort of personal attack on me in QTV? You're sweet though, and I love drama but I think it's time for you to go home now, your dad is here. Say hi to him from me! kisses and hugs <3
Comments
2010-04-15, 20:53
'Especially when having the excuse "ive been treated unfair by so many people in EQL"'
I never said that.
2010-04-15, 21:00
Fanboy
2010-04-15, 21:00
There can't be any rule about this because it would be abused. Losing map -> disconnect -> break -> replay. Doesn't work.

You can't play "fair" because you don't know what the other player will do when he comes around. Maybe he would shoot you into lava while you write offering a break? Then you would end up losing for trying to play fair.

No. The only way to go about this is to be brutal and shit for luck to the guy whose equipment fails.

Avenger lagged against Xenic but no one went apeshit about that. And these games historically are never breaked, or am I wrong?
2010-04-15, 21:02
The best we can hope for now is a grand final without any hassle.
2010-04-15, 21:04
duels are boring so stuff like this makes them more fun
2010-04-15, 21:06
milton - I could have added "so it's my turn now, not gonna be fair and then being backstabbed the next second" which you also said (or something very similiar, not 100% about the wordchoice you used), which is technically possible yes if you would time out. I have no idea how LocKtar would react to that =)

blAze - yeah you're right. I didn't really think in those ways of people abusing it which is very true in human nature. I guess there's no way to get around it then in a good way, maybe to reset the spawns and just /kill? but that would also be abused if the person not in control times out. I guess an admin has to be present and make a real-time decision, I just don't see another way around it. Except for having this happen though, which destroys entire games and is so boring to witness.

edit: and yeah, I definetly hope for a grand final without hassle!

Great answers blAze, those are the ones us writers are looking for =)

Edited by Andeh on 15 Apr 10 @ 22:08CET
2010-04-15, 21:07
long live locktar \o.
2010-04-15, 21:08
http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4190
2010-04-15, 21:12
im sorry blaze i dont quite agree about that mentality i didnt see this game but if it was like explained in the post above i personally feel he should just hold up and wait outside and not take ra.. either that or offer to break.

it is up to each player to decide since there are no rules about it but if it was me i would like to win a tournament with STYLE and with 100% fairness i mean there is no money involved or anything.

and as already said since he is already probably the better player and would win without this incident he could have just played fair

there has been many games which has been breaked because of lag. but ofcourse
first step is for locktar to actually ASK for it maybe milton would have agreed to break then.
2010-04-15, 21:12
en_karl's point is valid. Auto pause in case of timeout might work.
2010-04-15, 21:13
Even tho I wanted Locktar to win you cant actually blame milton for doing anything wrong. If you want to blame something blame lockes comp/connection or whatever it was.

Its just really unfortunate that something like this had to happen at such a crucial moment of the game. I reckon it wouldve been a nice gesture by milton if he wouldve let locktar "live" but I know personally I wouldnt want to loose a game(if he would have lost ofc) with that kind of "what if" on my mind.

The only thing that couldve been done is a restart of the game but thats up to the players to talk about and decide(didnt actually watch the game so dont know what was said). Timeouts usually dont lead to restarts and i guess theyre kind of "part of the game".

Too bad I missed the games, really nice of locktar to take that aerowalk and it sounds like the dm6 was a bit tighter than the scores tell!

Hopefully locketopp will get his revenge later on in the tournament!
2010-04-15, 21:18
I would also like to see that autopause feature!
2010-04-15, 21:19
I liked that thread, en_karl! it's a good idea basically, especially for 1on1. maybe a little overkill for 8 players in 4on4, but definetly useful in 1on1 duels
2010-04-15, 21:19
this issue is pretty rare thou with todays connections.. so its not that much of problem.. seems unlucky it happened now though.
but when people had 56k modems and there was like at least 2 people that got timeouts each game it was a different story.. i remember there maybe was like 80% of all players that shot those guys that was timing out.. and maybe 20% didnt althou in 4on4 its different.. i think its more ok to shoot the enemy then.. since you cant really hold up what you are doing and if you dont shoot him it can totally get fucked up in his favour instead
2010-04-15, 21:23
We had one farce in ownage #2 because of timeout. http://ownage.qwscene.net/index.php?sid=5&mod=matches&act=view_match&opt=1273 . Lakso was controlling and leading the decider (dm6) and would have probably won it, but locust timed out and they replayed the game. A noble gesture from lakso but not any fairer in my opinion.
2010-04-15, 21:23
About as unbiased as a report from Locktar's irl mate is expected to be. You're way too close to this to be throwing your hat into the ring.

I particularly liked "He has a way of being too nice to his opponents. Last Ownage, he agreed on playing on a polish server vs Avenger. And this year on a finnish server against a finnish player, when that only damages his own game". This isn't even slightly relevant. It was either both players on 25ms, as was played, Locktar on 12ms on a Swedish server, or Milton on 12ms on a Finnish server. Oh how generous of him not to demand it be played on a Swedish server where he would have half of Milton's ping.

'Especially when having the excuse "ive been treated unfair by so many people in EQL", as I don't know what EQL has to do with Ownage, especially since LocKtar doesn't even play 4on4'. Nicely altered quote to lose Milton's original point. He said something like he had let too many enemies survive in important 4on4 matches only to be backstabbed by them seconds later as he walked away in the interests of "fairness". If you can't see how the two situations are analogous, then you are blinded by loyalty.

Here are the facts of the incident.

*Locktar started timing out while in basically complete control 3:04 into the game.
*Milton eventually followed into RA to see what was happening.
*Milton stands on RA and stares at lagging locktar until he unlags about 30 seconds after he started, upon which momentum carries locktar through the teleporter.
*Milton follows through, sees locktar standing there, and ducks around the corner.
*Locktar stops to type "haahahahaha"
*Milton comes back, stops and types "gg" while Locktar types "sorry about that"
*Milton backs around the corner again and shoots a rocket as he goes which knocks Locktar into the lava, killing him as Locktar continues to stand there.
*The game continues until it ends ~6 minutes later with Milton as the winner.

Those facts are inarguable.

This obviously completely ruined the game. The question is "What should Milton have done"?

Well, when your opponent lags in a TOURNAMENT FINAL, it is not your responsibility to babysit them until they recover. I would have killed him with rockets, taken RA and set myself up at YA entrance to maintain control. Assuming there was no further incident, I would have played it out until it ends.

Milton made the mistake of not immediately killing him or completely backing off giving him room to recover his stack and control. He chose a sort of wishy-washy middle route which caused some suspicious-looking decision-making. If he had just murdered him and set up at YA entrance, no one would be talking like this, because when you lag it is taken as your fault, but he didn't.

There was a lot of confused backing up and returning. Both players started typing when the game was clearly still going, and no one really knew how to deal with the situation. In the end, it didn't resolve itself very well. 100% ruthlessness, backing away completely or /break are the only ways to deal with the situation, and no one is going to be happy with any of the compromises, as will be shown over the next few days.

