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General Discussion
2017-04-06, 20:28
Member
15 posts

Registered:
Mar 2010
Not been here in a long long time,

I just picked up the quake champions beta and while it's ok - it's just not that good in my opinion. I still dabble in the very odd game of qw but even that has been awhile. It got me thinking as I normally do what's the point in new fps if you're a qw player, nothing ever comes close. (I generally play battlefield these days).

I've been marketing products and lead generation over Facebook for a few years now, made some big money with it too. I wouldn't mind having a go at bringing new players in just to see if it can even be done. What's the legality of the nquake package? is it fully legal or semi legal?

If I were to do this, someone other than me really needs to knock a better package together. While nquake is great it still (afaik) doesn't explain many things (such as weapon scripts - or have them on by default). A package which would somehow put a player in a newbie server whilst running an ad campaign, or set them up with a bot match and not have them having to type frogbot commands.

Something highly polished, I'd have to think over details but seeing as I don't play much anymore, input from other players would be better, I don't know. I don't even know if it would be worth it, I'd get a good idea how it's going after spending 500. A new trackable download package, and a tracked install would help immensely.

QW became part of me for half my life, just for the pure joy of it I'd be happy to do it

I just don't have the time to do anything else other than marketing what needs to be a well put together product/package

Thoughts?

chewz
2017-04-07, 09:46
News Writer
811 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
I think it is a very very ambitious idea. good luck.
2017-04-07, 15:29
Member
12 posts

Registered:
Apr 2017
I think people no longer play QW because people no longer play QW. So I don't think that there's a solution to QW's lack of popularity these days. The reason why CS:GO is so popular is because CS:GO is popular. People view game statistics on Steam and see that CS:GO is the most popular FPS and so they all flock to it.

The next biggest problem I see with QW is the player model. So perhaps you could use the 5k to hire a programmer/graphic artist to update the player models?. But updating the models is a tricky issue because many players have become attached to fullbright skins. If you're a returning player and you want to compete then you're left no option but to also use fullbright skins. And it's very difficult to make a nice player model that looks good with fullbrights. r_bloom can make the fullbright models look okay but nobody uses r_bloom because of the performance impact. r_bloom also effects many other things like the bright areas of maps, which can look bad.

Possible solutions:

1. Attach a bunch of glow particles to the current player model to make it appear as though it's radiating light.

2. Add a shader that only blooms the player model.

3. Ban fullbrights and make a new player model.


Finally, the 3rd biggest problem I see with QW is the obsession with high frame rates and monitor refresh rates. This can turn people off. So rather than go buy new gear so they can compete they instead go play games with nice graphics and that run at a capped 60 fps for everybody.

(Edited 2017-04-07, 18:21)
2017-04-07, 15:54
Member
90 posts

Registered:
Oct 2011
lemonjuiced wrote:
Finally, the 3rd biggest problem I see with QW is the obsession with high frame rates and monitor refresh rates. This can turn people off. So rather than go buy new gear so they can compete they instead go play games with nice graphics and that run at a capped 60 fps for everybody.


But isnt it the same in CS:GO? people debating 60vs120hz all the time. Also witch mouse/keyboard/chair/computer/underwear the PROs are using.

I think its gonna be hard to get new players to QW. Sad but true. Maybe if there would be tournaments with prize money and stuff more players maybe would put some more time into it. But the fact that most QW players today is around their 20-30+ I just dont think the kids of today are intrested in our game.
2017-04-07, 17:41
Administrator
2015 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Interesting idea!

My personal view with regards to nQuake is that it's a brilliant package but that its main problem is perhaps that it tries to do a bit too much at times, like under-the-hood magic in order to give a better user experience but which makes it harder to tailor because you don't really know what's going on at times. I don't agree that it needs advanced configuration though - why would new players even need weaponscripts when they would probably prefer to play with binds for each weapon instead of using weaponscripts, which is the case in 99,99% of the other games? The advanced configuration would probably come once they get hooked and are prepared to put in the time it takes to find out how things work anyway.
I would also switch off fullbrightskins by default (but keep "normal" brightskins) if presenting the game to new players for a modern, highly visible yet classic and coherent look.

