http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AbwmJKkjaM

tbh replacing one of the tb3 maps with cmt1b/4 or whatever sounds quite olright

Is this?

http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql9/images/screenshots/24.jpg

And it wasn't the only time we won a map with a huge margin so don't blame it on dm2 or HIPS. At least in relatively new maps I could actually learn something instead of trying not to fall asleep during the game because of boredom.

No it isn't, which is precicely why I don't understand people who want to take the game into a direction where we have even more of that. Isn't that the reason we have divisions to have more equal games? Now people want games between experts in map x and teams that have minimal knowledge of map x... :S

I'm not against swapping an old map to a new one in the existing limited pool to offer something new to learn. But if you include all episode maps you can not expect to have pracced a map that will be played in a game for even a one single time beforehand, there is just so many of them.

I agree with what you are saying here, and i'd never even consider allowing all episode maps in a "serious" QW 4on4 tournament as a viable option. People should instead have a look at what other custom maps besides the CMT-series, schloss, ThatFlatDakothMap, grim and midcit that are available.

Edit: But, if you want "the usual" custom maps, then why not go with 7 maps instead of 5 to stir things up a bit, as a compromise.

Well at least for me it's that I'm more against a big map pool than new maps. Even in duels many people rely on one, two maps (out of five) and duel you could prac whenever you feel like it. How then, could you prac 7 maps in 4on4 at any reasonable level? It's a small miracle nowadays if you can prac even 2 20min rounds per session.

You won't know those maps like you know DM3, or even E1M2, i realise that. But perhaps it is worth to sacrifice a bit of the high-pinnacle-z0mg-level of play in favour of increased competitiveness on a wider range of high quality maps?

I'm all for keeping Quakeworld 4on4 in a serious manner, the allow-all-maps-approach is a bit gimmicky to me. At the same time everyone must realise that the 4on4 scene is in serious decline and i know that the conservative line has been kept so far, but perhaps it's time to try something else for once...

I don't think I can personally get anything out of that, but hey do whatever you think is best for the scene. div1 tdm is pretty much dead no matter what. All I know is that I really don't have time to play 7 different maps, if anything I should cut back the time in qw... :S

So it has come to this now. It's not enough that you actually threaten to not to play when things don't go like you want them to go, but you also convey the responsibility to someone else. You as a player, of course, don't have to take any responsibility of tournaments succeeding, right?

No wonder nothing ever changes, admins are scared shitless that noone plays their tournaments if they go make changes.


Now that's a nice suggestion, also the way it should be.

I vote using a random map generator for each match.
Practice on that! Mwaahaha!

Currently 66% voted for tb5, when 32% for TB3, 33 for each TB5 choice against 32 for TB3. Not all players voted, but 109 players, in QuakeWorld, thats a noticeable majority and can't change enough. But, admins must take the final decision anyway. I'm not sure if that maps are really good for next eql, or if people would rather prefer to change e1m2 with some "new" 4on4 map. TB3 + CMT1b & Midcit, played some cmt1b mixes and was fun as hell, really more fun than e1m2 for me. Midcit, never really played that map, but watched some demos, and looks fine for me. About replacing e1m2, don't think you want remove that classic map, i don't really like it, but is not bad either. Feels different that's all, i think we should keep it.

Edit: Replay #100 \o/

I couldn't agree more. At the moment tVS has one(1) clan to prac with and that's Slackers. With more maps in the leagues I hope more clans would dare to face us since at least some of those maps (in a 7-map mappool) would be totally new to us thus making it easier for other clans to beat us. I also think that we shouldn't allow all exmy maps because most of them, in my opinion, aren't suitable for 4on4 at all.

And regarding Fog's statement about custom maps not being good - I disagree. In my opinion many custom maps (cmt1b, cmt3, cmt4, schloss and ukpak2, to name a few) are even better than tb3 maps for 4on4. Of course it's just my opinion but I've played custom maps quite a lot and actually bothered to learn how to play them in 4on4, not just in FFA.

#100 you code one I create the tournament, seriously, do it!

/agree

#101

it is not wise to base anything on a poll with, currently, 112 votes, also the poll is flawed which has been said numerous times already...

also, the different suggestions to swap e1m2 or dm2 for another map is the worst idea ive ever heard. i dont really like dm3 but it is just as big part of the qw 4on4 tradition as dm2 and e1m2 and i wouldnt want any of the 3 removed no matter what. talk about trying to kill qw 4on4 with that kind of suggestion

face it, the other maps you all have suggested have all been tried and NONE of them really stuck. what can be the reason for that? i mean ppl have played qw thousands of hours and they could just as well have pracced customs BUT THEY DONT. heck we (chosen) even tried to prac cmt4 numerous times during EQL4 because we wanted that map as our homemap to score easy points (and this is what most clans will do if they get the chance). The only clan that wanted to prac cmt4 was Morituri and thats because they have played ANDROM9 (or smth, its like cmt4 prequel) for several years.

i cant understand why it would be any different now, the interest for new maps is still too low and you can bring all the evidence from cmt1b mixing this summer or nqr custom cups or other matches on custom maps. the interest to prac custom maps is too low and after a season that used the map NOONE plays it anymore.