Now for my own personal preference as to what should have happened during the game. Locktar should have asked for a rematch as soon as he stopped lagging, and Milton should have granted it. That didn't happen, so now it's a clusterfuck of confused, ill-defined etiquette that no one will ever be happy with. I guess we'll have to hope for a rematch in the Grand Final in order to wash the bad taste out of all of our mouths

One last point is that this whole thing could have been avoided with a simple, well-implemented time-out feature, but when has an important match ever been ruined by lag? Am I right?
2010-04-15, 21:24
Fuck me, that looked a lot smaller in the comment box.
2010-04-15, 21:28
Well razor it's easy to say when you are probably never going to be on that spot under that pressure. The real choices aren't winning by a questionable move and winning with "style", the real choices are a questionable move or risking losing.
2010-04-15, 21:31
First off I want to say that I don't think Milton did anything wrong. How can he know what Locktar will do when he's back from lag? Should he gamble, when he is actually under in frags as well counting on his enemy to be "nice". That also makes his comparement to EQL situations valid, cause human players are unpredictable, and as long as you act according to the rules of the tournament, you do nothing wrong.

However, I also feel sorry for LocKtar, which did a really good effort. He should imo ask for a break and see how Milton would respond to that. But he didn't, and I don't feel its right to force that responsibility over to Milton. I would do the same in his situation probably, but I would also accept a break if the opponent had asked for it. As Mawe pointed out, this just turn into a lot of "what ifs" and I think he also has a point that the only thing you can blame is LocKtars computer / connection.

Was awesome games, specially nice to see how well Locke played on aero locking milton down with his LG. Too bad DM4 ended the way it did, but it is really unfair to blame Milton or discredit him the win concidering he did nothing that validated any rules and it was, after all, the WB final.

At least I enjoyed the games alot, even the DM4.

PS: Locke: If you got an nvidia card, and don't set your cl_maxfps to sensible level, it might overheat your card crashing your game now and then. Could be a tip for your problems, but can't know for sure though. GL further on, I'm sure you'll give us some nice games still :-)
2010-04-15, 21:36
Somehow Stev's version sounds more realistic. I'm not happy to win the game like this and maybe we'll get a rematch in grand final.
2010-04-15, 21:36
Yeah I'm pretty sure my computer was overheating because of too high maxfps, and that is probably the reason I timed out in the EQL game vs Fusion. Since then I lowered my maxfps and haven't had any problems since.
2010-04-15, 21:36
Stev, I agree that my blogpost is biased in LocKtar's favor since I am a friend of LocKtar's. I am allowed to be biased in blogposts as they are my personal opinions, apart from e.g a newspost which is the face of the homepage itself, the blog is "mine" and here being biased should be all fine.

Just like yours is biased, being sort of a padawan of Milton's, you're also perfectly allowed to be biased in his favor. It's natural and I have nothing against that =)

I know myself would have act differently, I would not do anything that could change the current situation of the game and just waited for an "OK, go", but then again I'm new to QW and this was how duels were played out in the Quake 3 mod that I played before I started playing quakeworld, so it's human nature to me which it might not be to the ASHOLES (once again copyright sassa:c) in QuakeWorld.

All I'm saying is that to ME, Andeh, I think what Milton did was not fair and that it could have been done in a much nicer way that would also not ruin the game. But then again, it created drama which I know most people enjoy so why not?

I also agree that LocKtar should have asked for a restart of the game, and I also think Milton would have granted it if he did ask for it.

And one last agreement would be that the timeout feature that was discussed in the thread en_karl posted would have saved the outcome of this game. I haven't been around that long, but I've never seen an important game be decided the same way this one was, to answer your question. Let's hope this timeout feature could actually be invented =)

I will also edit the quote of what Milton said, as your words were better and desribes his point way better. However the 'excuse' is just as bad if you ask me.

Milton - I didn't see that game but that might have been just as interesting as the outcome of this one. Although, it didn't seem fair as Locust was the one timing out. If Lakso who was on top and had control lagged out, giving Locust the control and the win of the game, would it still be fair then? I think any game decided due to interrupted connections are to be saved one way or another. This timeout feature would save them all! at least in duels, thanks again en_karl
2010-04-15, 21:44
Its not miltons fault my computer is bailing on me, was not isp problem, my computer has a bad habbit of instant freez at random times, sometimes it ends up with a reboot..

What i would have done in miltons place? i would just have stood still.

But i dont blame him for keep on playing, its all on you own conscience what you do when nmy lag.
2010-04-15, 21:51
"Stev, I agree that my blogpost is biased in LocKtar's favor since I am a friend of LocKtar's. I am allowed to be biased in blogposts as they are my personal opinions, apart from e.g a newspost which is the face of the homepage itself, the blog is "mine" and here being biased should be all fine. "

What you say is true, but I am just as entitled to point out bias as you are to post it. You seem quite reasonable, though, and an article written moments after a messy, game-breaking situation in a bracket final is never going to be the pinnacle of unbiased journalism.

I say bring on the grand final so we can forget all about this mess.
2010-04-15, 21:57
I think it should have been breaked and re-played. But as long as locktar did`nt write break or said anything about it, the match went on, and it´s really up to the players to decide. Locktar is too nice as allways and I think Milton would break if he was asked...that moment was ofcourse crucial for the outcome of the match, which sucked majorly.

About Milton going into ra, taking ra, then killing locktar when he stood there at bridge obviously not playing, was in my opinion not very fair play. But as we see in sports in general. fair play is a rarity everyone wants to win, and Milton does not do anything against the rules.

The match besides that unfortunate lag accident was really nice, locktar proving that his highest level of duelling is atleast at miltons level, maybe even above it. Aerowalk was really strong, and he would probably take dm4 too without that lag thing, which ofcourse is only speculations. Then we would have a dm2 decider!! fuck!! that would have been intense
Milton on his side plays his stabil game, hardly ever making mistakes.

I really hope these two meet again in the grand final, locktar probably has to play some 50 ms matches to get there, which sux but hopefully he will make it back to face milton once again. These matches proved atleast for me that if he can maintain his highest level of duelling in the final, he can most certainly win the rematch vs the fin.
2010-04-15, 22:03
Not to forget though, Milton still is such a great player so even without this lag incident he could have won dm4, but now it was served to him on a silver-plate. But like everyone has said, it's not his fault that it happened and he also stated in a reply here already that he's not happy about winning like this which made me a little less pissed

But yeah, let's all hope for as great Grand Finals as these winnerbracket finals were, and that there are no computerhassle in that game! =)
2010-04-15, 22:15
Last comment!
2010-04-15, 22:20
NEVER hagge!!
2010-04-15, 22:30
Served on a silver-plate? Are you kidding me? There were still a lot of minutes left, locktar made some nice lg-kills, but fucked up in the RA battle later in the round -> milton wins. Silver platter would be later in the round or getting a huge amount of spawnfrags to seal the deal right after the lagging incident.

I don't think Milton did what was best in that situation, but it's easy for me to judge that after the fact and not playing. I would probably also be contemplating how to resolve the issue in a fair manner, but without putting myself at risk. I don't think I would've ended up shooting locktar _into_ the lava, maybe just backing off and shooting to his side to give me safety and go through tele. I also thought at first that maybe it was an accident, imagining that Milton wanted to shoot sg to signal to locktar that 'continue?', but had rl selected and that's all she wrote...