The biggest problem is probably where to send players seeing as there's no matchmaking, but perhaps dedicated FFA servers filled up with very sucky bots would be a start.
www.facebook.com/QuakeWorld
2017-04-08, 04:37
News Writer
811 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
lemonjuiced wrote:
I think people no longer play QW because people no longer play QW. So I don't think that there's a solution to QW's lack of popularity these days. The reason why CS:GO is so popular is because CS:GO is popular. People view game statistics on Steam and see that CS:GO is the most popular FPS and so they all flock to it.

The next biggest problem I see with QW is the player model. So perhaps you could use the 5k to hire a programmer/graphic artist to update the player models?. But updating the models is a tricky issue because many players have become attached to fullbright skins. If you're a returning player and you want to compete then you're left no option but to also use fullbright skins. And it's very difficult to make a nice player model that looks good with fullbrights. r_bloom can make the fullbright models look okay but nobody uses r_bloom because of the performance impact. r_bloom also effects many other things like the bright areas of maps, which can look bad.

Possible solutions:

1. Attach a bunch of glow particles to the current player model to make it appear as though it's radiating light.

2. Add a shader that only blooms the player model.

3. Ban fullbrights and make a new player model.


Finally, the 3rd biggest problem I see with QW is the obsession with high frame rates and monitor refresh rates. This can turn people off. So rather than go buy new gear so they can compete they instead go play games with nice graphics and that run at a capped 60 fps for everybody.


There is so many things wrong with what you have said your post.

- There already IS a new player model that is updated with better animation etc. Look it up. Many people use it (I don't, but that is simply a personal preference thing).

- Fullbright skins have been standard even since the early times of QW which is 20 years ago. You could use all white or all red in software mode and it would be fullbright. All Arena based FPS games use fullbright skins

- Higher refresh rates and FPS isn't an 'obsession', it is a fact that it makes the game smoother.
Many people debate this and right now I will tell you exactly how to see it for yourself. Set your maxfps to 616 (one of the most popular settings used) and find an ammo box to look at. Move your mouse left and right back and forth and see how distorted, torn and unsmooth it becomes. Now set your fps to 1155fps and do the same thing. You will notice how much smoother it is and this is the same for all aspects of the game. Higher fps, smoother it is.

- You do not need a beefy or even modern PC to achieve high frame rates. Most people get bad fps due to bad configs. The configs that come with nQuake are extremely terrible at maintaining high FPS and most people base their configs on this. Many people double their FPS if they try my configuration. At QHLAN, with a single command, I was able to DOUBLE the fps that LocKtar was getting without has Quakeworld looking ANY different. In fact, I was going to do a blog post this weekend on how to build a dedicated QW PC on the smallest of budgets and maintain 1155fps at 1080p. I will still do that post, but here are the basic specs that you need:

* Intel Core i3-6100 or above (Disabling Hyperthreading the BIOS will give this CPU a big single threaded speed boost).
* 8GB of DDR4 2133 RAM. You could possibly even get away with 4GB
* Any SSD from the last 4 years but even on older platter based hard disk is probably fine.
* GeForce GTX 550 ti or above.
* Any monitor with 120hz or above whether it is CRT or LCD

You can build this entire PC for very little money. You don't need anything beefy or modern.

- 60fps and 60hz are fine for casual and console gamers but not for anyone who plays any fast paced Arena FPS if they want to be competitive.
2017-04-08, 09:50
Member
12 posts

Registered:
Jan 2017
+1 dirtbox

chewz wrote:
If I were to do this, someone other than me really needs to knock a better package together.

I strongly agree. Whenever I try and get someone to try this game, I end up zipping up my own personal install for them and giving them the choice between that and nQuake.

nQuake is a minimalist's nightmare. While it's good for the people that want what it offers (lots of prepackaged options for configs, textures etc with an installer / downloader), I feel it's offputting for equally as many people that want something barebones and to-the-point - but still a practical modern package with a good config, HUD etc.

I was brainstorming and quietly working on such a package myself, or rather I was focusing on making my personal one in a fashion that I could just upload somewhere and 'release' someday as a public nQuake alternative, but I kinda gave up on it, and it's since bloated out into a bit of a mess with no real choice aside from my own esoteric binds, hud, aliases etc. It's something I would be interested in maybe working on again, but there are without a doubt people in this community that would do a better job, and definitely should!

lemonjuiced wrote:
I think people no longer play QW because people no longer play QW. So I don't think that there's a solution to QW's lack of popularity these days.