IMO there are still a lot of players that can't even play e1m2 which IMO is the best 4on4 map there is. So IMO that mothers. As regards to tb5... CMT3&4 are okayISH.

cmt3 + cmt1b plz.

yeah, I know, I should kinda change KTX so there whould be map cycle (tb3 + cmts) and disallow map vote match breaking and such so you forced to play damned maps, and setup such version at least on wargamez

nazi way.

#108 ppl would just drop and comeback when there is a map they like

forcing ppl to play new maps havent been and will never be a good way
even when forced in leagues ppl just stop playing them as soon as the league is over

it is also kinda amusing how ppl are saying that cmt3 and cmt4 are or must be accepted by now and then you see posts like "cmt3+cmt1b plz", hehe cmt4 must be a very "accepted" map when ppl suggest cmt1b instead

it is evident that the ppl who are for using custom maps have way too diversified opinions on what maps to include in a bigger map pool. however, one could argue that eql should add 2, 4, 6 or even mor maps to make it tb5, tb7 or tb9 or more but thats just plain silly. most ppl nowadays dont even have enough time to learn 1 new map to such an extent that it would be fun to play it in a tournament.

just face the facts

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Players' responsibilities are playing their games and obeying the rules. I believe I have taken care of my end just fine. You don't need to convey the responsibility of deciding the rules to the admins, it is their responsibility.

Me not playing leagues with silly rules is no more of a threat than me not playing in duel tournaments. I don't owe it to anyone to play gamemodes I don't like. I do this for fun and as a hobby.

I believe that dropping the maps after leagues also has a lot to do with consistecny. After a league you never know what is the next trend. You can rest assured however, that tb3 will always be included, so time spent on those is never wasted.

blaze if you're gonna talk hobbies, hobbies often involve some discomforts and efforts that one could see as not worth it, but it's part of it unfortunately.
so why give that up purely because the direction of your hobby is going to change, you will still be competing which at the core is why qw is such a solid tdm game.

i do however agree with your suggestion of replacing 1 map out of tb3 (e1m2 lol) and putting in cmt1b or cmt4

That might be another reason for extending the map pool to even 7 maps - including four more maps would provide enough diversity to satisfy most kenya lovers, and the map pool hopefully ends up being less of a target for change than if only two maps are included.

I've given up on hobbies that simply weren't worth it anymore before. Most of us already do something that we don't like for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. For the rest of the time, I prefer to do something i DO like. Like playing a mix in dm3 for a millionth time.

thats more than fair, but instead of playing that millionth dm3, try starting cmt1b mixes like we did on xs4all, and before you know it you know the map inside out, its not THAT hard ;[
(i dunno how versed you are in the cmt maps so im just saying)

its your life however, and yes a hobby, just a more indepth hobby you shouldnt just give up on ;p

Admins alone can't make tournament succeed, you get that much, right? So yes, it is also players' responsibility to make tournament they signed in to succeed by playing their games, having sportsmanship, not complaining about everything there is.

Obviously these talks are still only pre-season stuff, but you already have taken an attitude stance against the mappool, you are already making it increasingly difficult to succeed. And only because of an attitude problem.

I thought everyone already knew my take on sportmanship.

I'm just trying to defend the way I like to play the game. I mean really, we have an awful lot of comments on this from guys who don't even play tdm? The only reason I complain is basically because playing low quality shit on obscure maps fucking sucks and as much as I like the game, I'm not sure I can drag myself through that for the "good of the community". I'm already willing to compromise on one new map because then you can prac it like you have never pracced before and maybe, just maybe, lift the level of gameplay above the "now where was that quad again". But 4 new maps? GTFO. We couldn't have pracced enough for that in our most active qw years, let alone now.

Some people can't accept that differnt persons have different ideas and choices.

you can lift the level of gameplay beyond not knowing where quad is pretty fookin quick ;p

5 games?

#118 is just priceless
what about not accepting the ones who likes to keep the map pool to tb3?

#112
taking away e1m2 is just silly, it is a good and well accepted map that has brought some of the most thrilling endings of all time

#116
i dont agree with the attitude stuff, it is an opinion that some ppl want to keep tb3 not an attitude. if everyone thought the same we wouldnt need a discussion like this in the first place.

#119
but it will take 50-100 games to get some decent teamplay going...