Would have liked to see dm2 as well. The other rounds were really nice, ztndm3 mainly due to the masterful item control by Milton, not due to tightness like the others
2010-04-15, 23:01
btw it's ASHOLS, ashol
2010-04-15, 23:12
"Well razor it's easy to say when you are probably never going to be on that spot under that pressure." Well actually after duelmania 3 i was in a similar situation. In the invitation cup for top16 when I was dueling alot and actually had a fair chance of winning i faced reppie in the semi finals and he won dm4 and i won aerowalk.. then decider dm6 it was a real thriller and he got some lag towards the end. If i had killed him when he lagged then I would maybe have won. But I didnt and I wouldnt today either. I would like others have said: stand still and wait for "ok go".
And the mentality to "shoot first before he shoots you" just is lame. Sounds like american philosophy to blow the hell out of everyone before they blow up you
So I think in duels it's not okey. In 4on4 it is. But the pause feature will fix it i guess.
2010-04-16, 02:52
sorry Zalon - ASHOLS =)
2010-04-16, 04:38
comon andeh. Ofc its the one with failing equipment that is at blame. It is not an opinion. It is a fact.
2010-04-16, 05:35
Well it's a bit different if you are playing vs your clan mate that you trust not to take advantage of your good will. The general rule in the universe I'm afraid is that no good deed goes unpunished.
2010-04-16, 06:36
who is this "she" you are talking about niomic?
2010-04-16, 07:00
Hagge, I think it's about this naked chick right here, http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/that's+all+she+wrote.html

I personally quite dislike these unwritten gentleman rules. Being nice and/or fair is a somewhat overrated feat in a player. I would probably frag the hell out of lagging opponent on a tight official game, and would expect nothing else from my enemy.
2010-04-16, 07:01
willgurht - yes ofc its the guy with the failing equipment that is to be blamed for the situation to happen in the first place, but there are a million ways for the opponent to handle the situation - be the good or the bad guy? =)
2010-04-16, 07:47
Thanks for clearing that out mipa boy! <3
2010-04-16, 07:48
Well I guarantee I would do the same vs anyone. Even if I hated the player. It's not about the opponent or what he would think of me. It's just me feeling less good about myself if I win taking advantage of someone lagging. (which isnt their fault plus ruins the game). And Milton also said he didnt feel good about winning that way, well he can only blame himself for that cause he made the choice to take advantage of it.
It can easily be avoided by just standing still waiting.
And about the backstab thing, I mean you dont have to stand In the face of the opponent. Just stand a bit away and then as soon as he stops lagging you can start play. There is zero risk of him suddenly killing you in the back unless you go to the bathroom or something.
2010-04-16, 08:26
@Andeh / FSrazor:

What is good / bad behavior is very subjective, and basing your views on your own conscience doesn't really add anything constructive to the discussion of what should be done in situations like these. Doesn't really mean anything telling everyone how you would react in those situations either, cause every person would act differently in some way.

This is were the rules come in, to be a common ground both players agree on, what they both signed up for, and to be the basis on how to behave and act during a game. Suggestions on what could be changed in the rules, and reasons for why they should be changed is interesting though. However making a rule that the opponent of the lagged out player should stand still until the lagged one comes back, or instantly offer a break is unreasonable for the simple reason its too easy to exploit in various situations.

I must admit the pause feature seems interesting, but there is also loads of things to consider there before mindlessly implementing such a feature in tournaments. In my humble opinion, we already got a good solution in these kind of situations; the players themselves are responsible for their own hardware / connection. If they pushed ready and is already aware that their setup might be unstable, they have already accepted the risk it involves. However, once again, I think the best solutions to the situation yesterday would either be:
1. Locktar asking for a break, and milton granting it.
2. Locktar asking for a break, and milton not granting it.
3. Milton asking for a break, and locktar granting it. (concidering locktar actually was the frag leader when he disconnected)
4. Just continue playing like they did.
2010-04-16, 08:59
Just frag away like there was no tomorrow.
2010-04-16, 09:03
Andeh, get back to cutting your veins :|
2010-04-16, 09:08
And now the real war began... swemo vs crazy polak
2010-04-16, 09:18
Razor, I'm pretty sure he would feel even less good if he lost after playing 'the good guy'. The common thing to all the greats is that winning is the top priority and everything else is secondary.

Milton probably thought Locktar is timing out completely so he didn't position himself in the safezone at lg, which would have been a better solution. Then Locktar suddenly woke up, Milton was positioned in a very risky place and had no idea what Locktar will do next.

For once I agree with Rikoll totally, personally I show no mercy to timing opponents, and expect none myself. If it was me I would have killed Locktar right away and collected as much shit as I could and position myself as well as possible. I am not going to start speculating things like this in the middle of the round. If afterwards when I can think objectively I feel I'm not happy with the result I could do as we are doing in EQL with SD and suggest a replay.
2010-04-16, 09:25
I just brought my opinion about it and what I myself would do. I assumed this is just a general thread and not a "solution" thread. I am well aware of that standing still and waiting for the lagged player cant be implemented as a rule.
But where there are no rules I am still leaning more towards the gentlemans kind of game. Since there are no money involved and the only thing you can win is "honor" and "feeling good about yourself cause you won".
You kind of loose both those things if you take advantage of these situations.
But well everyone can decide themselfs if there are no rules. And I might add I never get pissed if anyone shoots me when I have lagged, I mostly just think "bad luck". And then I will probably shoot that person back if he lags.
Anyways this drama have served good for a nice rematch in the grand final.
2010-04-16, 09:27
ye well i also think loosing sucks.. but still i just wouldnt do it
2010-04-16, 09:39
I guess it just doesn't suck as much to you as it does to others. When we lost to FS in some league, I had to quit Quake for 2 years because I was too pissed to even think about it.
2010-04-16, 09:41
2010-04-16, 09:44
hehe lol! ah well i can assure you im also extremly competetive and i absolutely hate loosing
2010-04-16, 09:48
Whats this replay of tvs-sd about? Did you try to play and it failed?
2010-04-16, 09:53
I think we've all pretty much agreed on that everyone would react differently in this situation and do what felt best for oneself at the time - it's on your on conscience what you do when your enemy is lagged out =)

everyone has the right to their own opinion and there's no reason to try to alter other's views on it!