Depends who 'people' are, really. Arena FPS does have a modern and relevant (enough) crowd, but they basically exist on a spectrum between Quake Live and CPMA, or Unreal Tournament, and the many clones of these families of games (Reflex the obvious one). QW is simply not something that is in the picture of what modern AFPS players associate with Quake itself, let alone AFPS as a whole, but there is definitely a gap in the market for an AFPS that isn't dominated by the railgun (which has become THE defining weapon of Quake for the modern masses) or Q3 style w-strafing movement (clunky, inelegant, harder to learn and easier to master, but modern Quake's trademark movement style).

lemonjuiced wrote:
The reason why CS:GO is so popular is because CS:GO is popular. People view game statistics on Steam and see that CS:GO is the most popular FPS and so they all flock to it.

The reason CS:GO GOT so popular in the first place is because it's a pioneering modern eSport with a very heavily funded team-centric pro scene and an item economy (skins). A lot of people in the current generation are disillusioned with the eSports thing and want to go back to basics with just playing games for enjoyment, but there aren't many obvious options (which is where we can come in perhaps). The immediate choices are basically CS:GO / LoL tier eSports money laundering, or the other end of the spectrum with completely substanceless stream bait co-op survival and sandbox games.

lemonjuiced wrote:
If you're a returning player and you want to compete then you're left no option but to also use fullbright skins. And it's very difficult to make a nice player model that looks good with fullbrights.

It's all about stylizing it. You don't even need to go to such lengths as to create new models and assets, just pick good colour schemes. Minimal doesn't have to look shit, we just need someone with some understanding of design and aesthetics (and especially colour theory) to have a think about how to make the game look good through settings. bps springs to mind ;-D

lemonjuiced wrote:
3. Ban fullbrights and make a new player model.

Banning things like that is a slippery slope and has killed off / heavily weakened some very good competitive games (look at comp TF2). Forcing the game to be less visually clear in the name of making it 'fair' for the people that want to have dark skins, distracting textures, particles and fog everywhere does nothing for the casual players and makes the competitive ones annoyed.

lemonjuiced wrote:
Finally, the 3rd biggest problem I see with QW is the obsession with high frame rates and monitor refresh rates. This can turn people off. So rather than go buy new gear so they can compete they instead go play games with nice graphics and that run at a capped 60 fps for everybody.

Similar to my above point, capping performance in the name of making it an even playing field is something that just shits on everyone involved instead of helping anyone.

Modern competitive games such as CS:GO run like shit to sell stuff. The crappier your game is optimised, the more stuff your hardware sponsors can peddle to players to try and get the most minute of performance edges. Goes hand in hand with the above point about letting people turn visibility-hindering options off, they are usually also performance-hindering options.

Netcode is a good related point here. QW is great because if your connection is good, it feels wonderful. If you have no packet loss and a ping under 60 or so, you're never ever going to feel cheated by the netcode. The downside is that if you DO have high ping and / or packet loss, you're gonna have a really shitty time, and you're gonna feel really crippled playing against the guy with his crisp perfect hitreg and responsiveness.

CS:GO on the other hand, feels like you're playing with constant packet loss even if your connection is flawless. It's not uncommon to shoot someone in the face multiple times, see clientside blood everywhere and then die, only to find out that the server just didn't register any or all of the hits you made. (you can go back and look at the demos to confirm client hits afterward, thanks to the engine's debugging cvars). The result of this compromise is that having 100 ping or some packet loss doesnt really feel much different to having a flawless 30 aside from things happening a bit later.

My tangent on netcode is to make a broader point that compromising on performance just hurts the game in the end, unless you're just trying to run a business and capitalize on as many suckers as possible by making the game too inconsistent for skill differences to be obvious, or to con people into overspending on their hardware.

Ake Vader wrote:
The biggest problem is probably where to send players seeing as there's no matchmaking, but perhaps dedicated FFA servers filled up with very sucky bots would be a start.

