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2011-12-22, 09:31
Member
303 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
I've came back to QW after long time. I feel like f***** dinosaur or something. Times has changed in first person shooters world. Now i look back to heyday of deathmatch games - period from Doom to Quake 3 - and wondering what the hell happened?!

Todays market is dominated by casual friendly, slow fps games. I think it all started with CS, but CS was (is) million times better than recent Call Of Duty or Battlefield games. Even less realistic games, like Crysis 2 are made this way. Slow player movement (sprint button doesn't help, it's still slow), shallow gameplay, and domination of hitscan guns.

Combat skill is nonexistent. Aim is everything. It comes down to who pulls trigger faster, as death is nearly instant. In Quake games meeting of players from two opposite teams means usually (if they are both on the same level on skill and one isn't lacking health) ballet of rockets, jumping, and strafing. In these "realistic" shooters it goes like this: players stop to aim down the sights, pew pew pew, and after two seconds max one falls down. Usually the one who pulled trigger later.

Forget map and item control - nowadays, you start with loadout. There's no need to worry about armor and health ( it regenerates), no need to care about ammo, no need to "lock" the map to win. Of course there are gametypes with pickup items, but these are less popular. One level of depth is missing... it's like playing Q3 or QL iCA over and over. Only without strafejumping and running turned off.

The fact fps games are developed for consoles doesn't help either. Gamepad is one of worse options for fps games - seriously, trackball, touchpad and drawing tablet are better for them, and these aren't made for gaming. But to the point - slow and imprecise movement of crosshair means gameplay must be adjusted to it. Have you tried Quake Arena Arcade on XBLA? It doesn't have autoaim, and gameplay is the same as PC version of Q3. Result is you can't hit s**** with RG or LG on medium and long range, midairs and prediction shots (especially long range) are almost impossible. Strafejumping? Forget about it. Decent player can adjust to inferior controls but game will still play like parody of Quake... New games must adjust to these shortcomings of control input, to play somewhat acceptable - so they are slower, and filled with instahit weapons that kill within milliseconds. Also have autoaim (or "aim assistance" as console gamers call it).

Don't get me wrong - these things are good on console. But PC ports are left with the same design (minus autoaim) and gameplay, and have m+k controls. This produces ridiculous results - games are too easy, be it singleplayer or multiplayer... Some devs try to cripple mouse aiming - see Dead Space - to save their game from being too easy. It's stupid and cheap way of solving problem, and i don't like it, but most devs don't bother at all. Have you played PC version of Halo? I picked it up few years ago to see what the hype was about and played on Legendary (i heard it was so hardcore and ass kicking so i was curious) - died ONCE during entire play through. It was when Elites with swords first showed up, i didn't saw first one (spawned behind me). Elite AI was decent, but they were too damn easy to take out - strip shield with plasma then few shots to the head. Hunters were a joke - circle strafe and one pistol shot to exposed part - wtf?! I felt like i would have MUCH harder time playing with gamepad, but mouse made this game too easy and boring. I finished it to see if there are any challenges, spec ops elites were only minor upgrade over standard ones, and flood parts were easier than later Doom levels. Blah.

What did go wrong? Quake 3 was hyper-popular after release. Unreal Tournament too. These games were strong years after their release, but it seems no worth successor showed up. Painkiller was promising but it didn't delivered. Q4 was one of few decent "old formula" games and bring some fresh elements, but failed to be new Q3, some time later last big budget "classic" shooter, UT3, failed too. Quakelive is HUGE step back for Q3 community - most of updates included in CPMA client and ioquake3 go down the drain. It's gameplay is less polished (jumping over items...) and also dumbed down compared to vQ3. Community created games, like Open Arena, Aftershock, Warsow, Nexuiz (or whatever it's called right now), Alien Arena - are ghost towns with small loyal playerbase. Warsow is perhaps best example of how times changed - it was hardcore fps similar to cpma at first, then more and more tweaks were made to make it easier for new players, to attract them - simple movement, stun (sad, Warsow one on one fights were unique and dynamic with all this wall bouncing), more toned art style, better graphics, more objective based gametypes, weaker weapons... all of this, and it didn't helped. Many loyal players left the game after "dumbicitation". I was hyped about it a 0.32 times, it had perfect fast paced gameplay - then 0.4 versions came out and were mess, 0.5 too, 0.6 is somewhat better but still shadow of what wsw could become.

Quakes aren't in better shape. Q3 scene is in agony (last attempt to ressurect it, fraglove, failed to make change), Q2 and QW are closed enclaves, don't know how things are in Q4 but i think no better. Quakelive failed to be as popular as everyone predicted - it have dedicated playerbase, and constant flow of newcomers, but is still small. What happened? I think it was mixture of many things - communities elitism, shift from PC to consoles when developing fps games, people who grown up with quake/ut games giving up gaming, and growing number of new ones who were once "CS kiddies".