@goqsane: DD I will! And I will be thinking of how badly dissed I just got by you! But oh, your dad is here now, so it's time for you to go home!
2010-04-16, 10:13
Yeah we played our map, dm3, vs SD. First bps timed out at some point, but came back almost right away. Then at 15 min mawe timed out, but couldnt get back at all, so we played it 4on3 for the last 4 mins or so. SD couldn't get a 4th for the 2nd map so first we agreed to play the rest of the maps another day. But then we discussed about it amongst ourselves and decided to suggest playing the timeout-ridden round and thus the whole game again. The last word is that we try to replay the game on Sunday. In all fairness I have to admit that if I thought we could lose this one, this might not happen. Now, we are just happy to play more Quake.
2010-04-16, 10:20
Selfconfident much? Haha no, I agree tVS are actually more dominant in the 4on4 scene than Milton is in the 1on1 scene, amazing how great tVS plays, every game, and not only sometimes
2010-04-16, 10:25
oki thx4info
2010-04-16, 10:27
Yeah I just wanted to make it clear that it's more about being an arrogant selfish brick than being fair.
2010-04-16, 10:30
yeah, I'm sure it would hurt to be fair
2010-04-16, 10:33
We created some drama, didnt we milton??? :>>

Its nice to see what people stands in this matter. Its like the good guys, who try to play as fair as possible judging from what it is atm, vs the "bad" guys, people who onlu see the win situations and goes by it. None of them are wrong just a matter of personality in some way? if i reach the grand final, i will NOT loose dm4 again!! roar!
2010-04-16, 10:39
Darkki timed out few times in kurwa league final and we lost the game cause of it. But since we are finns and champs no one cared and we just accepted the loss. I think Milton did the right thing... What if someone just pluggs off his network cable?
2010-04-16, 10:41
diki - hence the pausefeature would own of course, if the opponent doesnt get back in maybe 300 seconds or so, you should of course have the option to just stop the game or do whatever you want with it, but it would help in situations like these =)
2010-04-16, 10:44
Whenever Diki decides to comment on stuff he sounds more and more bitter
It is not the (quake)world vs tvs you know

You used to be more cheerful diki!
2010-04-16, 10:56
Pause isn't really a silver bullet, it gives lots of chances for gamesmanship by unscrupulous players. Like people pausing games by accident in important fights, or claiming they are lagged when they aren't just to catch their breath or take a wee. Not that most people would do those things, but there is always someone.

And even if the game is paused for a good reason, it is still unfair on the opponent as it breaks their concentration and they can forget the timings on items etc.
2010-04-16, 11:00
tVS had nothing to do with Kurwaleague.
2010-04-16, 11:02
This shouldn't have been a problem if we for once just implement auto-pause when someone is timing. Specially in 1n1. 4n4 is dubious, but 1n1.... c'mon.
2010-04-16, 11:08
Good job guys! whatever you do, keep the drama alive!

I'm pretty confident that Reload, if he were to be in Milton's position, he would have offered Locktar a rematch and then proceed to win it!

I'm also confident that Reload, in Locktar's position... he would have won that game even if Milton had control and he (Reload) would have timed out several more times!

But Reload wasn't playing in this match so we to make out the best drama with the material we have
2010-04-16, 11:19
Funny thread of comments. In my opinion it is not about whether his actions were against the rules or not. It does show what kind of personality he has... (the same goes for the other people commenting).

Some people say he would risk losing if he didn't do it and how would that make him feel afterwards? The ultimate priority is winning etc. etc. I think that is a bad observation, because it is the other way around. He should have asked himself: how would I feel if I win after such an action? If he didn't do it and he would have lost, how could that ever make him feel bad about himself because it was the fair choice? In that case (not shooting locktar and losing), the only chance he would have had to win, is if he would have killed his opponent while timing/right after timing. How proud are you then if that is the case??? Ergo, in ANY CASE it would have been better to not kill him and resume after a "ok go".
2010-04-16, 11:45
Not to disagree blixem, but it seems to me killing or not killing somebody timing out in qw (a computer game) shows up quite a few about one's personality )
2010-04-16, 11:45
hey blix! ye thats the FS spirit!
2010-04-16, 11:47
It's not that simple, while you wait, you lose precious time plus timing of items gets messed up etc. Things happen that shouldn't. So why should you take the disadvantage for your opponents failing equipment. It just doesn't make any sense. The round is always ruined when someone starts to timeout, regardles of what anyone does or doesn't after that. Even replay is not fair because you may get shit spawns when in the real round you got great spawns etc. Timeout always leads to endless ifs and buts so there is not much else to do than to take the advantage if you can.
2010-04-16, 11:50
Its just a duel anyway! 4on4 is where it´s at!
2010-04-16, 12:23
I just think it's a shame the admins didn't force a rematch, as it seemed to clear to me (and apparently most of the other specs) that what happened with Locktar was really unfair.

This seems unlikely but if it was possible to code what might be useful is a rewind/forward feature where you could just rewind the game back to the point where they started lagging. This could be done by admin and would eliminate any problems with autopause.
2010-04-16, 12:52
Why should admins force something that is not mentioned in the rules? LocKtar lagged, LocKtar lost... It's his fault he lagged, the rules doesn't take hardware malfunctions into account.
* I don't mean that it's literally LocKtar's fault that he lagged, but it is his own responsibility to have working hardware/internet connection.

Restarting the match by admin veto doesn't sound fair to any of the players, maybe LocKtar wouldn't want to risk getting a bad start? And Milton now had the control, wouldn't be fair to force that away, for something that wasn't his fault.

However, I would like to see a autopause feature for 1on1 when players start timing out, then all this could have been avoided, but then again.... The drama is great
2010-04-16, 13:44
well i had the same situation in my first(and also the last ) ownage game. I got the lead on the first map(ztn) and my opponent(Defcon 5) was timing out, i stopped when i realised it, and we did a rematch, where i lost. Im just a div95676732 noone here, so i can afford such a "dumb" act. Too much bullshit was written here by the fans, i can agree only with FSrazor, and ofc with Buffy cos he is my friend . Im a fan of Milton's movement and timing, and also a fan of Locktar's aim, and his oldskool config, and his weirdass attacks.
2010-04-16, 13:50
If you enable pause when someone starts timing out i will make a switch in my ethernet wire, so i only need to make the first frag. If after a few seconds of timing out pause get automatically disabled i will time it in order to get back in the game and unplug the ethernet again
2010-04-16, 13:51
(Just to make things clear, i'm not going to do so, but i wanna prove that pausing the game is not a good solution)
2010-04-16, 13:53
time!, and what would you win by doing this?
2010-04-16, 14:01
The point is that: Everyone would be able to do so, and if have a small frag lead and enemy is in control players could just unplug the wire and win that uber-important-9999$ match easily, which translates in a really bad implementation of such feature. If you're going to change something think about every consequence possible. In my humble opinion, there's no need to make clear rules about timing out players. Sportmanship is not a rule tu follow, is an attitude so just act as you want. The winner-player will take time-out in his advange. There's no proble, he have a bad attitude but he won. The sportman-player will stop and wait, or maybe /kill or offer a remach, so he may lose but he would look like a good and fair guy. Asc as you want, i would just wait until he is back myself, but if i timeout and someone gets the advantage of it, i won't care. He is not a sportman guy, who cares? Only him.
2010-04-16, 14:04
Did anyone understand time!'s point about autopause? I don't see the problem.
2010-04-16, 14:13
It will be a cheat, you will say, yes but no one will cheat in QW. But, as developers they can't make cheats.
2010-04-16, 14:19
No i did not. Why would pausing the game give anyone of the 2 players an advantage other than some extra time to think? And what would you gain from pausing the game when you have a 1-frag lead? Please tell me.
2010-04-16, 14:22
You actually win the match since the opponent can't kill you? When if you were actually playing opponent will probably come back if he is in control, easily. Specially in maps like dm4, with that kinda spwns
2010-04-16, 14:34
When the game is paused... the time is also paused.
Why do people come up with ideas like unplugging ethernet cable to get a timeout? What sick minds think a like? I can't possibly think of any players that would forcetimeouts by unplugging their cable?
And what good would it be? The game pauses and when they come back the game starts again? It doesn't help them in any way.
2010-04-16, 14:36
Ah lol, i thought the game time still remains the same. Sorry my failure
2010-04-16, 14:36
In QL tournaments the game is always paused when one player times out, either the opposing player does it or and admin. It works well. The problem now is that milton's win will be tarnished, I don't see how that is good for either player.
2010-04-16, 14:37
I thought: Pause means that players can't just move, not that everything in the game is paused ^^
2010-04-16, 14:51
gg , I hope noone else that is against autopause thinks that the gameclock should keep on ticking while the game is paused :E.
2010-04-16, 15:05
time!, what you describe is already in ktx... ktx has a setting for how long to wait until doing something when a player times out. Usually this setting is set to 5 seconds, the action the server should do is usually set to "warn", but it is possible to set it to invincible, and that would result in what you describe.