+1 to this idea, I'm heavily in favor of any and all options for vs bots modes. I think giving some TLC to Bloodfest could also be a good idea, maybe some kind of global score / stat tracking and leaderboards for a start. Things like this are good for newbies and veterans alike, variety is the spice of life, and having more options people can play by themselves or with any number / skill level / commitment level of friends is HUGE.
2017-04-09, 02:42
Member
67 posts

Registered:
Aug 2014
april 1st was a week ago
2017-04-09, 21:46
Member
3 posts

Registered:
Dec 2016
The only money qw needs is for events with a prizepool. Making it more competable.
2017-04-12, 12:38
Member
15 posts

Registered:
Mar 2010
I'm not sure prizepool money is the answer especially for someone who's never played before. I'm away at the moment just reading through the comments but it was no April fools, I'm serious about it but I don't have the time to be putting a perfect package together, I will make the time to reach out to people.

I guarantee I can drive downloads and get people opening the the package and playing with bots as a minimum. Some form of easy to do social share from the players who've already downloaded it would help too. A mini video captured of them fragging frogbots while quaded uploaded to their own fb account with some sort of message for friends to see. Or they hit a share button and a pre recorded clip gets linked from YT with a nice message and a download link.

Anyway if there's no point in trying I wont bother, it's nice to see theres still an active ffa server still but imagine bringing 1000 new players in, out of them maybe capturing 150-200 people who'll actively join in most nights. I could be dreaming but all I can say is im 100% confident I will drive downloads and have people open the game.

But the game/package needs to be well thought out, better than nquake.
2017-04-12, 16:46
Administrator
1011 posts

Registered:
Apr 2006
chewz wrote:
I'm not sure prizepool money is the answer especially for someone who's never played before. I'm away at the moment just reading through the comments but it was no April fools, I'm serious about it but I don't have the time to be putting a perfect package together, I will make the time to reach out to people.

I guarantee I can drive downloads and get people opening the the package and playing with bots as a minimum. Some form of easy to do social share from the players who've already downloaded it would help too. A mini video captured of them fragging frogbots while quaded uploaded to their own fb account with some sort of message for friends to see. Or they hit a share button and a pre recorded clip gets linked from YT with a nice message and a download link.

Anyway if there's no point in trying I wont bother, it's nice to see theres still an active ffa server still but imagine bringing 1000 new players in, out of them maybe capturing 150-200 people who'll actively join in most nights. I could be dreaming but all I can say is im 100% confident I will drive downloads and have people open the game.

But the game/package needs to be well thought out, better than nquake.

I love the idea. Not sure why people are so negative. To make something like that happen, what you can do is put together a wishlist (like edit your first post pr create a new thread an update first post there) or a plan on how it should look like or what it should contain. If not on that level then be very precise and specify which problems it should solve. Executing from a to z on a list is much more likely to happen if there's a plan stan
2017-04-12, 18:02
Member
6 posts

Registered:
Sep 2016
dimman wrote:
chewz wrote:
I'm not sure prizepool money is the answer especially for someone who's never played before. I'm away at the moment just reading through the comments but it was no April fools, I'm serious about it but I don't have the time to be putting a perfect package together, I will make the time to reach out to people.

I guarantee I can drive downloads and get people opening the the package and playing with bots as a minimum. Some form of easy to do social share from the players who've already downloaded it would help too. A mini video captured of them fragging frogbots while quaded uploaded to their own fb account with some sort of message for friends to see. Or they hit a share button and a pre recorded clip gets linked from YT with a nice message and a download link.

Anyway if there's no point in trying I wont bother, it's nice to see theres still an active ffa server still but imagine bringing 1000 new players in, out of them maybe capturing 150-200 people who'll actively join in most nights. I could be dreaming but all I can say is im 100% confident I will drive downloads and have people open the game.

But the game/package needs to be well thought out, better than nquake.

I love the idea. Not sure why people are so negative. To make something like that happen, what you can do is put together a wishlist (like edit your first post pr create a new thread an update first post there) or a plan on how it should look like or what it should contain. If not on that level then be very precise and specify which problems it should solve. Executing from a to z on a list is much more likely to happen if there's a plan stan


Agreed - what is the plan?
2017-04-18, 06:41
Member
12 posts

Registered:
Jan 2017
I'm very interested and think I have something worthwhile to say / plan out in terms of A (not saying it has to be THE) package. Writing up a thread regarding that right now, so if you're also interested in working on that angle, keep an eye out.
2017-04-20, 09:51
Administrator
2053 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
The nQuake concept is legal, so it should be fine to advertise. I believe Id Sofware has even given it the thumbs up.
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