It's sad really. I think we, competitive fps fans, are dying breed. Question is, which game will last longest in reality dominated by casual friendly shooters. I hope Quakeworld. Or at least one of Quakes or their clones...
2011-12-22, 10:53
News Writer
1257 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
I really hate all the "hints" that show up in new fps games...

HINT! SHOOT THRUOGH THE WALL TO HIT UNSUSPECTING ENEMIS
HINT! LOOK UP TO SHOOT AT THE HELICOPTER
HINT! UNINSTALL THIS GAME
2011-12-22, 13:28
Member
364 posts

Registered:
Oct 2006
Try Altitude. Seriously. It's a 2D side-scrolling airplane shooter, lots of pure simple fun from the start, and yet there's a surprising amount of depth to the game.

It has some unique properties for a multiplayer shooter, I wish QW was more like that...

Playable with mouse, keyboard or gamepad. Mouse is better for aiming, but keyboard/gamepad have their advantages, and you can see top players using any of these.

You can choose among 5 plane types and further customize each one. This gives dozens of playable configurations, and you'll want to try most of these for yourself to get an insight on what to expect from the opponents.

Most games are rpickup type, you let the server assign you to one of two teams. Game begins immediately, no waiting for people to ready up. You can leave or rejoin at any time, bots are added and removed automatically to keep the teams roughly equal.

You can get frags and be useful to your team immediately (compare QW's spawn-die-spawn-die frustration). But the learning curve doesn't level out anytime soon: you keep learning new tricks after months and years of intensive play.

Excellent netcode, the game is perfectly playable at ping 300 and you hardly notice it.

You can use a low latency setup (120 Hz monitor, vsync off + unlocked fps, 1000 Hz mouse) to your advantage, but you can play and pwn on a 60 Hz LCD just fine.
2011-12-22, 14:07
Member
303 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Well, I was talking about first person shooters. I don't really like 2D multiplayer ones, like Altitude, Soldat and Teeworlds. Teeworlds got me interested when I saw PrimeviL made custom gfx for it (i believe this guy won't waste his talent and time on bad games) but i got bored quickly. Tried altitude, found it somewhat fun but it didn't interested me enough to invest more time.

Other "shooter" game i was big fan of is Freespace 2 - unfortunately, i couldn't get multiplayer to work on my network and played little online, at friends house who had direct connection (i was connected through LAN and couldn't get port settings right). Dogfighting was ultra-intense in this game.

EDIT:

I was thinking about "hints". I think they are present because many players are:

a)lazy
b)stupid
c)lazy and stupid

I remember, about ten years ago when good internet connection was luxury in Poland, we had internet-cafes on every corner. Usually more than ten PC connected to LAN. One was located near my school, so me and my friends went there often. I encountered many players, younger and older, who didn't bothered to change control layout and actually CHECK the control options. For example, when AvP2 was released, we played it much and many people didn't even know there was possibility to change vision modes, to change class by pressing F1, to recall disk after throw, about charging alien tail etc. They didn't know about predator high jump. Result was, when me and few better players who actually learned the game, totally raped others as any class we choose, we were called cheaters. And I'm not talking about total newcomers, these were people who came there often. I think hints are made for such people.
2011-12-23, 00:54
Member
252 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
You're preaching to the converted. Tell someone who thinks that simulations of grunt warfare, in which the be all end all is a few bullets swiftly delivered, are the epitome of skill and strategy. Demonstrate in an objective way why QW is superior, and that it's not a subjective preference. This thread is still active : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU
'on 120 ping i have beaten mortuary dirtbox and reload' (tm) mz adrenalin
'i watched sting once very boring and not good at all' (tm) mz adrenalin
[i]'i shoulda won all
2011-12-23, 15:40
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
I really hate all the "hints" that show up in new fps games...

HINT! SHOOT THRUOGH THE WALL TO HIT UNSUSPECTING ENEMIS
HINT! LOOK UP TO SHOOT AT THE HELICOPTER
HINT! UNINSTALL THIS GAME

I don't play many games. But recently I picked up Portal 2. The whole thing was like a long tutorial. Really hard puzzles never came.


Could the problem with Quakes be that they are not good spectator sports? 1on1 is pretty boring and team games are hard to follow. No spectators, no esport, no moneys.
2011-12-23, 16:14
Member
1432 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Yeah, the "keep it simple, stupid" rule went too far perhaps. Anyway, I think lots of text was written on other places discussing why the FPS area looks this way. I have only one message for people who are depressed by this state. The message is: be happy with what we have. Liked playing Quake 1? Go play Quake 1. Open up quaddicted.com, download modern Quake 1 engine and modern Quake maps and episodes, you will be surprised how damn entertaining Quake 1 singleplayer is even in 2011. Like QuakeWorld? Go play QuakeWorld. It takes a little more time to find opponent, but it is still possible, by just waiting on the server.

Kalma wrote:
Could the problem with Quakes be that they are not good spectator sports? 1on1 is pretty boring and team games are hard to follow. No spectators, no esport, no moneys.