But that is by no means what we want to achieve, also on another note, Renzo changed ktx's default config yesterday, to 2 seconds and warn+glow during a timeout.
2010-04-16, 15:06
I saw the demos, and it was unfortunate what happened on DM4, but sometime later locktar regained control so it wasn't such a big factor. Milton is just dominating. Even LocKtar can't break through. And did you see the DM6? Who here thought LocKtar was going to win that thing? Just complete lockdown by Milton :X No offense locky
2010-04-16, 15:10
Also, the drama is nice, but my personal perception of the players has not changed, and I don't think there's reason for anyone to think different of these two after this DM4. I'm certainly looking forward to the grand finals, and to see if it can be a rematch, or if a new player will get a crack at Milton... It is true - Milton is dominating like noone else has dominated before. Maybe dag? But of course the playstyle is a bit different. Now Milton's LG is a lesser liability, and his routine and timing is unstoppable. LocKtar is so great, but he couldn't unlock. Although he did put up a nice fight on ZTN I'll give him that -- didn't give up!
2010-04-16, 16:07
I guess the autpause would of course pause time and everything, and also have a countdown to restart so both players could be ready to continue. It's still by far the best solution to this difficult problem, no matter what minor issues it may have. The timeouting player will always lose a bit of his game before the timeout kicks in, so it's very unlikely that anyone would ever do that on purpose, because it's always risky and has very little benefits.
2010-04-16, 16:09
Make a poll:

Would _you_ break a 1on1 game if your opponent lags out for a moment at a crucial time in the game (bearing in mind that you might win 1,000,000 EUR? - strike that!, Bearing in mind that you might win absolutely f*cking noting, except for glory and respect of 250 quake nerds? (yay))

Shit Yes
Fuck No
Maybe (not)
2010-04-16, 16:24
If a player would do something along the lines of Time's description then there surely must be possible to make enough space in the rules for admins to just kick that fucker out.
2010-04-16, 16:50
Honestly, time!, why did you even bring that up? Maybe that's how it works in whatever game you come from before qw, but trust me, this is a small community where most players on this level have known and played together for a long time. You have to be pretty fucking lame to even try and pull something like that off in todays scene.

Regarding the game I sorta feel for LocKtar timing out like that, although I have no doubt what so ever that Milton is the deserved winner in the end. His first two maps were a monster performance from him and his dm6 game impressed many. Just too bad the dm4 made way for this drama.
2010-04-16, 17:05
I was just saying that doing it withouth time stopping will be really bad, no matter if no one exploits it, but if time also gets paused, there's no problem with it.
2010-04-16, 17:35
94 posts? are you kidding me??!
2010-04-16, 17:45
of course time has to be paused as well, item-respawning and everything, simply like freeze the game on place if someone lags out until he gets back (and if he doesn't, autowin the game), i dont see how pausing the game could benefit anyone. of course it could break the concentration of one but I think it'll be pretty obvious if someone is exploiting the feature or simply lagging out due to equipment problem / failing ISP
2010-04-16, 18:44
I think time!'s brain was paused but he kept on posting.
2010-04-16, 19:03
Hehe poor time
2010-04-16, 19:03
Actually this many comments without much rage. That's impressive.
qw scene seems pretty lively atm
2010-04-16, 19:13
long live drama!
ggs both damn good players.
2010-04-16, 19:16
Kwibus - it's the mix of all that makes the fun!! some anger, some good people, some of everything =)
2010-04-16, 20:36
Did Milton bite Locktar’s ear off? No, because that would be illegal.
Did he kick Locktar in the nuts? Nope.
Did he do anything that is against the rules in Ownage. Nope.
Did he show good sportsmanship? Nope.
Was Locktar wining the game? Don’t know! But his shaft was tearing Milton a new one.
Are we all, including Milton, aware of Locktar’s sportsmanship? Hell yes!
Is Milton so afraid to lose a match that he would rather behave “unfair” and “unsporting”? Seems so!”
Does the explanation “Lakso yadada blabla in Ownage 2…” have any relevance here? Nope. And why? Because it was Locktar Milton was playing.
Does a comment “I do not like to win this way I hope we meet again in the grand final” have any meaning what so ever? Nope. Milton should have made the fairer decision while he had the chance to do so and not defending the wrong decision now.
Is Locktar lying when he says "What i would have done in miltons place? i would just have stood still." Hell NO! We all know he would!

I am aware that I am div 3 noob, but my love for this game is great and it is a pity to see the best player (by far) behaving like this. Had this happened against a low life QW lamerass, then we would all be laughing our asses off, but it happened to one of the most fair 1on1 top players in the current scene.

I have no beef with Milton (or Locke), I have enjoyed many Milton games and is very impressed with his strategy and timing. Milton is without a doubt one of the greatest 1on1 players of all times. With this follows greater responsibility. In my opinion, greater responsibility was not shown in this game. And please bear in mind it is not like Milton had to make decision in a blink of an eye (we can all make mistakes or mishaps), but he had plenty of time and he knew exactly what he was doing.
2010-04-16, 20:43
Where do people get this that Locktar is some model boy of sportmanship? Wasn't it just a while ago when his opponent asked him to ping up to _equal_ pings, and he faked with "say cl_delaypacket" "doesn't work" and proceeded to play the game with half the ping of his opponent?
2010-04-16, 21:04
Milton did nothing wrong IMO and it's a shame that he comes in for criticism from some quarters (admittedly not too much). It's not like he winnuked his opponent, that's an old swedish trick from the 90s

Yes, it's bad luck for Locktar but in an official game I would do the same - kill 'em all and let God sort it out.
2010-04-16, 21:49
Milton's just more used to 4on4 where things move a lot faster and there's no time to worry about killing lagged players (i guess). He just thinks "kill. report. kill. report".
Autopause should be renamed Antimilton.
2010-04-16, 22:05
Heh. Give me a break already with this "Locktar is the nicest guy in the scene" -bullshit. I didn't feel like coming forward with this at first but since everyone's bashing me we can aswell hear it.

'Is Locktar lying when he says "What i would have done in miltons place? i would just have stood still." Hell NO! We all know he would!' (c) Whimp

Maybe you know this. I for sure didn't. I've seen so much shitacting from him in the past that I have absolutely no idea what will happen after he comes back from a timeout. Against most players I would have known that nothing lame will happen but now I just couldn't risk it.

'Either way, he didn't. He has a way of being too nice to his opponents. Last Ownage, he agreed on playing on a polish server vs Avenger. And this year on a finnish server against a finnish player, when that only damages his own game.' (c) Andeh

http://ownage.qwscene.net/index.php?sid=5&mod=matches&act=view_match&opt=1255
http://ownage.qwscene.net/index.php?sid=5&mod=matches&act=view_match&opt=1268

Always too nice and fair indeed (and these sure aren't the only games with unnecessary ping difference). And don't say he wasn't asked to ping up. Of course when he had to play with equal pings in the final it was all wrong. On LAN he always wins, right?

And where was all this rant when Darkki was timing out in Clanwarz final? We didn't and we won't blame anyone from fusion for not breaking and taking advantage of the situation because it wasn't their fault. Cool down, take off your fan goggles for a while, make a reality check and maybe then you'll realize that not for everyone this situation was as one sided and as clear you seem to think.
2010-04-16, 22:25
Milton,

firstly, I do agree that the pingdifference in those games were unnecessary and I don't know why he didn't ping up or what happened during those games.

Don't really know what that has to do with anything here though. It's obvious tactics from your side to make sure to play on troopers.fi and not pangela/eq, especially not pangela for some reason. As you've said before, along with most div0 duellers, the servers feel different. 25/25 ping on troopers feels different than 25/25 ping on pangela. You are used to playing troopers, LocKtar is used to playing pangela. It's obvious tactics to keep LocKtar out of his game not allowing playing on pangela, denying him any swedish server. It's a smart move of yours and LocKtar is stupid not to react and simply deny all finnish servers the way you denied swedish ones, but that's his choice and he agreed to playing on troopers just as he agreed last year to play on some polish server with 50 ms. He could as well just say "No, and no. No no no." like others (e.g you) do.

About the DM4 game versus LocKtar, you're not making any sense really. No, LocKtar wouldn't have shot you in the back, but that's only assumptions and cannot be proven. However, if you feared that you would get backstabbed, you were NOT lagged out and had the choice not to stand next to LocKtar and simply take position e.g at LG, especially since LocKtar was typing at the time (making it a chatfrag as well), you had nothing to fear and could easily just continue going to low-tele instead of turning around, typing "gg" and then shoot him down.

To me and the rest of the LocKtar fanboys, you did something stupid. To the fanboys of yours (xenic etc and most of finland), you did the right thing. It's a debate that has no ending or right answer and is all a matter of opinions.

But even if I didn't know LocKtar, and didn't support him (and of course not knowing you either to make my opinion completely unbiased and not have grounds anywhere else than from the matter at hand), I would not enjoy seeing a top-tier player like yourself
  • * Kill a lagged out player
  • * Do any action whatsoever that changes the outcome of a game when the opponent is unable, due to lag, to do anything about it
  • * Chatfrag


Of course there are loads of other things I wouldn't like a top-tier player to do, but naturally just bringing up the examples that are relevant to this incident.

Edited by Andeh on 16 Apr 10 @ 23:26CET
2010-04-16, 22:43
I had to laugh about that nonsense about pings. What the hell are you talking about. I think Locktar has stable 12ms in sweden and Milton doesn't? Also since Locktar has a history of refusing equal pings, Milton probably denied him that chance by going straight to fin server and pinging up himself, to _equal_ pings.
2010-04-16, 22:50
And of course he had to agree to play Avenger in a server where they ping equally. Yes it's sad that in this day an age one has to play with 50ms but he didnt do anything that anyone else wouldn't have had to do as well.
2010-04-16, 22:57
Since when players have been able to chat while timing out? Pick one. After realizing he was timing out I was basically at RA already and time was running. Like already mentioned before, these timeout situations mess all timings of items and as I was behind in frags the clock was ticking for him.

I also had no idea about locktar's computer problems and thought that he'd time out completely. Then suddenly he starts moving without saying a thing (of course from the demo I can see that it's caused by the timing) and I still had no idea what's going to happen. So I followed him through the tele and probably should have shot him right there but for some reason I didn't.

There we were, standing five quake meters (tm) from each other and I still didn't have any idea what is happening. The lag had gone already like 10 seconds ago and if my enemy decides to start chatting and standing still he gets a rocket in his face. That's the way it has been as long as I can remember. Sure I could have stood there waiting for that rocket to come my way instead, but I didn't. Get over it.
2010-04-16, 23:11
Play a friendly dm4 and dm2 after the tourney, and be friends, drama sux leave it to the WoW players, we are honorable fighters(u2 are the best from us), not some harry potter fanklubb kids ...(Reppie, u are a fighter too, my favourite 1, get ur rl, drop ur magic wand, and leave the fairywolrd once for all )
2010-04-16, 23:42
This is intresting. First of all you didn't have any opinion/care when I said a couple of facts on irc earlier, then again you seem to have an opinion about it anyways (saying that after releasing this post is quite ridicilous isn't it?). While the same facts are listed here by div0-1 players you seem to agree to lick their asses about things which wasn't worth anything earlier. And then when you have licked their asses and somebody notices your tongue is brown you deny that you've just agreed with them. Nice going andeh and gl in the future...
2010-04-17, 00:17
"You are used to playing troopers, LocKtar is used to playing pangela. It's obvious tactics to keep LocKtar out of his game not allowing playing on pangela, denying him any swedish server."

This is the most disgusting pile of waste I have ever seen vomited onto qw.nu. Both servers are completely identical in every relevant way. The only different setting in the serverinfo is that Troopers displays "needpass 4". How could this be better? What possible advantage could it confer? Is needpass 4 a top-secret finnish trick to allow him to control spawns? Do you input a password to initiate 999 lagspikes for your opponent? Utter nonsense. Aside from Troopers being 9ms farther away from me, they are completely indistinguishable. I suggest you test it out.
2010-04-17, 00:30
I haven't had enough drama, keep it coming! \o/
2010-04-17, 01:07
Milton, read my post again please.

Itsinen, I have no idea what you're talking about actually. You didn't say much on IRC, except that you misunderstood why I "whined" for 5 minutes after the dm4 game.

Stev, I myself don't feel any difference, but those are words from your master Milton himself. Ask him if Pangela.se and troopers.fi feel the same (if pinging up to e.g 25ping on both servers). This information was given to me by Arnette during the game between LocKtar and Milton. I don't mind playing on troopers, but I wasn't the one playing the ownage WB finals either. If the servers are as equal as you claim they are, why wouldn't Milton play on Pangela then after being asked to do so by LocKtar? He said no. Don't give me some crap about that he was afraid LocKtar wouldn't ping up. It's so easy just to not /ready until he has pinged up. Anything else is just bullshit

Of course LocKtar would have pinged up to equal pings on pangela if asked to, such a game with 200 spectators on QTV, there's not a chance on earth he wouldn't :-) If you asked for it he'd probably do handicap 40 as well. But like I said, those were smart tactics done by Milton.