For me all the starcraft and dota and what not games are damn hard to follow, yet there's so many broadcasts of those, even dedicated TV stations in some countries. Can't imagine how FPS games could be any worse.
2011-12-23, 16:25
Member
89 posts

Registered:
Oct 2011
JohnNy_cz wrote:
Kalma wrote:
Could the problem with Quakes be that they are not good spectator sports? 1on1 is pretty boring and team games are hard to follow. No spectators, no esport, no moneys.

For me all the starcraft and dota and what not games are damn hard to follow, yet there's so many broadcasts of those, even dedicated TV stations in some countries. Can't imagine how FPS games could be any worse.

Personly I think Starcraft and DOTA is real boring to watch, but looks like they are the top games in e-sports right now.
I like to watch Quake Live both 1on1 and TDM, QuakeWorld too, the only negative side on QuakeWorld is that I like more commentary. I really like QuakePhils videos when he commentate matches.
2011-12-23, 18:38
Member
303 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
Kalma wrote:
I don't play many games. But recently I picked up Portal 2. The whole thing was like a long tutorial. Really hard puzzles never came.


Could the problem with Quakes be that they are not good spectator sports? 1on1 is pretty boring and team games are hard to follow. No spectators, no esport, no moneys.

Portal 2 is prime example of consolified pc game. Some levels of original were frakking hard and required precise, fast reaction, possible only with mouse - console ports were altered to make these puzzles easier. Portal 2 on the other hand was build with gamepad controls in mind. That's why game feels too easy on PC. Also, sigleplayer is only sideshow for co-op. Good thing community is constantly pumping out awesome puzzles for it.

And 1o1 boring? O_O Watching 1on1 between skilled players in ANY Quake is entertaining. Especially if game is close and players are teasing each other a lot - it's fun to observe how they play, understand how they think, and what makes one win and others defeat. Only problem is, it's best to watch from 2 points of view, so jumping from one to another in streaming isn't showing everything.

I know I'm "preaching to converted" - but i doubt anything can change situation in multiplayer fps market. I feel there is no hope for "deathmatch type" fps .Making them free failed, making them more accessible failed, making them prettier failed, dumbing them down failed, releasing massive amount of top quality free content failed (see UT3 Titan pack), great community support failed (we pc gamers often are taking it for granted, but few people i know who convert from console players to pc ones are actually amazed that you can get loads of awesome stuff for free). I think only hope is that people will get bored with aimfest games somewhere down the line.

I hope that after Rage driving multiplayer nonsense id will produce next Doom or Quake with great "classic" multiplayer.
2011-12-23, 18:42
Member
485 posts

Registered:
Feb 2006
JohnNy_cz wrote:
Kalma wrote:
Could the problem with Quakes be that they are not good spectator sports? 1on1 is pretty boring and team games are hard to follow. No spectators, no esport, no moneys.

For me all the starcraft and dota and what not games are damn hard to follow, yet there's so many broadcasts of those, even dedicated TV stations in some countries. Can't imagine how FPS games could be any worse.

How much have you watched and played them compared to Quake?

In Starcraft you have birds eye view of the action. You can see the whole map. It's basically two dimensional.

In Quake you have complicated three dimensional arena and you only get first person view of one player. You need to have played every map yourself to keep oriented.

I've seen some Quakelive(?) on aerowalk and ztndm3 and it was alright since I've played those maps in QW. I could understand where the players try and need to go etc... But when a strange map comes on it's just a guy running and shooting somewhere.

I guess the upcoming kenya tournament is a chance to experience this.
2011-12-23, 23:31
Member
359 posts

Registered:
Dec 2006
Hooraytio wrote:
I really hate all the "hints" that show up in new fps games...

HINT! SHOOT THRUOGH THE WALL TO HIT UNSUSPECTING ENEMIS
HINT! LOOK UP TO SHOOT AT THE HELICOPTER
HINT! UNINSTALL THIS GAME

Somewhat ironic coming from a Quake player, a game that features centreprint messages like:

"You can jump up here...."
"Shoot this secret door..."
"You can jump across..."
2011-12-24, 19:16
Member
405 posts

Registered:
Jan 2006
Herb wrote:
I hope that after Rage driving multiplayer nonsense id will produce next Doom or Quake with great "classic" multiplayer.

I thought you already got, that noone interested in classic death match nowdays, so I surprised to see that sentence after all you wrote above

Don't wait such game from Id, you already have QL, does it have great success? no. Noone will do commercial project with classic game death match nowdays, since it is fail by default.
<3
2011-12-24, 21:38
Member
303 posts

Registered:
Jun 2007
yeah, I still fool myself that IF they would make such game with budget of Rage, and spend at least the same same money for advertising campaing (it could be not enough... maybe they should have marketing budget like Modern Warfare 2&3 combined), presenting such game as next best bad-ass thing (bored with slow ass games? want blood gibs and gore? want Satan's return to place in gaming he deserves? Buy XXX) it could succeed. I'll say, if not id, then nobody can save deathmatch games. Maybe guys from Raven and People Can Fly combined could have little chance...
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