It's funny to see the community filter out the Milton fanboys and the LocKtar fanboys

Edited by Andeh on 17 Apr 10 @ 02:16CET
2010-04-17, 01:26
"I would not enjoy seeing a top-tier player like yourself

* * Kill a lagged out player
* * Do any action whatsoever that changes the outcome of a game when the opponent is unable, due to lag, to do anything about it
* * Chatfrag"

I would not enjoy seeing a top-tier player like LocKtar:

* * Fake as adrenaline because he said so in order to own me, because adren himself was unable to do it and had to call Locke because he was so pissed off, Locktar agreed, but he was captain obvious

This is just for all those LocKtar fanboys, he's not always that nice, you know?

Anyway, going back to the point, no one is perfect, and when you do something, you do it because you think it is good to do so. If they are OK with that match and scores, you can whine here all you want, but the scores will remain and no one will do nothing about. The only two people that are involved with it have no problems. Time to stop drama? Game is over, Milton won, how? it doesn't matter what would you do? it doesn't matter. What would LocKtar do? It doesn't matter as long as they are OK with everything.
2010-04-17, 01:54
Drama is nice, however, this is starting to bore me. Everyone just seems to spit out their gut feeling, without basing anything on facts and just care to support the player of these two they feel most connected to. It is also a problem that the major discussion forum on this matter is settled on a blog post of a IRL friend of LocKtar.

I adore both of these players for their skills and dedication of this game. Both players acted according to rules of the tournament. It is fucking ridiculus to take any credit from milton for winning versus the probably second best dueler in the scene atm. Enjoy the games for what they were, cause they were absolutely awesome. And for the love of fucks sake, if you got no better things to contribute with this than "imo he did wrong because blablabla is immoral", it is better to not write anything at all to not appear as quite retarded to reasonable human beings who actually base their thoughts on facts and conditions and not emotional first impressions. And also drawing the picture of LocKtar being the ultimate God of Fair Play is both irrelevant and somewhat untrue. "What if, what if, then that" doesn't add anything sensible to the matter, other than making other people who base all their opinions on feelings rather than thought to maybe take your side.

GGs, was awesome entertainment! Keep the hot games coming :-)

GL to both. You're both awesome.
2010-04-17, 02:13
"Stev, I myself don't feel any difference, but those are words from your master Milton himself."

Nice, pass me off as some brown-nosing, blindly-following idiot to excuse your own opinions. There is no significant difference between those servers as of this moment, except perhaps that I have less jitter to troopers. Maybe there was at some time in the past? I doubt things have changed significantly in the 24 hours since the games were played.

Some servers are quite different in several key areas (for example, compare xs4all to pangela), but these are not. Unless anyone can show me some actual evidence for any noticeable difference between them, I will insist that they stay off hard drugs for a while if they continue saying ridiculous things like "Xms here is better than Xms there".
2010-04-17, 02:59
Alright Stev, but if you were right, Milton would have had no problem whatsoever playing on Pangela. But appearently he did as he denied LocKtar's request to play there. Or it might simply have been tactics to put LocKtar out of his game? Anyway, appearently Milton has said that the servers feel different to Arne. Myself don't feel any difference whatsoever but those pro players probably do, and as we all know neither you nor me are pro players

About the brownnosing, you're just as brownnosing towards Milton as I am towards LocKtar, if not less as LocKtar is a real life friend of mine and I take it Milton isn't for you. However, if you ask me, neither one of us are brownnosers, we simply stand up for our own opinions and that's not brownnosing if you ask me. Brownnosing would be saying something in here to gain credit/respect/love from Milton or LocKtar. And I don't think either one of us is writing here to gain that

Edited by Andeh on 17 Apr 10 @ 04:02CET
2010-04-17, 04:30
Oh sorry Time!, missed your reply before.

Well using another nickname than your own in a fungame to mess around with you, or to do something like the other points in such an important official game is pretty much two different worlds :p

Funny though to compare them, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is as irrelevant as can be, but yeah I agree that was not very nice done by LocKtar, especially not if it hurt your feelings to be beaten by someone under the nickname 'adrenaline', I wouldn't like someone faking against me either but I just enjoy playing the game whoever my opponent is and whichever nickname he chooses to use. But it surely wasn't nice of LocKtar but it's got nothing to do whatsoever with how he would handle or react to such incidents in a game like this one versus Milton.

Oh well ^^
2010-04-17, 08:39
"Of course LocKtar would have pinged up to equal pings on pangela if asked to"

So this time he would be a good sport and wouldn't make a lame lie about cl_delaypacket command "not working" like he usually does? "Ok".
2010-04-17, 08:46
I don't care if even God Renzo would say otherwise, same stable ping is exactly the same on troopers, pangela or any other modern server with same settings. There is no magical difference, 25 is 25 is 25.
2010-04-17, 09:08
Stop this whine. I understand it went the way it went. I probably wouldn't have shot locktar on that moment, but I can understand it happened.
All this shouldn't have been a problem with autopause during a timeout. So make it happen someone.
If it's allready there then I've said nothing
2010-04-17, 09:10
Maybe Andeh should think about moving so he can get a new IP range and change nick. You have pretty much stuck this one in a marshland of fail.

It was "fun" at first but after your endless replies it has become clear that you actually think you are right about this. I am disgusted. A lagkill isnt the end of the world. Deal with it.
2010-04-17, 09:36
I think this discussion has gone a little overboard. The ping discussion is just rediciolous, i mean it was 25 vs 25.. just get over it, it was FAIR. Will some people think it was a bit lame to take RA etc? yes! (including me) and i think they are entitled to have the opinion. Was milton breaking any rules? NO and did he deserve to win? Yes defenatly. so end of story imo.
2010-04-17, 09:36
Anybody want a snack?? Or perhaps a life?
2010-04-17, 10:25
Andeh is defending something silly tbh, Milton made the right choice, at that stage in the tournament it's only LocKtar who can be blamed for what happened. If Lock wanted to break he should've taken iniative, he didn't so Milton used the situation to take control rather than wait apathic and take a dive into the lava.

All the 'what ifs' are bullshit, the ping/server talk is bullshit, didn't both players agreed upon playing in Finland? All that shit is absolutely irrelevant as it was agreed upon before the game actually started.

When you are in a duel you don't chat, when you are in this day and age you shouldn't time out. Blame LocKtar for not breaking after the time out and stop bashing Milton. And what I would've done, or anyone else, is irrelevant too! Lock might get his revenge in ze grand finale!
2010-04-17, 10:29
Andeh just for your information, I am no fanboy of neither one. I respect both players skills very much but I am not adding any comments towards any of them atm, I am just tired of your bs... if you can't take the crap then don't stick nose in too deep. And if you want any comment that actually has to something with Milt and Locke -> ask yourself the question: Why is it miltons fault that lockes computer jammed since quite many opinions seem to be based on that?

Personally haven't ever got a freefrag or rematch for a 5sec spike myself, haven't even been thinking about a possibility. Atleast as long as it is my own computer or isp that is fucking it up. Btw, as people talking about the pausebutton etc, some might have noticed that eql actually has a rule about a bad server, so the rest is up to the people themselves and their comps/isps, so that eliminates atleast some of the cases which are quite few. The same rule could be applied to dueltourneys aswell if they don't use it already, but imo it could involve only 1 big pl/lagspike -> serverchange. This would ofc not affect players isps/computers not working either. Just a suggestion if it's not already out there.

Oh, almost forgot, Andeh, you are so right, I must have missunderstood you really badly considering the whine since this whole post is about the same thing
2010-04-17, 11:07
I just watched the demo.

While I agree that despite the lag incident, locktar could've pulled it off, shooting a rocket into him was sooo gay...

If it was me, I would not break, because of a ~15 second lag, but I would INSTANTLY break the second he shoots me into the lava.

go bulat!
2010-04-17, 11:55
blAze wrote:
There is no magical difference, 25 is 25 is 25.

This is not really true, as everyone is using cl_earlypackets, you can have 25 on the scoreboard but in reality have 15-16ms.

So playing in your own country and using cl_delaypacket 1 or 2, just to get your scoreboard ping to show 25, can actually give you a ping advantage of 5-10ms.

This is true for me, if I play on foppa or wargamez, I have 25 on the board, but it's really 13-15ms. While if I go to pangela, I'll still have 25 on the board, but my real ping is now 23ms.

Now I would never consider that ping a major advantage, but it is however not the same.
2010-04-17, 12:11
So which players haven't stated their view in this matter? The commentating won't end until everyone in the qw scene takes sides Be

Fog: Sure! How much you want?
2010-04-17, 13:13
Thank you Zalon for an educated answer!

Oh Milton did win fair and square, after all he didn't break any rules, and he also won the dm6 and ztn extremely solidly. Milton is as well a better quakeplayer than LocKtar is, to me that is somewhat a fact, being such an intense spectator as I am :-)

I'm answering posts here when I feel that there's something I'd like counter or agree with, also called having a debate It's not like I'm trying to get the game replayed or anything Why would I do that considering both LocKtar and Milton are happy with the games? Would be another thing if one of the players were trying to get a game replayed, then there would also be people in the community trying to help that out, but both players are satisfied so there is no reason whatsoever to _DO_ anything now.

What we're doing here is debating whether _we_ think Milton acted correctly when he did what he did, about the lag and now about denying playing on swedish servers. If servers were as equal as some people here seem to think, I see no reason to why Milton would deny swedish servers.

But this is a debate! And it's interesting to see what people think and HOW people use their brains, this doesn't ever get old =)

So keep your thoughts coming

Besides, something that I'm sure Zalon likes, is that in case LocKtar makes it to the Grand Finals, the hype will be HUGE about that matchup and "LocKtar's Revenge", even though it probably ends in favor of Milton. Could be darn fun!!!

<3
2010-04-17, 17:24
blAze wrote:

I don't care if even God Renzo would say otherwise, same stable ping is exactly the same on troopers, pangela or any other modern server with same settings. There is no magical difference, 25 is 25 is 25.

If you are using cl_earlypackets 1, there is a difference, unless the ping to the server is exactly the same (ie. 16ms). Then of course player's configured fps affects cl_earlypackets, someone running 150fps has a frametime of 6,7ms (13,3ms,20ms,26,7ms) and so on, affecting the updates seen on the screen. Only the packet sending rate remains the same all the time (77fps = 12,98ms) but reading the incoming packets is really based on your maxfps instead of physfps, and it WILL cause a difference.

It's easy to test. On a server that gives you 12ms ping, add some delay_packet so that the ping will not stay 13ms, instead if goes to 25ms. (if you have 6ms ping to server, then add 6ms of delay). Strafe right/left and see how far the lg bolt lands from your crosshair, and do the same using earlypackets 0. Do not move your mouse, and you can actually make your crosshair so big that the lg bolt lands on the edge of it, then try the other setting and see where it lands again.


EDIT:

If pangela is more jittery than any of my servers (or any of the other servers), it is probably due to sv_mintic being higher than on other servers. In KTX 1.36 release I changed the value to be smaller to get rid of jittery rockets (from 0.013 to 0.01).

Edited by Renzo on 17 Apr 10 @ 18:26CET
2010-04-17, 19:33
And current earlypacket implementation aint optimal since it handles packages with different time intervals if max and min ping aint the same, therefor not optimal smoothness. Medar has started on a fix that ultimately making the client handle the packages at the same interval. Lets say you have 13ms min and 15max with earlypackets, the fix would make the client handle packages with a 15ms interval, resulting in a smoother experience (if you had unstable ping before).
2010-04-17, 19:34

Much Ado About Nothing
2010-04-17, 20:41
Zalon, it is the same unless you can prove that you can notice the difference, which I doubt you could. Feel free to do some meaningful blind test. Other option would be to ban earlypackets and then you can be absolutely sure.
2010-04-17, 22:19
What a bunch of retarded comments this has been. Nice trolling Andeh.
2010-04-18, 00:10
Trolling is teh shizzle!
2010-04-18, 18:37
Men pappa sa ju??
2010-04-18, 19:41
Du ska få en geeeeeeet!
2010-04-18, 21:35
last comment!
2010-04-18, 23:51
last comment (2)!
2010-04-19, 06:07
oh yeah?
2010-04-19, 08:19
I win, OK? You can stop arguing now.
2010-04-19, 09:43
Now entering: The Dark Zone
2010-04-19, 09:51
And how would you be able to win without playing interceptor? You better stop the inactivity right now!
2010-04-19, 10:18
hagge: It's only a game
2010-04-19, 12:53
so? does that mean you can still win without playing?
2010-04-19, 13:02
The Game. You just lost.
2010-04-19, 13:05
There are two people who can win without playing, me and Chuck Norris.
2010-04-19, 13:28
Dont mention yourself and mr Norris in the same sentence please.
2010-04-19, 13:31
It's not a problem, He has given his consent.

This message is Chuck Norris Approved.
2010-04-19, 13:35
It's easy to see that you are lying since Chuck Norris would never even have to approve anything, what Chuck Norris wants approved will be approved by itself.
2010-04-19, 13:49
Chuck Norris only exists if Hagge allows him to, though
2010-04-19, 14:09
Hagge is the result of Chuck Norris merely thinking about having sex with a certain woman in the south of Sweden. So its really the other way around Andeh!
2010-04-20, 15:47
Anything anyone ever says has already been Chuck Norris approved, otherwise we wouldn't see it! duh
2010-04-21, 17:50
Hmm, why is there so few posts here? We need more drama than this
2010-04-21, 20:41
2010-04-22, 07:05
The drama will only exist as long as Chuck Norris wants it to.
2010-04-22, 10:03
Dramaqueens!
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